Bitcoin & Lightning - Would you pay for coffee instantly if it was possible?

[shadow12348]

Bitcoin was created to be a universal currency and lightning makes it possible to make completely P2P micro-transactions for a few pennies paid in fees.

Now let's assume for the sake of this poll that you could now spend your bitcoin that is under your control on your wallet, anywhere, by just tapping your bitcoin wallet (hardware or mobile) against an existing credit card machine and you are able to pay with bitcoin over lightning.

What I'm trying to understand and defend against a lot of the mass skeptics is this exact question - Would you use bitcoin as a currency if it was possible?

I believe, irrespective of the value, anybody that held bitcoin before 2017 would be in a place to spend it.

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[gentlemand]

I spend a fair bit of BTC. I tend to use it to buy items that'll improve my life. That way I won't be sad if the price ever reaches squillions of dollars as I got plenty of good use from whatever I bought.

Unless I had no alternative, and I do, I wouldn't spend it on consumables like food, coffee, fuel. That stuff eventually comes out of my arse, urethra or exhaust pipe never to be seen again, though it was certainly useful at the time.

The key to spending is earning in BTC. And those who bought for a lot less have earned more buying power in a sense too. If you've got it coming in then you'll be more inclined to spend it. If you've laid out your dollars in the hope of doing well, and are yet to, and underwent all that hassle to obtain it then you'll be far less willing to spend. You'll want to hoard.

A lot of attitudes and circumstances will need to change for it to see regular use as a currency. We're nowhere near it now. We may never be.

[timerland]

The problem is though, why? Unless you have a job or a stable income that pays in BTC, there is really no point to make micro-transactions using the lightning network, because you'll need to spend your fiat currency to buy BTC, and then use your purchased BTC to buy an item, when it would be easier for the vendor to accept fiat, so it's just a waste of time to go through that process (even if we are pretending there is no fee).

Bitcoin will likely never be mainstream and used to buy consumables because tap and pay is just easier and cheaper to use. BTC is probably better to be spent on items that are worth a bit, on sites like Amazon and G2a.

For crypto to be used in everyday transactions, the blockchain needs to be able to confirm transactions in seconds and also needs to have very low fees.

[foundthiss**t]

Bitcoin was created to be a universal currency and lightning makes it possible to make completely P2P micro-transactions for a few pennies paid in fees.

Now let's assume for the sake of this poll that you could now spend your bitcoin that is under your control on your wallet, anywhere, by just tapping your bitcoin wallet (hardware or mobile) against an existing credit card machine and you are able to pay with bitcoin over lightning.

What I'm trying to understand and defend against a lot of the mass skeptics is this exact question - Would you use bitcoin as a currency if it was possible?

I believe, irrespective of the value, anybody that held bitcoin before 2017 would be in a place to spend it.

from the moment bitcoin was out and then ethereum huge hype *SHADOW* was all over the web  while all of them cannot scale to mass adaption and only experts know this from the beginning and the people behind bitcoin also said this, that there will be problem with scaling,miners, and other very important things with the chain.

lighting network dont solve the scaling problem its second layer , read about it...

top experts and anonymous people together try to slove this as fast as possible, the same problem was exist with scalling the internet in the beginning...but it sloved.

what will crash the fiat money is mass adaption and scaling, btc and ethereum hold around 7-25 max tps per second. still you can buy car or home but scaling its the key to adaption and adaption lead to surge the price of crypto and crash the fiat money.

mit for example regularly communicate with anonymous  people to find a way.

the question is which protocol will solve this??

[dnprock]

I don't believe spending bitcoin for small purchases will ever happen. Bitcoin is settling into SoV narrative. It's an important driver for cryptocurrency adoption. Bitcoin will be used for settling SoV type of transactions. For example, I save money to buy real estate in Bitcoin. When I have enough and decide to buy a house, I'd convert my bitcoin into real estate. It encourages HODL behavior. Bitcoin exists because it has inflation nemesis, fiat currencies. If Bitcoin ever gobbled up all of the world money, we'd be in the same dark place as inflationary fiat system. In some sense, Bitcoin is as evil as fiat.

I think the monetary system will consist 2 contradictory forces: deflationary and inflationary.

Disclaimer: I'm working on a digital inflationary crypto (https://bitflate.github.io/post/2019/04/14/bitflate-cryptocurrency-with-constant-inflation.html).

[Slow death]

Would you use bitcoin as a currency if it was possible?

this is one of those questions that can be answered by another question, let's suppose the person had $1000, and took that $1000 and bought bitcoin, when that person bought bitcoin with his $1000 the price was $10,000. Months later this person sees the bitcoin price being at $30,000. this person will be very profitable... will this person take some of his bitcoin to buy a coffee and if this person can pay with fiat that does not increase over the long term? I very much doubt that this person will take your bitcoin to buy coffee. But at the same time we can have a scenario where the person is a miner, so that person will have no problem taking some of their bitcoin to buy coffee

[harizen]

What I'm trying to understand and defend against a lot of the mass skeptics is this exact question - Would you use bitcoin as a currency if it was possible?

