The Inevitable Consensus Attack on Bitcoin

[Saltius]

1.Bitcoin's vaule is base on consensus.
2.Consensus is reached by all bitcoiners.
3.Mass adoption means so many average Joes will be new bitcoiners in the future.
4.Average Joes are unable,not willing to store and operate their own private keys.They don't even want to learn in the first place.
5.Govts would also educate them that storing your BTC in exchange with some sort of bitlicense is very same as storing BTC all by yourself.
6.That sounds like govt never print fiat more than needed.(Oh they can definately educate people what is need . Deos proper inflaton rate is necessary for good econemy ring a bell?)
7.When most average Joes put BTC in centralised and regulated institutions, govt got the space to manipulate or I'd say tame.
8.At last, new consensus would be built (when average Joes become majority among bitcoiners) that paper BTC in legal exchange is the same as BTC on chain. This consensus would break the 21 million limit so easily without a single line modified in code.(Maybe I should say it already happened since quite a few bitcoiners have chosen the convient way of putting BTC in exchanges.)
9.That is how the god damn govts tamed gold in the past. I don't want this shit happen again on Bitcoin.
10.But since we live on this miserable world, everything we don't want would happen eventually.

How to repel this attack?

BTW:I always think the idea of govts seizing most mining machines then launching 51% attack is so f*cking stupid. Why would they play swords against you when they have an armory consisting from guns to ICBMs at hand?

[pooya87]

you can't compare bitcoin with gold. since there is no way to store millions of dollars worth of gold in your home for both security reasons and lack of space. but you can easily store millions or billions of dollars worth of bitcoin at home in the safest manner possible and it will only take a tiny space (a piece of paper or a flash disk for instance)!
people went that route with gold, exactly because of this reason. it can not happen with bitcoin and the fact that some people are "day traders" and keep their coins on exchanges doesn't change that at all.

[avikz]

It has to be a consortium of governments to launch such attacks on bitcoin blockchain as bitcoin is not limited by the physical boundaries. So majority of the governments will have to come forward to execute such well planned attack on the mass and need to work on close conjugation. That's not gonna happen!

Also as Pooya87 correctly pointed out, that gold requires a lot of space and people can't really keep it at their home. But that's not the case with bitcoin. Even a beggar can store millions of bitcoins in a smartphone without letting the authorities know about it.

Your argument is possible theoretically but practical implementation is just not possible at this scale! 

[Saltius]

you can't compare bitcoin with gold. since there is no way to store millions of dollars worth of gold in your home for both security reasons and lack of space. but you can easily store millions or billions of dollars worth of bitcoin at home in the safest manner possible and it will only take a tiny space (a piece of paper or a flash disk for instance)!
people went that route with gold, exactly because of this reason. it can not happen with bitcoin and the fact that some people are "day traders" and keep their coins on exchanges doesn't change that at all.

The future issue I concern is that people won't use on chain bitcoin dispite what bitcoin actually is as you claim(Remember this consensus is never about truth or fact). Those who can't play computers well will just ask what would happen if they messed up their wallets storing seeds or keys while losing the backup in the same time. Should we reply them that then your coins are just gone for good? How about Coinbase jumping in and telling them to store their coins in their so-called custodial wallets in order to get rid of the fear to lose the store of value. And they can even buy insurance in case the coins were stolen. What would an average Joe choose you guess?

I just made bold of some words in your quote. I want to point out that these words may not fit for an average Joe.

[Saltius]

Recently my aunt just gave me 100,000 bucks to buy bitcoin for her.
She is willing to give such amount of money to me while too lazy to listen to my muttering about private keys,seeds,backup,signitures and the importance of self-sovereign.

She simply told me to keep the coins for her and she would pay me some mantaining fees.

Quite an easy target for Coinbase marketing right?

[odolvlobo]

Typically, the word "consensus" refers to the transaction and block validation rules, which is different from your "consensus".

Regardless, if Bitcoin goes mainstream, fractional reserve banking will be inevitable and there will effectively be 21 billion bitcoins, not 21 million. That will have a major effect on the price of course.

[Baronets]

We can do our bit to help by persuading people to run pruned nodes.

[carter34]

Talking on how to repel what has helped many believers into better living, there isn't anything to repel because is already doing wonders with people. Bitcoin is stepping across and going beyond more than gold because is also used for financial transaction.

[Mandoy]

Though they may be possible consensus attack on bitcoin but I can still say that bitcoin will say the same. If there will be new consensus against the current bitcoin then again there will be a fork. There are still bitcoin defenders who would want to stick with satoshis original plan and will not allow for the 21 million bitcoins to go more than that number. Also big whales and other big institution and finance groups who are into bitcoin will not allow such kind of activity since it means they will lose a lot.

