Fake-branded bars slip dirty gold into world markets

[atjiat]

Based on what you said, I could assume that gold business is very bad and this despite the fact that this business is legal and is under state control in every country.  If such a situation exists in the gold market, then what can we talk about the use of cryptocurrency in criminal activity.

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[fiulpro]

Well you know I belong to a family who is into this gold business ..so I know how easy it is .. for anyone to actually keep millions of gold at house ..money laundering ..black market ... Buying illegal things and all ...it is not tracable and it can actually be hidden all the way out ..
Many politicians and other people actually hide the money in terms of gold and it gets messy but once it's hidden good then you can use it for anything.
Also girls use the benefit of transportation of gold through aeroplanes and all so it is actually easier to play in the black market .

[SquallLeonhart]

Based on what you said, I could assume that gold business is very bad and this despite the fact that this business is legal and is under state control in every country.  If such a situation exists in the gold market, then what can we talk about the use of cryptocurrency in criminal activity.

In all this, one thing that struck my mind is that government can now see that bitcoin is not the only devil that they do see bad people send on an errand, bad things do happen everywhere in every system, and no system is a saint, it is just the ability of those who we put in authority to control and protect the system rather than criticizing it.

With all these that is happening around gold also, why has governments that has been antagonizing bitcoin not criticized it, but rather, they are doing their best to make it a safe haven by fighting of the criminal activities around it. is that not what they are supposed to do for bitcoin also, so that it can make things right with all these system that involves digital assets.

[STT]

but I don't get how it is being used to launder money

Anytime theres a cheaper source of something that can be sold at a higher price, crime will attempt to short circuit that potential difference for profit.    Arbitrage is what crime does just with no regard to proper ownership or legal hindrance, we cant be surprised this is an ongoing problem.

What should really be happening is the gold for vaults is sourced from mines and financing is never short for honest companies.   As I hear it, mines are often left short because risks has big money preferring government and the easy win of QE programs and certain gains from that.      Thats good for me as an investor because the premium and gap in the market gives a better return for those investors who do take an interest in gold as a bull market and that central banks have been net buyers for over ten years now.

    Its a good idea to post this article to underline that pretty much every monetary type can become fraudulent and aid crime in gaining funding and profits.   The bigger the market, the more attractive it is to large fraud and rogue national agents as the money is easier to 'lose'.   BTC of course has good tracking and is open in comparison, its a poor criticism.

the counterfeits are good enough that they've been found in the vaults of jpmorgan chase.

Common practise by those who buy in the millions, vault owners is to melt down the gold and rebrand it.   I believe thats how its done probably partly to disown any previous ownership, imagine how much gold is controlled during the previous world wars or the fall of various nations, Libya being the most recent with giant reserves as I recall.

[BitHodler]

Common practise by those who buy in the millions, vault owners is to melt down the gold and rebrand it.   I believe thats how its done probably partly to disown any previous ownership, imagine how much gold is controlled during the previous world wars or the fall of various nations, Libya being the most recent with giant reserves as I recall.

I actually like that aspect of gold. It just requires you to melt it and then cast gold bars to get rid of any taint. This is where Bitcoin lacks, because coins that are lost are lost for ever, which can be problem long term speaking.

Gold on the other hand can be re-used even after thousands of years. It doesn't lose any of its properties. And yes, this property of gold can be and is already quite frequently abused by criminals and even central banks.

No way that central banks don't know what and who they buy from. They just don't care what brand and number has been stamped into the bar because it's still pure gold at the end of the day. It's worth just as much as their other bars.

[Kakmakr]

This is one of the things that popular media usually ignore, when they report on Bitcoin and money laundering. The highly regulated Gold industry and trading platforms are not immune to criminal syndicates that knows how to infiltrate these institutions and how to use this to launder their "dirty" money.

The media is quick to point fingers at Bitcoin, but the formal Banking sector and large financial organizations are doing this on a much larger scale, without people even knowing this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/business/standard-chartered-sanctions-violations.html

[SquallLeonhart]

This is one of the things that popular media usually ignore, when they report on Bitcoin and money laundering. The highly regulated Gold industry and trading platforms are not immune to criminal syndicates that knows how to infiltrate these institutions and how to use this to launder their "dirty" money.

