Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

[Pipdips]

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

[1715196010]

1715196010

[jackg]

I think that's quite doubtful.
Satoshi was never in power in a government, he probably didnt care what people did with the currency and just offered something they built to the community.

Bitcoin fees are a bit like a tax (as much as inflation is a hidden tax in currency) but that's all e really have afaik.

If you think bitcoin will go higher, it's worth paying taxes now rather than paying huge fines in the future for not doing so...

[o_e_l_e_o]

You can have a look through all of Satoshi's writings here: https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/
And you can also have a look through all of his forum posts here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3

As far as I can tell, he never directly mentioned taxation. Tax is mentioned briefly in a couple of the early email chains between Satoshi and people like Hal Finney and Ray Dillinger. I'll paste the relevant sections here:

I know the same (lack of intrinsic value) can be said of fiat currencies, but an artificial demand for fiat currencies is created by (among other things) taxation and legal-tender laws. Also, even a fiat currency can be an inflation hedge against another fiat currency's higher rate of inflation. But in the case of bitcoins the inflation rate of 35% is almost guaranteed by the technology, there are no supporting mechanisms for taxation, and no legal-tender laws. People will not hold assets in this highly-inflationary currency if they can help it.

In the modern world, no major government wants to allow untracable international financial transactions above some fairly modest size thresholds. (The usual catch-phrases are things like "laundering drug money", "tax evasion", and/or "financing terrorist groups".) To this end, electronic financial transactions are currently monitored by various governments & their agencies, and any but the smallest of transactions now come with various ID requirements for the humans on each end.

[dothebeats]

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

[Muffinmanlet]

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

This pretty much sums up what I think as well.

[BitHodler]

No. I think taxation is quite subjective and differs from case to case as to what is justified as taxation and what isn't. I don't even think I would care if he considered taxation a point of importance.

Being given the opportunity to be your own bank and therefore no longer need a central party to rely on, there effectively is no way to tax you, while before, the IRS could have made it so that your bank accounts would be frozen.

The only way to have your Bitcoins frozen is to have them stored in an exchange or online wallet service, but then a point can be made that it's not you who owns the coins, but the exchange or online wallet service.

[2double0]

Satoshi seemed to have invented Bitcoins for the good of people who want to live freely, protect and maintain their privacy and save themselves from hefty taxes levied by Governments on their fiat by using cryptocurrencies (at that time - Btc). I don't see a need why would Satoshi ever think of something he never wanted anyone to pay for their transactions, he wanted us to keep our finances private and save a lot on transaction fees too.

[arrmia11]

I think that's quite doubtful.
Satoshi was never in power in a government, he probably didnt care what people did with the currency and just offered something they built to the community.

Bitcoin fees are a bit like a tax (as much as inflation is a hidden tax in currency) but that's all e really have afaik.

If you think bitcoin will go higher, it's worth paying taxes now rather than paying huge fines in the future for not doing so...

He just wanted people to free from fiat slavery, so no taxation ever mentioned.

[Thirdspace]

Satoshi created bitcoin to be used as peer-to-peer currency, not an investment product
he wants to provide an alternative way of making transactions between people with privacy and security
that's why he used pseudonym and I believe he doesn't care about government and taxation
bitcoin is all about pseudonymous transactions, decentralized, no boundaries, free from government interference

[timerland]

I doubt satoshi thought his idea would ever get so big, ready to rival governments currencies and likely change the course of history forever, especially with blockchain technology.

I don't think he would consider and care about the government - he wanted and created a peer to peer currency that would be able to escape the government rule and be for everyone to use.

He was 99% anti taxation, so I don't think we can look at BTC transaction fees as his way of taxation, it isn't as much as regular taxes are and goes against his mindset.

[Pipdips]

As far as I can tell, he never directly mentioned taxation. Tax is mentioned briefly in a couple of the early email chains between Satoshi and people like Hal Finney and Ray Dillinger. I'll paste the relevant sections here:

I know the same (lack of intrinsic value) can be said of fiat currencies, but an artificial demand for fiat currencies is created by (among other things) taxation and legal-tender laws. Also, even a fiat currency can be an inflation hedge against another fiat currency's higher rate of inflation. But in the case of bitcoins the inflation rate of 35% is almost guaranteed by the technology, there are no supporting mechanisms for taxation, and no legal-tender laws. People will not hold assets in this highly-inflationary currency if they can help it.

