Bitcoin & Lightning - Would you pay for coffee instantly if it was possible?

[Periodik]

I will spend it. I have no doubt about Bitcoin designed primarily as a currency. If fees are going to reduced to a reasonable amount and transaction confirmation time is also increased to almost instantaneous, I am very much positive that Bitcoin will rise more as a currency rather than as an asset. As a matter of fact, that is the main concern of a lot of people why they choose not to spend their BTC. A fee for a cup of coffee is worth another cup. That is unreasonable.

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[gentlemand]

How can we have mass adoption if we're not trying to use it for payments.

The masses want to save and preserve their buying power. That's the most likely job Bitcoin ends up with in its present form if it becomes big enough and relatively stable enough. Hundreds of millions have exposure to stock markets. You can't use stocks for payments either.

[Darker45]

I have been using Bitcoin already for payments. All of them online payments and purchases. Admittedly, there are currently limited uses, but we are definitely moving forward one step at a time. For now, only few business establishments are accepting Bitcoin payments. Few people are also using Bitcoin to buy stuff. Nevertheless, it is existing already. So how much more if the fees are already low and the transactions very fast? Certainly, that would bring Bitcoin spending to a whole new level.

[slaman29]

Simple for me. I use Bitcoin even without it being instant, but Bitpay lets me just process the payment even with 0 confirmation as long as the fee is enough. So the users don't care about instant or not, this is the merchant who has to answer the question, don't you think?

[coolcoinz]

I would since I have a lot of saved up coins and being able to spend freely would definitely move the price up by a LOT, which would be another incentive to spend. I had Bitcoins when they were worth less than 1/4 of their current price and I really could use some premium treatment. At the moment I'm spending just a little on Amazon but that's it. I'd prefer be able to go to a car dealership or eat at a restaurant and not worry about exchange rates and fees. When that happens I'll start spending for real, but until then it's HODL time

[makoto1337]

I remember buying a beer in Berlin that cost 5 euros, during the 2017 peak. The tx fee on that was over 30 euros. I did it to make a statement, though, as not many places accept Bitcoin for payments.

[salty]

In principle I would be ready to spend it and now if all accepted it.But since in my country, many do not even know what a cryptocurrency is, it is very difficult to implement.But there is also a serious problem in the slow speed of transactions. Not every store will want to wait for payment too long.Therefore, most likely bitcoin is not suitable for micropayments.

[klaaas]

I would not mind to spend the funds at all. Where i now can spend pennies online on a fast manner i would do the same at a store.

Not every store will want to wait for payment too long.Therefore, most likely bitcoin is not suitable for micropayments.

Wiring over the lightning network takes a few seconds and doesnt has the long confirmation times Bitcoin has.

[rdluffy]

Yes, I'll use for sure
It's very convenient to use the smartphone for example, with cryptos and pay with you balance of BTC

I have BTC as investment, but I can use as a currency to, it's easy to have both, just like fiat

[Dannaey]

It feels like a waste to make a payment with Bitcoin.
If the lightning network is activated, I want to pay with a less burdensome cryptocurrency.

Lightning Network is built to help instantly send/receive Bitcoins so by that, transaction fees on transferring are reduced. So I don't think it would be burdensome to use Bitcoin for payment.

[Wind_FURY]

Even if they say they will, I believe most of the HODLERS will never "waste" their Bitcoins to buy coffee, with, or without Lightning because of the opportunity costs. Bitcoin's strength as a store of value, is also its weakness for adoption.

They might do it once. But don't hope that they will regularly use Bitcoin instead of cash or credit cards.

[shadow12348]

Even if they say they will, I believe most of the HODLERS will never "waste" their Bitcoins to buy coffee, with, or without Lightning because of the opportunity costs. Bitcoin's strength as a store of value, is also its weakness for adoption.

They might do it once. But don't hope that they will regularly use Bitcoin instead of cash or credit cards.

I understand, how about the situation with people that had bitcoin before mid-2017. For example you have 300% in profits, would you be comfortable spending some portion of that on a purchase while simultaneously purchasing that same amount of BTC so that your net bitcoin holdings don't diminish?

If HODL-ing is the primary mentality of even half of bitcoin holders, what possible incentive does bitcoin even present for usage by the common man?

[vintages]

Using it as a payment method was the sole purpose of Bitcoin upon creation. But the along the line, many people deviated from that motion to holding till when the price is pumped to sell. I have been using my Bitcoin to pay for services online, which for me have been easier than credit cards. From paying for domains to paying for personal services, so for me it won't change. Truth is, even with lightening, many hodlers will not spend it on services and goods but rather hodl.

Though, i still doubt the possibility of having Bitcoin as a universal currency and still remaining 'decentralized'. For Bitcoin to become that sort of currency it will need more modifications from the authorities. Then, I doubt if many might still want to own it not use it since it might loss the quality of been decentralized.

[Lauren Smith]

I spend a fair bit of BTC. I tend to use it to buy items that'll improve my life. That way I won't be sad if the price ever reaches squillions of dollars as I got plenty of good use from whatever I bought.

Unless I had no alternative, and I do, I wouldn't spend it on consumables like food, coffee, fuel. That stuff eventually comes out of my arse, urethra or exhaust pipe never to be seen again, though it was certainly useful at the time.

The key to spending is earning in BTC. And those who bought for a lot less have earned more buying power in a sense too. If you've got it coming in then you'll be more inclined to spend it. If you've laid out your dollars in the hope of doing well, and are yet to, and underwent all that hassle to obtain it then you'll be far less willing to spend. You'll want to hoard.