[Red-Apple]

why are you calling it "consensus" since it has nothing to do with consensus! price is not determined by people coming together and talk it out to decide what the price should be when they come to an agreement!
the price is based on supply and demand which looks more like war, where each person is trying to outbid others in a cut throat competition so that they could get their hands on bitcoin as cheap as possible.
and don't you worry, majority of those who get their hands on bitcoin are never going to leave it with any third party. they will transfer it to their cold storages.

[Saltius]

why are you calling it "consensus" since it has nothing to do with consensus! price is not determined by people coming together and talk it out to decide what the price should be when they come to an agreement!

I said no price at all.
Value does not equal to price. Back to the time when Satoshi created bitcoin, it has no price at all but definately has some value. Otherwise Satoshi and Hal wouldn't devote any time to it.

the price is based on supply and demand which looks more like war, where each person is trying to outbid others in a cut throat competition so that they could get their hands on bitcoin as cheap as possible.

I doubt exchanges have already increased the supply.

and don't you worry, majority of those who get their hands on bitcoin are never going to leave it with any third party. they will transfer it to their cold storages.

That's what I concern exactly as I have no faith.
Mtgox disaster should have never happened if they deserved such faith.

[Saltius]

We can do our bit to help by persuading people to run pruned nodes.

I think that's no enough.
The mass adoption may not be a good sign at all if community are unable to educate new bitcoiners what true bitcoin is distinguish it from the IOU issues by exchanges at the same pace.

BTW: I failed on my aunt making me frustrated.

[Lauda]

This nonsense attack vector is the least of our worries. Start educating yourself and acknowledging real problems.

BTW:I always think the idea of govts seizing most mining machines then launching 51% attack is so f*cking stupid. Why would they play swords against you when they have an armory consisting from guns to ICBMs at hand?

Game theory, geopolitics anyone? Both of those scenarios are equally ridiculous that only a childish mind could consider them to be true issues. If it is in America's interest to destroy Bitcoin, then it is in the opposition's interest to keep it safe and use it. The same applies vice-versa. The more time passes, the less this nonsense needs to be even laughed at.

Regardless, if Bitcoin goes mainstream, fractional reserve banking will be inevitable and there will effectively be 21 billion bitcoins, not 21 million. That will have a major effect on the price of course.

There will never be more than 21m Bitcoin, fractional reserve banking or not. Nobody can force you to play along with such schemes, only your own ignorant self.

[stompix]

1.Bitcoin's vaule is base on consensus.

It's based on demand and offer.
There is never a consensus or a majority of opinion for this, that's why we have those 5 to 25% swings a day.
If there was a consensus the price would be flat.

I said no price at all.
Value does not equal to price. Back to the time when Satoshi created bitcoin, it has no price at all but definately has some value. Otherwise Satoshi and Hal wouldn't devote any time to it.

Oh, you made me curious!!!
How do you measure this value if not using money, roentgen?
What's today's value of bitcoin? 3.6?

9.That is how the god damn govts tamed gold in the past. I don't want this shit happen again on Bitcoin.

Unlike gold you can withdraw your coins from an exchange, you never have the option to do that with gold trading.
In the gold business, you will never know how much gold is in the world or if somebody has indeed the gold they claim.
In crypto, a signed message is better than 300 photoshopped pictures.

How to repel this attack?

Buy some kryptonite (not the shitcoin).
How to repel an attack that has not been launched, it has no reason to be launched it's not actually an attack  
Kryptonite and tinfoil will do wonders!

[Saltius]

1.Bitcoin's vaule is base on consensus.

It's based on demand and offer.
There is never a consensus or a majority of opinion for this, that's why we have those 5 to 25% swings a day.
If there was a consensus the price would be flat.

If there wasn't a consensus then how could you use bitcoin as a store of value?
Besides, why do some guys not saying bitcoin a store of price if value just equals price then?

I said no price at all.
Value does not equal to price. Back to the time when Satoshi created bitcoin, it has no price at all but definately has some value. Otherwise Satoshi and Hal wouldn't devote any time to it.

Oh, you made me curious!!!
How do you measure this value if not using money, roentgen?
What's today's value of bitcoin? 3.6?

You have never been told bitcoin is money itself so basically 1BTC is always 1BTC, haven't you?
Regardless, I know you said money meanning fiat. Then how do you acknowledge the price of 1BTC in some certain fiat?
I guess from exchanges right? Unfortunately, the price showed in exchanges are actually of BTC IOUs issued by exchanges.
That's simple because when you click buy button, no bitcoin is sent to your wallet at all.

9.That is how the god damn govts tamed gold in the past. I don't want this shit happen again on Bitcoin.

