[2019-07-26] The IRS is warning thousands of cryptocurrency holders to pay taxes

[figmentofmyass]

Well.. if you are claiming for long-term holding, then you need to show the proof of purchase from that time.

that's the surefire way to beat an audit, but it may not be necessary. records can be lost due to reasons beyond your control. the IRS asks that you make reasonable and good faith efforts to comply.



if you bought bitcoins with cash, p2p etc years ago it would be reasonable not to have any verifiable records. there are also many defunct exchanges---if you used one of them, it's reasonable not to have complete records.

[1715044798]

1715044798

[DaveF]

Do you know if this is a follow up to the coinbase subpoena that requested information regarding customers  who have transactions over $20,000 or more?

Yes. As far as I know, the IRS hasn't said where they are getting their info from, and I'd be surprised if they ever did since people would then know to avoid those methods. However, there have been loads of users on this forum and on reddit who have confirmed that Coinbase shared their details and they also received the tax letters.

The IRS are likely receiving similar information from a number of exchanges, and will continue to push harder and harder until all exchanges hand over all customer details. If you have ever completed KYC on any exchange, at some point in the future the IRS will likely find out your trading history.

It's going to be interesting to see how far back they go and how much they go looking for.
The IRS has stated that below a certain amounts unless there is another reason to go after you they don't even try to collect. No letter, no nothing it's just kind of sitting there in their computers.

-Dave

[squatter]

Yes. As far as I know, the IRS hasn't said where they are getting their info from, and I'd be surprised if they ever did since people would then know to avoid those methods. However, there have been loads of users on this forum and on reddit who have confirmed that Coinbase shared their details and they also received the tax letters.

The IRS are likely receiving similar information from a number of exchanges, and will continue to push harder and harder until all exchanges hand over all customer details. If you have ever completed KYC on any exchange, at some point in the future the IRS will likely find out your trading history.

It's going to be interesting to see how far back they go and how much they go looking for.

When the IRS originally issued the summons for Coinbase user data, they were looking for everyone "active between 2013 and 2015." To me, that gives a pretty clear indication that 2013 is the limit of what they're planning to investigate.

The IRS has stated that below a certain amounts unless there is another reason to go after you they don't even try to collect. No letter, no nothing it's just kind of sitting there in their computers.

Link? I feel like the IRS wouldn't say that because their whole MO is to scare people into voluntary compliance.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Link? I feel like the IRS wouldn't say that because their whole MO is to scare people into voluntary compliance.

I agree that the IRS are unlikely to say come out and directly say that (also interested in a link if you have one), but it is likely true.

They simply don't have the resources to investigate everyone who has ever bought bitcoin or another cryptocurrency, just like they don't have the resources to investigate every tradesman who is taking cash for various jobs and not declaring or paying tax on it. They will go after those who have bought or traded a sizeable amount (in this case, more than $20,000 through Coinbase), but spending time, money and resources on reclaiming a few hundred dollars in tax from smaller users would be a net negative for them. I have no doubt they will slap some hefty tax bills and fines on large volume users who haven't paid, and they may even go after a handful of smaller users to try to scare others in to complying. I have no doubt there will be another several rounds of threatening letters though. They want people to come clean on their own, because they can't audit everyone.

And as pointed out above, if you have been smart enough to avoid doing KYC at an exchange, it is extremely difficult for them to actually prove how much bitcoin you own or how long you have been holding it.

[error08]

My question to you pretty much is; taking the above in consideration, what forms of taxes do you pay and not pay?

I simply avoid everything I can, and evade when it's smart to do so.

I like this kind of discussion, taxation is a legitimate robbery which difficult to avoid, and if we don't pay it, be prepared with the consequence.
I know someone who hasn't paid the vehicle tax for 2 years but almost reaches the limit of not paying it as if the officers accidentally find him, it will be the end of the freedom.
However, there are tons of people who don't pay taxes depending on where you live obviously, a different case if we are receiving warning letters from the IRS, nothing we can do to avoid it. Bitcoin holders will be safe only if they have never registered to an Exchanger and comply with the KYC. Even Localbitcoins recently changed its KYC/AML guidelines which required verification as well.