In the modern world, no major government wants to allow untracable international financial transactions above some fairly modest size thresholds. (The usual catch-phrases are things like "laundering drug money", "tax evasion", and/or "financing terrorist groups".) To this end, electronic financial transactions are currently monitored by various governments & their agencies, and any but the smallest of transactions now come with various ID requirements for the humans on each end.

Wow, that is almost over my head.  It sounds like those two quotes are saying that Bitcoin was designed to be free from taxes. That is what I always thought myself, but now the big concern we have to contend with is that the IRS is jumping in front of Bitcoiners and saying they want a piece of the action.  It's not surprising, but still.
 
 

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

Cool perspective and I agree, however, I am no where near as clever as Satoshi is/was.  Unless you guys come up with something that makes our Bitcoin un-taxable (by the IRS) then I am beginning to buckle under the pressure of uncertainty. I am starting to think that I'd rather just give up my KYC and be done with it, instead of being bogged down with figuring out how to be untraceable or stealthy like that.  Just being real, from the perspective of somebody that is not ultra computer savvy and lacking savvy hacker knowledge.

He just wanted people to free from fiat slavery, so no taxation ever mentioned.

Bitcoiners will need to join together and take a stand together against the Tax Man?  Essentially in the future people all around the world will decide they do not want to be taxed on their Bitcoin. A global currency. An uprising against the Tax Man is very possible, and probable.

[jseverson]

He just wanted people to free from fiat slavery, so no taxation ever mentioned.

Bitcoiners will need to join together and take a stand together against the Tax Man?  Essentially in the future people all around the world will decide they do not want to be taxed on their Bitcoin. A global currency. An uprising against the Tax Man is very possible, and probable.

One important distinction to be made from this is that our Bitcoin is not taxed per se. Our earnings from Bitcoin (and from whatever other source) however, is taxable under income tax laws. No one is taxed for simply owning or trading Bitcoin; there's always going to be profit involved somewhere.

It's completely up to the individual whatever they might think of taxes, but just because it's a different currency doesn't necessarily mean earnings derived from it shouldn't be taxable.

[o_e_l_e_o]

That is what I always thought myself, but now the big concern we have to contend with is that the IRS is jumping in front of Bitcoiners and saying they want a piece of the action.

This is by no means unique to bitcoin. The IRS want to stick their noses in everything. Bitcoin may seem different since it is actually a currency in its own right, but since the IRS class it as property, it will be taxed as property.

Let's say we are trading basketball cards. I swap you a rare Kobe Bryant card for a rare LeBron James card. No fiat changes hand. No values are even discussed. As far as the IRS is concerned, we both sold our cards to the other person for fiat, and then used that fiat to immediately buy the other person's card. We both owe taxes on the capital gain made, which is the difference between what we bought the card for originally, and what its market value was when we traded it to each other.

Do people report such trades and pay taxes? Largely no, but there is no publically accessible ledger of all basketball card trades.

[audaciousbeing]

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

When it comes to the issue of tax, it goes beyond the vision or decision of any individual. Its about the government running effectively. Any individual promising to cut on tax is just making such promises as a politician and nothing more because that is the machinery that keeps the country running. On whether Satoshi talks about it or not is beyond him and also would be contradictory to everything we have read about what bitcoin or crypto is all about. Again, a dream is only your dream before it being a success the moment that is done, a lot of interest groups would start showing face in ensuring how their interest would be protected and ensure they put in place processes to achieve that which in this case, government is not an exception.

[MonsterV]

I know the same (lack of intrinsic value) can be said of fiat currencies, but an artificial demand for fiat currencies is created by (among other things) taxation and legal-tender laws. Also, even a fiat currency can be an inflation hedge against another fiat currency's higher rate of inflation. But in the case of bitcoins the inflation rate of 35% is almost guaranteed by the technology, there are no supporting mechanisms for taxation, and no legal-tender laws. People will not hold assets in this highly-inflationary currency if they can help it.