Unlike gold you can withdraw your coins from an exchange, you never have the option to do that with gold trading.

Really? In Feb 2017, goverment barred customers from withdrawing bitcoin in exchanges in China.
Guess you are sure that won't happen in US in the future because US has a good record not confusticating store of value from its cizens right?

In the gold business, you will never know how much gold is in the world or if somebody has indeed the gold they claim.
In crypto, a signed message is better than 300 photoshopped pictures.

Then have CZ or Brian Armstrong shown the signature of Binance or Coinbase's reserve addresses to you?
How do you know that their IOUs are 100% backed.

Or you were just trying to make people believe that paper BTC in exchanges is equal to on chain BTC?
(Oh, it seems that there is no need for govt to attack in the first place. You guys have surrendered.)

[stompix]

Or you were just trying to make people believe that paper BTC in exchanges is equal to on chain BTC?
(Oh, it seems that there is no need for govt to attack in the first place. You guys have surrendered.)

That's your main problem, you see things that are not there.

!

If there wasn't a consensus then how could you use bitcoin as a store of value?

A consensus between two people is not a consensus of all the people owning bitcoin.
Just because a guy thinks buying a Jetta is a great deal it doesn't mean everybody in the world will start buying that.
Consensus between two people and the consensus of the network are two different things.,

That's why we have buy orders at 10500, 10501, 10502, 10503, and sell orders at 10600...you get the idea...hopefully
So this:

2.Consensus is reached by all bitcoiners.

Is wrong.

So why some guys not saying bitcoin a store of price if value just equals price then?
Besides,you have never been told bitcoin is money itself so basically 1BTC is 1BTC, haven't you?
Regardless, I know you said money meanning fiat. Then how do you acknowledge the price of 1BTC in some certain fiat?
I guess from exchanges right? Unfortunately, the price showed in exchanges are actually of BTC IOUs issued by exchanges.
That's simple because when you click buy button, no bitcoin is sent to your wallet at all.

When you quote a question, usually you're supposed to answer it, not write anything BUT the answer.
So, again, I'm asking you, what's the VALUE of bitcoin?

[Saltius]

So why some guys not saying bitcoin a store of price if value just equals price then?
Besides,you have never been told bitcoin is money itself so basically 1BTC is 1BTC, haven't you?
Regardless, I know you said money meanning fiat. Then how do you acknowledge the price of 1BTC in some certain fiat?
I guess from exchanges right? Unfortunately, the price showed in exchanges are actually of BTC IOUs issued by exchanges.
That's simple because when you click buy button, no bitcoin is sent to your wallet at all.

When you quote a question, usually you're supposed to answer it, not write anything BUT the answer.
So, again, I'm asking you, what's the VALUE of bitcoin?

The value of bitcoin is the first permissionless transaction and ledger system in modern world. This is my answer.
I have pointed out price is not value.And I never said price in the first place.
So don't ask me how to estimate the price of one bitcoin.

BTW: To me altcoins have no value though someone would buy them at some price.

[hatshepsut93]

Then this army of average joe's will fork Bitcoin while old school Bitcoiners, including Bitcoin developers will stick to the original chain. It doesn't even matter much which chain will be bigger or more valuable, Bitcoin will still be Bitcoin at the end of the day. But this all sounds like yet another overly complex scheme to get rid of Bitcoin, governments can simply outlaw it and there will be no mass adoption after that, who would want to risk breaking the law just to use money?

[Artemis3]

Recently my aunt just gave me 100,000 bucks to buy bitcoin for her.
She is willing to give such amount of money to me while too lazy to listen to my muttering about private keys,seeds,backup,signitures and the importance of self-sovereign.

She simply told me to keep the coins for her and she would pay me some mantaining fees.

Quite an easy target for Coinbase marketing right?

No, you are just being used as a full reserve bank. Ie. Shut up and keep my money safe, I'll pay you for that...

Most banks used to be like this until about two centuries ago when they started switching to fractional reserve. But i rather skip the history lesson.

If you study Austrian economics, you'll discover that is exactly how a deflationary economy operates.

This is perfectly fine, as people should neither be obliged to either, keep their coins themselves, or give them to a third party. The important thing is having the choice.

[Kakmakr]

The fake bitcoins generated within rogue exchange ledger software, is not the same as real bitcoins on the public Bitcoin Blockchain. You cannot generate more real bitcoins than what is stipulated and decided by the majority consensus in the code, so I am not worried about that.

We warn people about the risk of using these third party exchanges and Crypto currency Investment sites on a daily basis, but they still use them, so if they lose money out of greed and convenience, then it is their problem. Own the Private keys or you have ZERO bitcoins.