[Sithara007]

I like this kind of discussion, taxation is a legitimate robbery which difficult to avoid, and if we don't pay it, be prepared with the consequence.
I know someone who hasn't paid the vehicle tax for 2 years but almost reaches the limit of not paying it as if the officers accidentally find him, it will be the end of the freedom.
However, there are tons of people who don't pay taxes depending on where you live obviously, a different case if we are receiving warning letters from the IRS, nothing we can do to avoid it. Bitcoin holders will be safe only if they have never registered to an Exchanger and comply with the KYC. Even Localbitcoins recently changed its KYC/AML guidelines which required verification as well.

Funny that you mentioned about the vehicle tax. My country previously had very lax rules regarding traffic violations and vehicle taxation. But last month, they increased the penalties by almost 10x and despite widespread protests from the people the government is refusing to back down. I can't blame the government as well. Recently there was a sharp rise in the number of accidents and the deaths and injuries resulting from them. Also, here it is not unusual to find people who drive without having the driving license.

But taxation is a different topic, which is separate from traffic violations. Here they have combined both. The vehicle tax is very high, at least when compared to the neighboring nations. And now everyone is forced to pay this high tax after the new amendment. Tax evasion is not very rare in my country. But it depends on your luck. You commit one mistake, and your free run is over. The penalties can be 300% or more of the defaulted amount, and it can leave you high and dry.

[BitHodler]

Tax evasion is not very rare in my country.

Tax evasion is more common than people think, and those who usually blame others for evading taxes, do the exact same thing without realizing, or they are just a bunch of hypocrites and only point at the wrongdoing of others.

The very fact that a large group of people talking about tax evasion and consider it a crime is already quite shocking, because all it technically is, is self protection.... protection against criminals who want to steal your money by force.

[DaveF]

I'm just going to put this out there:

https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-sorry-but-its-just-easier-and-cheaper-to-audit-the-poor

So yeah, they do target the easier people. You can read into that what you will. But, have a bit more money and a more complicated return and you are more likely to get away with stuff.

-Dave

[figmentofmyass]

I'm just going to put this out there:

https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-sorry-but-its-just-easier-and-cheaper-to-audit-the-poor

So yeah, they do target the easier people. You can read into that what you will. But, have a bit more money and a more complicated return and you are more likely to get away with stuff.

-Dave

it looks like they specifically target EITC recipients for audits because they are often slam dunk cases. i guess that's a pretty big incentive not to claim the credit!

apparently these audits take IRS agents 5 hours per return. can you imagine how much longer it would take to audit a crypto trader? talk about a more complicated return......

[bryant.coleman]

Tax evasion is not very rare in my country.

Tax evasion is more common than people think, and those who usually blame others for evading taxes, do the exact same thing without realizing, or they are just a bunch of hypocrites and only point at the wrongdoing of others.

The very fact that a large group of people talking about tax evasion and consider it a crime is already quite shocking, because all it technically is, is self protection.... protection against criminals who want to steal your money by force.

Well.. it depends on your ability to hide your evasion. Oligarchs and billionaires have talented CAs out there to help them, and they normally pay much lower taxes rates when compared to the middle class (making use of all the loopholes and tax breaks). What they are doing is entirely legal, even if it is not very ethical. Also, most of the income for the super-rich comes in the form of capital gains, dividend and stock options and there are enough loopholes available for them to make use of.

On the other hand, the middle class gets most of their income in the form of salary. Now the catch is that there are not many loopholes available with the salary income, to qualify for a lower tax rate. So these guys are forced to pay a higher tax rate when compared to the super-rich. This is not fair, but the system works like that. Because if a particular country increases the tax rate for the super-rich, then they'll just migrate to another country, where the tax rate is low. With the middle class, there is no such risk, as they can't afford to shift.

