Bitcoin Forum
January 22, 2020, 05:50:58 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.19.0.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Help me to understand bitcoin mixing  (Read 441 times)
Royse777
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 910
Merit: 1113


Translation (End <> Russ): https://bit.ly/2NFg4H0


View Profile
July 31, 2019, 09:43:06 AM
 #21

That's the thing about taint. You can't eliminate it, you can only exchange it for someone else's. This is why there is a market for "virgin" bitcoins.
Okay this "virgin bitcoins" thing is new for me. I like the name :-P

I'm operating under the assumption that mixing algorithms not broken today might be broken in the future. This could be used retroactively to de-anonymize transactions.
Since you can not hide from an open ledger, today or tomorrow the algorithms will be broken which leads me this question that will we see someday that mixers are gone/useless?

Word of caution:
Chatting on the Italian Telegram channel with some representative from a well known Bitcoin Exchange, he told us they usually track back funds coming into their exchange a "few steps back" and they flag them if such funds appear to come from mixing/coinjoin addresses.

They have quite sophisticated algorithm to do so, and didn't disclose what "a few step backs" means (in term of hops/time between transactions or a mix of the two). Also didn't disclose exactely how they recognise those kind of transactions, even if some kind of approach based on number of input(outputs can be an easy guess).

For the moment those flags bear no action (most of times), but regulators want every exchange to be technologically ready to act in case any rule would be enacted.

Not sure if this is a good or bad news for users but it surely is a good step from the exchanges. They are protecting their business.

.
.
.
▄███████████████████▄
█████████████████████
████████████▀▀░░░░███
███████████▌░░░░░░███
███████████░░░░██████
███████████░░░░██████
████████░░░░░░░░░░▐██
████████░░░░░░░░░░███

███████████░░░░██████

███████████░░░░██████

███████████░░░░██████

███████████░░░░██████

▀██████████░░░░█████▀
▄███████████████████▄
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
████▀██████▀░░░▀▀▄███
████░░▀▀███░░░░░░▄███
████▀░░░░░░░░░░░▐████
████▄░░░░░░░░░░░█████
█████▀░░░░░░░░░▄█████

████▀█▄░░░░░░░▄██████

█████▄░░░░░▄▄████████

█████████████████████

█████████████████████

▀███████████████████▀
▄███████████████████▄
█████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█████
███░░░▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄░░░███
██░░▄█████████▀▀▄░░██
██░░███▀▀░░░▀▀▄▄█░░██
██░░██▀░▄███▄░▀██░░██
██░░██░░█████░░██░░██
██░░██▄░▀███▀░▄██░░██

██░░███▄▄░░░▄▄███░░██

██░░▀███████████▀░░██

███░░░▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀░░░███

█████▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█████

▀███████████████████▀
▄███████████████████▄
█████████████████████
█████████████████████
██████████████▀▀▀████
██████████▀▀░░░░▐████
██████▀▀░░░▄▀░░░█████
████░░░░▄▄▀░░░░▐█████
██████▄▐█░░░░░░██████

███████▌▌░░░░░▐██████

████████▄██▄▄░███████

█████████████████████

█████████████████████

▀███████████████████▀
.
1579715458
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1579715458

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1579715458
Reply with quote  #2

1579715458
Report to moderator
1579715458
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1579715458

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1579715458
Reply with quote  #2

1579715458
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1579715458
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1579715458

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1579715458
Reply with quote  #2

1579715458
Report to moderator
1579715458
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1579715458

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1579715458
Reply with quote  #2

1579715458
Report to moderator
ETFbitcoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 2164

Use SegWit and enjoy lower fees.


View Profile WWW
July 31, 2019, 05:16:40 PM
Merited by dbshck (4), squatter (1)
 #22

Chainalysis admitted this? Which mixers?

I'm operating under the assumption that mixing algorithms not broken today might be broken in the future. This could be used retroactively to de-anonymize transactions.