.."if it was possible"... then why not? Besides, I already using it at some of the services.

But for a cup of coffee, how much the cost of it we are talking here? Is using and paying with BTC does make sense here or just pay it instead with some few bucks on our pocket which is for me way faster and convenient.

Will treat it as an alternative payment since on the other hand, I have other payment sources e.g fiat salary, credit cards. As much as possible, I will consider paying with crypto only if I'm run out of options.

[shadow12348]

I spend a fair bit of BTC. I tend to use it to buy items that'll improve my life. That way I won't be sad if the price ever reaches squillions of dollars as I got plenty of good use from whatever I bought.

Unless I had no alternative, and I do, I wouldn't spend it on consumables like food, coffee, fuel. That stuff eventually comes out of my arse, urethra or exhaust pipe never to be seen again, though it was certainly useful at the time.

The key to spending is earning in BTC. And those who bought for a lot less have earned more buying power in a sense too. If you've got it coming in then you'll be more inclined to spend it. If you've laid out your dollars in the hope of doing well, and are yet to, and underwent all that hassle to obtain it then you'll be far less willing to spend. You'll want to hoard.

A lot of attitudes and circumstances will need to change for it to see regular use as a currency. We're nowhere near it now. We may never be.

Hmm right. What do you reckon is the rationale behind crypto debit cards? For example, coinbase probably wouldn't launch such a thing if there wasn't a large enough user base for it, or not?

[gentlemand]

Hmm right. What do you reckon is the rationale behind crypto debit cards? For example, coinbase probably wouldn't launch such a thing if there wasn't a large enough user base for it, or not?

I'm sure there are a decent amount of spenders out there. By this point there'll be a lot of people sitting on free money. Spending free money feels jolly nice.

It's not the driver or cornerstone of this whole thing though, it's a byproduct of a reasonable size. And for some it may be the only significant amount of money they have so they may have no alternative but to liquidate some.

[1Referee]

I quite often do already spend my coins, both on and off chain. I'm not really that bothered by the $0.50-$1 on chain fees. I'm used to pay way more in fees than that through PayPal for purchases. An advantage is that as long as you include a decent enough fee, the payment processors the merchants use tend to accept them without a single confirmation, which means it's an instant payment on my side.

Lightning actually settles the transaction instantly and that at a fee rate of 1-5 satoshis on average depending on the number of hops.

When it comes to spending it's important to replace every satoshi that you have spent. I know it might not be the most convenient thing to do, but it's a great way to not lose out on future gains.

[hatshepsut93]

It depends on the timing - spending during the bear market hurts, because soon afterwards you'll start regretting it, thinking "those coins are worth 4-5 times more now". Spending in the bull run can also hurt, when in one week the price is already 20% up. I currently want to buy a few things, but I wait for Bitcoin to go back to at least $14k.

Coffee is a small purchase, so the effects that I described would only amount of a couple of $$ of potential value lost, but it can quickly add up if we are talking about buying coffee every day. So, to me this perma-bullishness definitely makes Bitcoin less attractive as a currency to spend. Maybe in 5-10 years when the market will stabilize, I'll be buying coffees with no regrets via Lightning Network.

[shadow12348]

It depends on the timing - spending during the bear market hurts, because soon afterwards you'll start regretting it, thinking "those coins are worth 4-5 times more now". Spending in the bull run can also hurt, when in one week the price is already 20% up. I currently want to buy a few things, but I wait for Bitcoin to go back to at least $14k.

In this situation, wouldn't you want to spend your current profits on a purchase and purchase BTC to cover up the amount you spent? Or are you more interested in HODL-ing?

[hatshepsut93]

It depends on the timing - spending during the bear market hurts, because soon afterwards you'll start regretting it, thinking "those coins are worth 4-5 times more now". Spending in the bull run can also hurt, when in one week the price is already 20% up. I currently want to buy a few things, but I wait for Bitcoin to go back to at least $14k.

In this situation, wouldn't you want to spend your current profits on a purchase and purchase BTC to cover up the amount you spent? Or are you more interested in HODL-ing?

I convert most of my fiat into BTC regardless, and often times when I want to make a bigger purchase, I have to sell some BTC to get money. So, I can't buyback coins that I spend like many people advice, and it affects my spending habits. I still do spend Bitcoin, because all these years without buying anything for myself would suck, but I'm being very conservative with it.

[Dannaey]

That is the very purpose of Bitcoin, to become the first digital currency accepted by the whole world. Wherein in every day of our lives, instead of using cash for buying stuff, we use Bitcoin. I cannot wait to see that to happen. Here in our country, many people prefer now to use a credit card or debit card instead of paying in cash because it's more convenient and safe to bring.

[gentlemand]

That is the very purpose of Bitcoin, to become the first digital currency accepted by the whole world.

It doesn't matter what the original purpose was. What counts is what the collective decides it's going to be. At the moment it's not a currency. Maybe we'll move towards it but it's far from being in the bag. The most likely is still gold 2.0 but things could pivot again.