[Carlton Banks]

Oligarchs and billionaires have talented CAs out there to help them, and they normally pay much lower taxes rates when compared to the middle class (making use of all the loopholes and tax breaks). What they are doing is entirely legal, even if it is not very ethical.

ethics and morality are subjective

I would entirely approve of the ethical stance of a US or EU citizen refusing to pay taxes, on the basis that they would be repaying the money borrowed to conduct:

• WWII
• Korean War
• Vietnam War
• Cambodian War
• Afghan War I
• Iraq War I
• Yugoslav War
• Afghan War II
• Iraq War II
• 2011 Libyan Annihilation (can't really call that a war)
• Syrian War
• Yemen War

and several I probably forgot

So many people weren't even alive to vote against any of this, and yet they must pay the massive bill for these turf-war genocides. If you think it's ethical to just pay though, @bryant coleman, I would suggest it is you that is the unethical one.

[1Referee]

With the middle class, there is no such risk, as they can't afford to shift.

Perhaps that's what they taught themselves throughout the years. If you convince yourself that you're stuck in a situation with no possible way out, you will actually believe and act like that.

I'm not saying it's easy for the middle class to shift, but with will, dedication and education, a lot can be accomplished. Even if there is no possible way out of the tax rates the middle class is subject to, there are always other fields where you can get an advantage tax wise. People need to get over the believe that they are screwing over their country by avoiding taxation legally or "illegally".

Even such a thing as not declaring your cold wallet or physical Gold holdings helps. As long as you have obtained and stored them without any logs pointing in your direction, you're pretty safe.

[Sithara007]

With the middle class, there is no such risk, as they can't afford to shift.

Perhaps that's what they taught themselves throughout the years. If you convince yourself that you're stuck in a situation with no possible way out, you will actually believe and act like that.

I'm not saying it's easy for the middle class to shift, but with will, dedication and education, a lot can be accomplished. Even if there is no possible way out of the tax rates the middle class is subject to, there are always other fields where you can get an advantage tax wise. People need to get over the believe that they are screwing over their country by avoiding taxation legally or "illegally".

Even such a thing as not declaring your cold wallet or physical Gold holdings helps. As long as you have obtained and stored them without any logs pointing in your direction, you're pretty safe.

Most of the people pay their taxes not because they think that it is the "right" thing to do. Also nobody thinks that it is their "duty" to pay the taxes on time. A lot of us pay the taxes because we know that the others are doing the same, and if we refuse to pay the taxes then the authorities will seize all of our assets and throw us in the prison to rot.

It is always risky to go against the status quo. If 20% or 30% of the population refuse to pay their taxes, or try to evade, then it gives us confidence. We know that they will not be able to go after this many people. But as long as the tax evaders constitute a minuscule proportion of the population, it gives the authorities the power to destroy them and to make an example out of them. Well... it is always the question of who will bell the cat first.

[Carlton Banks]

Most of the people pay their taxes not because they think that it is the "right" thing to do. Also nobody thinks that it is their "duty" to pay the taxes on time. A lot of us pay the taxes because we know that the others are doing the same, and if we refuse to pay the taxes then the authorities will seize all of our assets and throw us in the prison to rot.

easy problem to solve

digital individual's checklist:

• own digital assets that are protected by cryptography
• own internet assets (VPS) anonymously
• rent physical assets as much as possible
• have backup plans for theft of physical assets (laptops, PGP keys etc)

It is always risky to go against the status quo. If 20% or 30% of the population refuse to pay their taxes, or try to evade, then it gives us confidence. We know that they will not be able to go after this many people. But as long as the tax evaders constitute a minuscule proportion of the population, it gives the authorities the power to destroy them and to make an example out of them. Well... it is always the question of who will bell the cat first.

that would be people like me

feel free to do the same, we're taking alot of the risk atm in order that you can do so too

[1Referee]

Most of the people pay their taxes not because they think that it is the "right" thing to do. Also nobody thinks that it is their "duty" to pay the taxes on time.