Of course not, but few people who claim work at Chainalysis mentioned mixer/CoinJoin give them hard time. Check :
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/c4so58/i_am_a_current_or_former_employee_of_chainalysis/
https://www.reddit.com/r/WasabiWallet/comments/c4vhlk/lets_talk_about_chainalysis/
https://news.bitcoin.com/chainalysis-whistleblower-shares-company-secrets-in-explosive-ama/

TLDR : looks like CoinJoin method which used by Wasabi is the most difficult to track, at least when the AMA happen & assuming the user wasn't lying.

Thirdspace
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1232
Merit: 719


Mixing reinvented for your privacy | chipmixer.com


View Profile
July 31, 2019, 07:18:44 PM
 #23

Okay this "virgin bitcoins" thing is new for me. I like the name :-P
Quote
According to Dave Jevans, the CEO of CipherTrace, virgin Bitcoins are essentially BTC tokens that do not have a transaction (TX) record associated with them.
the way he described it sounds like reward coins in coinbase transactions
as we know new generated coins don't have input in its transactions
but the latter definition confuses me, how can we say it virgin if it was "sanitized" Undecided

Quote
However, what is interesting is the fact that criminal Bitcoin can be sanitized by local governments by them selling such commodities after making a clear note of their past transactional history. The best example of this is when the United States Marshals Service held a sealed bid auction back in 2018 for a total of 3,813 Bitcoins (estimated to be worth $51.5 million at the time).

fillippone
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Activity: 588
Merit: 2256


Legendary Member Wannabe


View Profile
July 31, 2019, 07:24:17 PM
 #24


TLDR : looks like CoinJoin method which used by Wasabi is the most difficult to track, at least when the AMA happen & assuming the user wasn't lying.

This is plausible, as Wasabi is a decentralised solution, where you actually do not connect to any centralised server. Coinjoin via Samourai wallet instead imply connecting to their (Samurai) own servers, with inherent loss of privacy and point of failure for bad actors (g-men in this case) to spoil.



BitMaximum
Copper Member
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 484
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 26, 2019, 06:22:49 AM
 #25

Okay this "virgin bitcoins" thing is new for me. I like the name :-P
Quote
According to Dave Jevans, the CEO of CipherTrace, virgin Bitcoins are essentially BTC tokens that do not have a transaction (TX) record associated with them.
the way he described it sounds like reward coins in coinbase transactions
as we know new generated coins don't have input in its transactions
but the latter definition confuses me, how can we say it virgin if it was "sanitized" Undecided

Quote
However, what is interesting is the fact that criminal Bitcoin can be sanitized by local governments by them selling such commodities after making a clear note of their past transactional history. The best example of this is when the United States Marshals Service held a sealed bid auction back in 2018 for a total of 3,813 Bitcoins (estimated to be worth $51.5 million at the time).

Nobody can be sure that their bitcoins have a clean history of transactions. Virgin Bitcoins have zero history of transactions. That is why the demand in them is big because there is zero risks that the Virgin Bitcoins have a bad history. Financial Action Task Force against money laundering (FATF) tighten the control, obliging crypto exchanges to comply with AML procedures. More tighten is the control more demand in Virgin Bitcoins.

Dabs
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2576
Merit: 1352


The Concierge of Crypto


View Profile
September 27, 2019, 04:02:47 PM
 #26

Mixing the way the term is used, seems to me to be a misnomer, as the funds or coins aren't actually mixed but they are instead swapped or exchanged with a different set of coins coming from different inputs or transactions.

CoinJoin seems to be one of those things that fit the word itself, mixing, as it combines or joins all the inputs in one transaction, in a way that does not rely trust on anything but the system or protocol.

Centralized mixers can also do this, without disconnecting, but combining all the coins into one. This happens when coins you deposit on a site or exchange has some cold storage address, then withdrawals come from that address. Sometimes the address itself consolidates inputs into a giant coin. That way, any taint from any coin is "mixed" with everyone else, which might not a good thing if any other entity refuses to accept your coins coming from such a source.

On chain games like the old satoshi dice, while not really mixing, could give amateur chainalysers a headache too, but nothing that computers can eventually figure out. Just play a game with 100% chance to win, you only lose the house edge, which you can think of as the mixing fee.

Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!