A lot of attitudes and circumstances will need to change for it to see regular use as a currency. We're nowhere near it now. We may never be.

I agree with you and also do they same. I spend some of my earnings when btc is doing well so that I know no matter how bitcoin does I rode some of the high waves and bought some nice things. Without it I would not have the things I have. I would not be able to take my family out as much and all the rest.

I use it regularly though. As I do any other currency. In fact I make more crypto transactions then banking transactions. I only ever use the bank if the people I buy from don't use crypto and even then I still ask them.

[figmentofmyass]

I spend a fair bit of BTC. I tend to use it to buy items that'll improve my life. That way I won't be sad if the price ever reaches squillions of dollars as I got plenty of good use from whatever I bought.

nice thought, but it'll still hurt lol. i try not to think too much about all the stupid stuff i spent my bitcoins on back in 2014-15. if i'd only known i was spending my coins at the bottom! that's why i never spend coins deep into a downtrend anymore.

it's still a painful subject.

[shadow12348]

I spend a fair bit of BTC. I tend to use it to buy items that'll improve my life. That way I won't be sad if the price ever reaches squillions of dollars as I got plenty of good use from whatever I bought.

nice thought, but it'll still hurt lol. i try not to think too much about all the stupid stuff i spent my bitcoins on back in 2014-15. if i'd only known i was spending my coins at the bottom! that's why i never spend coins deep into a downtrend anymore.

it's still a painful subject.

This appears to be what a lot of bitcoin holders think. In this kind of situation, would you be comfortable spending it if the amount of BTC you spent is replenished by an immediate BTC purchase, such that your net holdings remains the same?

How can one incentivize a new, average person to begin using BTC if the only reason that people buy it is with the hope that the fiat value will go up?

[Ucy]

Why not? I pay for few things once in a while with bitcoin.
I normally just let my Bitcoin increase in price when I have nothing to spend it on.  Nothing stops me when I need to spend my coins,not even the possibility of price going up soon.

Bitcoins constantly move in and out of millions of wallets, If people don't really spend Bitcoin because of the expectation that price will increase in the future, then things would be a bit stagnant with the wallets.

Ask the owners of online marketplaces that accept Bitcoin whether people buy with bitcoin or not, you will be surprised by the answer I guess.

[squatter]

In this kind of situation, would you be comfortable spending it if the amount of BTC you spent is replenished by an immediate BTC purchase, such that your net holdings remains the same?

How can one incentivize a new, average person to begin using BTC if the only reason that people buy it is with the hope that the fiat value will go up?

It's not easy considering Gresham's law. As long as weaker currencies like fiat money ("bad money") are widely accepted, people will opt to hoard away "good money" like bitcoins.

If/when Bitcoin achieves a sustainable economy where there is no need for fiat inflows and outflows -- meaning supply chains and payrolls are covered in bitcoins -- this can change. If people are getting paid in bitcoins, they will feel more comfortable spending them. As it stands, spending bitcoins and rebuying them later could entail lost bitcoins because of conversion/exchange fees and rising price. For most people, it makes more sense just to hoard their coins and spend fiat money on consumer goods instead.

[shadow12348]

In this kind of situation, would you be comfortable spending it if the amount of BTC you spent is replenished by an immediate BTC purchase, such that your net holdings remains the same?

How can one incentivize a new, average person to begin using BTC if the only reason that people buy it is with the hope that the fiat value will go up?

It's not easy considering Gresham's law. As long as weaker currencies like fiat money ("bad money") are widely accepted, people will opt to hoard away "good money" like bitcoins.

If/when Bitcoin achieves a sustainable economy where there is no need for fiat inflows and outflows -- meaning supply chains and payrolls are covered in bitcoins -- this can change. If people are getting paid in bitcoins, they will feel more comfortable spending them. As it stands, spending bitcoins and rebuying them later could entail lost bitcoins because of conversion/exchange fees and rising price. For most people, it makes more sense just to hoard their coins and spend fiat money on consumer goods instead.

Absolutely, but this is kind of a chicken and egg problem. To drive out volatility/"bad money", adoption must be rampant. For adoption, volatility needs to be driven out.

There's got to be some kind of gradual, seamless transition from good and bad money co-existing to one being the dominant driver.

[BitHodler]

LN can be a crucial element here: Lightning is a tool which is able to facilitate some purchases, and once it becomes established there could be a "domino effect", encouraging spending in a very similar way to what prepaid cards achieve. The coins you have locked one time on LN, are coins you'll be willing to spend eventually. Thus, businesses for the first time have a tool to measure the potential of the "Bitcoin as a currency"-economy. If this economy is growing, then there will be more businesses trying to enter that market, which means more people earn their money in BTC. And so on - the money could start to really circulate, instead of being mainly bought and sold at exchanges.

Interesting perspective. I do however wonder how long this will be a valid metric with how LN will eventually take over a lot use cases of the main-chain where it's still speculation that is the driving force behind this market.

Another thing is that you can't exactly know what people are doing on LN because it's not as transparent as the main-chain is, which I'm sure a lot of people (including myself) here would consider an extremely bullish development.

Overall, the volatile nature and the insane up side of Bitcoin are more of an obstacle in my opinion. Not many dare to accept even a portion of their wage in Bitcoin if you discard the few geeks working for crypto companies.