I wish you was right, but unfortunately, that's not the case. Most of the people around me feel it as their duty to pay tax, all because they think that otherwise the country will run out of finances. In other words, they are purposely serving as a cash cow and they're proud of it too, because it's their tax money that keeps the country up and running they think.

A lot of us pay the taxes because we know that the others are doing the same, and if we refuse to pay the taxes then the authorities will seize all of our assets and throw us in the prison to rot. 

Common joes actually consider that to be a rightful punishment for tax evaders. They have been far gone already and can't be helped anymore.

I like the general thinking of Bitcoiners, because they don't only have a better understanding of economics, but they know they have the tools needed to actually make it work to their advantage.

[BitHodler]

If you think it's ethical to just pay though, @bryant coleman, I would suggest it is you that is the unethical one.

From what I understand, he's not voluntarily paying his taxes, but does so out of force and the fear of imprisonment. If he's comfortable doing that, then that's up to him. I don't see much wrong with people doing so.

I'm kinda in a similar boat. It's not as easy as you make it look to just avoid taxation and clean after your paper/digital trails. Another thing is that it requires you to pretty much dig yourself into the ground and give up on a lot of things.

It's fantastic and all that you have made it your top priority to not pay any or as little taxes as possible, but that doesn't justify your behavior towards those who do pay taxes and make them feel like they are a problem.

[Carlton Banks]

From what I understand, he's not voluntarily paying his taxes, but does so out of force and the fear of imprisonment.

you could always start by reading his post, what people say gives a general impression of what their stance is

he said I (and tax evaders like me) are the problem, and that we should all be good boy and girls

If he's comfortable doing that, then that's up to him. I don't see much wrong with people doing so.

how many genocides paid for with your tax dollars would you like me to post?

[Sithara007]

Most of the people pay their taxes not because they think that it is the "right" thing to do. Also nobody thinks that it is their "duty" to pay the taxes on time.

I wish you was right, but unfortunately, that's not the case. Most of the people around me feel it as their duty to pay tax, all because they think that otherwise the country will run out of finances. In other words, they are purposely serving as a cash cow and they're proud of it too, because it's their tax money that keeps the country up and running they think.

Well.. it is tough. I am a resident of India and here 99% of the citizens will tell you that if someone refuses to pay his taxes, then he deserves to be imprisoned. They'll even label such individuals as unpatriotic and anti-national. Recently we had a few scandals related to tax evasion, and the public opinion was heavily favoring the government authorities.

And if you analyze the government expenses, then you will be surprised. Most of the tax revenue collected from tax payers like us is used to give freebies to the lazy people and to pay salaries to the government employees (who are one of the most unproductive group of people in India). It is a bit complicated. People always complain that the tax rates are high. But they are very much against any sort of tax evasion.

[gentlemand]

Things just a whole lot sillier/fruitier - https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/frequently-asked-questions-on-virtual-currency-transactions

https://coincenter.org/entry/irs-cryptocurrency-guidance-answers-some-questions-while-raising-messy-new-ones

https://www.coindesk.com/the-irs-just-issued-its-first-cryptocurrency-tax-guidance-in-5-years

I can't believe they let something this woolly and illogical out in the wild. It reads like something a drunk Indian bureaucrat would come up with that no one else could be bothered to check before signing it off.

https://twitter.com/brucefenton/status/1181981988221329413

[squatter]

Things just a whole lot sillier/fruitier - https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/frequently-asked-questions-on-virtual-currency-transactions

https://coincenter.org/entry/irs-cryptocurrency-guidance-answers-some-questions-while-raising-messy-new-ones

I was really freaked out when I first read the guidelines, but I'm glad Coincenter pointed this out:

On the other hand, because the value of a coin is typically zero at the moment of a hard fork (given there are no markets yet), then the reportable income would be zero, in which case taxpayers may be incentivized to always hold their own coins rather than end up with new coins from an exchange only after markets have developed and the income event could actually be substantial.

Since hard forks are valued at zero at the time of receipt, this actually seems like a positive development. It means if you ignore the hard forks, you never received any taxable income. And if you sell the fork coins, the taxes are really straightforward.