[List] Atomic swap tools and exchanges / DEX for Bitcoin

[honglu69]

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Thank you for your explanation. I have now read a bit about how Thorchain works. If I'm not wrong it's not 100% trustless but "trust-minimizing based on incentives", i.e. the "atomicity" of the swap is not ensured by an HTLC or similar contract but by incentives to the liquidity providers to play by the rules.

"100% trustless " feature is interesting topic to discuss among all different type of dex swap.  

Atomic Swap type of swap is for sure different from Thorchain (RUNE) type of swap.  Thorchain DEX is a lot faster. It does rely on economic interest of liquidity node providers to ensure security.  Thorchain has close to 100 node,  weekly rotated (not randomly, but highest bidder in, lowest out).  These nodes owners have economic interest not to steal funds because it provide bonding funds larger than they hold on mutli-sig wallet keys. This is like ETH style of staking miners who do not have interest to attack network for 51% attack.  Correct: more like ETH POS stakers style of security where the staking bonds get slashed on wrong doing.  Same slashing on thorchain nodes on its bonds on wrong doing too. 

Thorchain seems to be doing fine. but certainly on decentralization or "100% trustless" is not same as atomic swap type of DEX.  In my opinion, 90+ nodes that have economic bonding interest not to steal funds, that should be qualified as "trustless" in DEX swap status.  The node counts could be more, but it is not that shabby as of today.

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[Bitcoiner2023]

You can participate! If you know an atomic swap tool not included in the list, you're welcome to propose it. Only two rules: The tool or exchange must support Bitcoin and be trustless (no centralized provider, exchange participants must use their own private keys, and no centralized "exchange coin" like Binance Coin).

I think Chainflip should also be on your list.

[BubbleBTC]

There is a new atomicswap for BTC-XMR swap who is in beta test on Samourai wallet:
https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/blob/master/docs/BUY_XMR.md

Does anyone know when it will be live Mainnet?

[d5000]

I think Chainflip should also be on your list.

Indeed, if Thorchain is on the list then Chainflip should be there too, as they seem to use similar concepts (they are basically AMMs).

I've created a separate category for this kind of tools, because they're not completely trustless but incentive-based (see my discussion with honglu69 above), but I think they still belong here as there is no single point of failure. (The question however is if then also services like Bisq should be included - I would not like to "dilute" this thread's focus too much.)

https://code.samourai.io/wallet/comit-swaps-java/-/blob/master/docs/BUY_XMR.md

Thanks, added it as a candidate. When it leaves beta it will be moved to the main list.

As I understood this tweet, it is already usable on mainnet, only the interface is still not very user-friendly.

PS: Added UnstoppableSwap too (Bitcoin <-> Monero swap platform/software).

[BubbleBTC]

Unstoppableswap are way overpriced 5-6% fees and now capacity 0.12 BTC per atomic swap maximum.
Besides that they are only 3 providers of atomic swap inside, for Samourai i have great hopes because everyone will be able to broadcast an offer it will have so much offer that the % fee will get reduced by the internal competition of atomic swaps.

There is an other nice project that i am waiting to see released is: https://serai.exchange/
It will be similar as thorchain swaps but for XMR paired with BTC LTC ETH DAI

[BitcoinNeedHelp]

Indeed, if Thorchain is on the list then Chainflip should be there too, as they seem to use similar concepts (they are basically AMMs).

I've created a separate category for this kind of tools, because they're not completely trustless but incentive-based (see my discussion with honglu69 above), but I think they still belong here as there is no single point of failure.

Why they are not completely trustless ?
They are DEX and use SmartContracts ( Open Source )

[d5000]

Why they are not completely trustless ?
They are DEX and use SmartContracts ( Open Source )

See honglu69's post above.

In other words:
"Traditional" atomic swaps make it completely impossible to steal funds, at least if you aren't able to 51% attack one of both blockchains. The reason ist that if the secret of the HTLC/PTLC is revealed, only then both parties can move the coins they have traded. If not, both can't. There's thus a "direct connection" between both transactions.

In Thorchain and other similar concepts there isn't such a direct connection. There are different classes of special nodes which are in charge of the exchange trades. These nodes get money if they carry out the trades orderly and if not, they are punished. This (the incentives) is what is ensured by the smart contracts, on ThorChain, not the cross-chain exchange itself.

I think the general safety of ThorChain can be compared with that of an algorithmic stablecoin (e.g. Dai). This means, that while the nodes carrying out the swaps in almost all cases will do well if they play fair, it isn't guaranteed that there's no strategy for them to profit stealing funds.

Basically, atomic swaps ensure the exchange with the consensus mechanisms of the participating blockchains. Thorchain ensures the exchange with its own consensus mechanism, which may be weaker than Bitcoin's and other big coins' consensus.

[entarex]

What is currently the safest way to swap BTC into USDT (erc20 or trc) with a minimum commission?

[dkbit98]

What is currently the safest way to swap BTC into USDT (erc20 or trc) with a minimum commission?

Safest option with minimal fees is to Swap L-BTC into L-USDT using Aqua wallet, that is on Liquid network.

I don't think atomic swaps are usable now because of high fees on ethereum, and shitcoin tron doesn't even support atomic swaps.
eXch exchange has BTC to USDT option available, but this is not decentralized or atomic swap.
Komodo wallet (ex atomic dex) is another option, but I am not sure if there is enough liquidity there.

[entarex]

what can you say about https://chainflip.io/ ?
the service positions itself as DEX
with very good courses similar to CEX
There is very little information about this service on this forum.