[BitHodler]

I would love to see more places where I can spend Bitcoin without having to deal with the main-chain. It's quite sad to see how far away we have moved from the payment aspect because of how small the blocks are.

Especially during a time where the price has gone up considerably, it would motivate me more to spend Bitcoin because it exempts me from paying tax in a legal manner. Much better than paying almost 30% in tax over your gains.

That being said, the motivation to spend coins quickly vanishes the moment we enter a bear market, which means that spending Bitcoin for most people is kinda a seasonal thing.

[d5000]

The key to spending is earning in BTC.

That's the key question: If the Bitcoin evolves into a circular one, where spenders earn most Bitcoins they have (and do not buy them at exchanges), then - and only then - Bitcoin can also evolve into a currency.

LN can be a crucial element here: Lightning is a tool which is able to facilitate some purchases, and once it becomes established there could be a "domino effect", encouraging spending in a very similar way to what prepaid cards achieve. The coins you have locked one time on LN, are coins you'll be willing to spend eventually. Thus, businesses for the first time have a tool to measure the potential of the "Bitcoin as a currency"-economy. If this economy is growing, then there will be more businesses trying to enter that market, which means more people earn their money in BTC. And so on - the money could start to really circulate, instead of being mainly bought and sold at exchanges.

[omone1]

No currency ever gets its true value without users or holders spending them. I have been living on bitcoin, I hardly go to my bookshop these days because of low patronage. So I have been relying on profit from bitcoin, majorly gotten through trading. I will be glad if I am able to spend my bitcoin in buying just anything.

[Artemis3]

I don't believe spending bitcoin for small purchases will ever happen. Bitcoin is settling into SoV narrative. It's an important driver for cryptocurrency adoption. Bitcoin will be used for settling SoV type of transactions. For example, I save money to buy real estate in Bitcoin. When I have enough and decide to buy a house, I'd convert my bitcoin into real estate. It encourages HODL behavior. Bitcoin exists because it has inflation nemesis, fiat currencies. If Bitcoin ever gobbled up all of the world money, we'd be in the same dark place as inflationary fiat system. In some sense, Bitcoin is as evil as fiat.

I think the monetary system will consist 2 contradictory forces: deflationary and inflationary.

Disclaimer: I'm working on a digital inflationary crypto.

Its the difference of knowing and not knowing Austrian economics. Once you read how deflationary economy works, you will abandon your project and join Bitcoin.

Sorry to crash your illusions, but the world is full of inflationary currencies, precisely because of the dominant Chicago school dogma, there are even people scared of deflation simply because they don't know better.

The less we want is yet another inflationary coin, constant or not. That is one of the main fails of Ethereum.

You don't know this but I'm a constant user of bitcoin for small purchases, they are not done directly in bitcoin at the shops because its impossible in my country, but i exchange the bare minimum into fiat before going out. I know perfectly well in an ideal world this last step of exchanging into fiat would disappear completely, and i cannot be more happy for that day to come.

Why is that? Because my only source of income is in Bitcoin, no bitcoin no food. Why no change large amount into fiat? Because my country's fiat is the worst of the world, keep it one day and tomorrow has half its purchasing power, you want to get rid of it asap, and hold as little as possible. To me its in the way, but there is still a State and their impositions in the way (not to mention that same State ruined everyone's lives when going hyperinflation, because they can make coins out of thin air whenever they want. This is something Bitcoin erases, something your project doesn't do.

This is why Bitcoin has value, and your project doesn't. Please don't bother bringing more inflationary altcoins, the few that already exist are bad enough.

Bitcoin has already chose a path that enables small purchases, its an off the chain solution called Lightning Network. For me this is more convenient than hitting localbitcoins, so yes, I'd love to use it at shops that way. Not very sure how a light LN wallet would work, but I'm waiting for Electrum to add LN which they are actually doing.

[timerland]

What I'm trying to understand and defend against a lot of the mass skeptics is this exact question - Would you use bitcoin as a currency if it was possible?

.."if it was possible"... then why not? Besides, I already using it at some of the services.

But for a cup of coffee, how much the cost of it we are talking here? Is using and paying with BTC does make sense here or just pay it instead with some few bucks on our pocket which is for me way faster and convenient.

Will treat it as an alternative payment since on the other hand, I have other payment sources e.g fiat salary, credit cards. As much as possible, I will consider paying with crypto only if I'm run out of options.

This is a good post and asks a lot of the important questions that we need to consider if BTC was to truly become mainstream.

One of the main issues, why this will likely not happen, is the concept and premise bitcoin's blockchain was built on. Bitcoin was meant to replace the overnight wire transfers and be an easy way to send money overseas and this was combined with the purpose to be something to rival the centralized system of banks. Bitcoin was never made to be used to buy a coffee on your morning commute - there are other projects/coins that are purposely made to do this. Pundi X is a good example of a micropayments system and its blockchain is developed around the idea of using their tokens to pay for small items.