Concluding from Ray Dillinger's words that bitcoin has no supporting mechanism to carry out taxation. I think that is absolutely right because bitcoin itself is a decentralized currency, which from the beginning was intended as an anonymous currency. How will taxation work in a decentralized currency? wouldn't that violate the basis of its creation?

Maybe in Ripple's eyes taxation could still be developed like that because the coin was included a centralized coin. Where from the beginning intended to rival fiat currencies.

[Febo]

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

Transaction fees are the tax you have to pay so your transaction happens. He told a lot about fees, just search for it.

[el kaka22]

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I really doubt Satoshi ever saw bitcoin becoming this big, he created something with the mindset of a person of academics and he was just focusing on making something that he thought would be a lot better alternative to fiat money but in the end he wasn't expecting millions of people trading billions of dollars everyday on a trillion dollar market. That is not something you would even dream about when you are making stuff up, like when I dream about having a big house of my own I am dreaming about stuff like american suborbian tv show houses not a huge castle in UK, that would be too unrealistic.

Well, same thing happened to Satoshi, he would have expected the close circle of him that is interested in this would definitely look into it but he wouldn't even dream of something this big.

[Kemarit]

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

I really doubt Satoshi ever saw bitcoin becoming this big, he created something with the mindset of a person of academics and he was just focusing on making something that he thought would be a lot better alternative to fiat money but in the end he wasn't expecting millions of people trading billions of dollars everyday on a trillion dollar market. That is not something you would even dream about when you are making stuff up, like when I dream about having a big house of my own I am dreaming about stuff like american suborbian tv show houses not a huge castle in UK, that would be too unrealistic.

Well, same thing happened to Satoshi, he would have expected the close circle of him that is interested in this would definitely look into it but he wouldn't even dream of something this big.

Right, of course he was a visionary but he didn't forsee his creation to grow this big after ten years so. I doubt that taxation has crossed his mind. His main goal is to create an alternative to fiat system, a technology with no central authority so obviously there should be no taxation.

However, as Bitcoin grows overtime no doubt that government is running after people which huge stash and wanted to get a piece of that pie.

Now the question boils down as how one will pay taxes or if someone is willing to do so?

[Nellayar]

None that I can remember upon reading some of his posts and interactions with other notable figures in bitcoin. From the looks of it, Satoshi seemed to be that anti-government guy that wants things to stay clear of government intervention and control that's why he created bitcoin. Also, his views are mainly crypto-anarchism, so that per se explicitly states that he will never ever support taxation in any way or form.

I did not also remember that I saw any taxation in bitcoin came from Satoshi Nakamoto. In fact, I think he does not want us to have negotiations against government since he want decentralisation and transparency among people. Well, we already paying indirect taxes in cryptocurrency. We just don't see it because it is in terms of satoshi only. Just like a fee in withdrawals or transferring btc to other wallet.

[timerland]

Wow, that is almost over my head.  It sounds like those two quotes are saying that Bitcoin was designed to be free from taxes. That is what I always thought myself, but now the big concern we have to contend with is that the IRS is jumping in front of Bitcoiners and saying they want a piece of the action.  It's not surprising, but still.

Bitcoiners will need to join together and take a stand together against the Tax Man?  Essentially in the future people all around the world will decide they do not want to be taxed on their Bitcoin. A global currency. An uprising against the Tax Man is very possible, and probable.

Yes and no, from my knowledge. I don't think BTC was invented to circumvent taxes, instead, it was a coin that was made to bring power to the people, and give them faster and more transparent transactions. Keep in mind, comparing BTC to wire transfer transactions is a hell of a lot faster, and that was one of the main issues that BTC was built to solve.

I don't think we'll get out of paying taxes any day soon. Taxes are always gonna be following us around.

Did Satoshi ever mention anything about the taxing of Bitcoin?

Transaction fees are the tax you have to pay so your transaction happens. He told a lot about fees, just search for it.

No, I don't think that it at all, taxes often take up 20-40 percent of your income, while TX fees are a couple of cents, and basically nothing. I wouldn't look at TX fees in this way at all!