The media is quick to point fingers at Bitcoin, but the formal Banking sector and large financial organizations are doing this on a much larger scale, without people even knowing this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/business/standard-chartered-sanctions-violations.html

They are castigating bitcoin because they know that bitcoin will block some of this means for them, I mean the banks, and for government, they are just fighting a wring course and there are so many things that is of threat and danger to the economy more than just bitcoin. The best they would have just done for bitcoin is to regulate it as much as they regulated the gold also, prior to when gold was regulated too.

I am sure that some of these challenges would have hindered it a lot before government steps in to create regulation for it, but I believe that with time, government will serious consider bitcoin and then create the necessary regulation that will limit the crime rate in it, and maybe would be same level with gold, when it is able to pass as store of value.

[Indamuck]

At least bitcoin isn't easy to counterfeit

Everyone who buys gold should have a simple test kit and if they are purchasing large bars only buy them from a reputable dealer.  I do like bitcoin a lot but I still think gold is a solid hedge because it has held value for thousands of years.

[bryant.coleman]

I am not entirely sure about this. From what I have heard, the bullion bars from the Swiss refineries come with certificates and these certificates are not very easy to counterfeit. Also, the bars will be having a unique serial number and most of the retailers keep a detailed log of the serial numbers and the shipment details (in case the owners are not anonymous).

That said, it is true that a lot of unaccounted money is being moved in the form of gold. It has become the primary route to circumvent the sanctions for North Korea (along with crypto-currency). Gold from North Korean mines are being sold in the markets of Northeast China, although it is against the UN sanctions and embargoes. Also, gold illegally mined from national parks and reserves from the Amazon rainforest also ends up as unaccounted gold.

[STT]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/business/standard-chartered-sanctions-violations.html

I know this bank and have held shares in them, its an ancient bank and at times very profitable but not because its criminal but due to involvement with developing nations across the commonwealth and Asia which can be a very profitable position of arbitrage.    It helps illustrate why central authorities dislike or fear Bitcoin because it is not centralised, it cannot be controlled or easily rebuked as happened to Standard Chartered.    
   Stan must clear dollars in order to do business and taking part in that market requires the pass of various regulators and exchanges based in the USA, this means even as a global bank largely based outside the west they still are under the remit of the laws and sanctions of a country(s) in the west.   The UN is often not so powerful as it lacks the depth of power in this way so its left to supporting nations such as USA or similar to enable the actions taken behind the headlines that sanctions bring.  
   If BTC has no central authority, no reigns to control its usage it can easily be seen as a problem by some.   Its a threat to politics and the control they want over various countries, it doesn't have to be doing anything especially bad just the fact it exists and its large enough to move hefty amounts of cash through is some kind of latent threat it seems.
  Gold is at least heavy and subject to physical confiscation and control, BTC is instant and undefinable in regulation terms almost.

[fullhdpixel]

Hell the regular investments are so crooked that most of the time stock brokers have insider info on stuff they invest whereas we are watching from outside like something brand new happened.

Most people have even spies on other companies so they would know whats going on and they that person a percentage of the money they make from the information they gave. Hence there is really no clean guys in regular investment neither, yes there are many scammers and money launderers in crypto that is true, however its same as the drug dealer problem, they say bitcoin makes drug dealers work easier online but before 2008 there was still a lot of drug dealers right? They didn't start working after 2008, it was always a thing. Same goes for financially bad people.

[markj113]

At least bitcoin isn't easy to counterfeit

Everyone who buys gold should have a simple test kit and if they are purchasing large bars only buy them from a reputable dealer.  I do like bitcoin a lot but I still think gold is a solid hedge because it has held value for thousands of years.

These bars are real gold, they are just stamped with fake refinery stamps.

[shield132]

I knew people were trying all the best to mix some other metals and include less gold in bars in order to sell 450gm gold in price of 500mg (for example) but what I see now is unbelievable, they are just faking brand but with very high purity and quality gold, that's insane.
So gold is still pretty great thing for money laundering because people can fake it.
But can people fake bitcoin? No, who not anyone talks about it from governments? Shit politics.

[TheCoinGrabber]

Meh, wouldn't mind it much though this is good news for bitcoins. At least the bars are still true gold. I guess such bars would be a pain to dispose if found out to be "fake" but maybe there can be other ways to use those.

I don't know the laws in the US but are people allowed to have their gold melted down?

[Harlot]

And I guessed this is also the reason why Gold has started to climb back up several months already. No wonder that this happened as it has obviously affected the demand for gold somehow making it available to all the buyers who are interested. The thing is how can they do such action of a trademarket violation when the product itself is no different than being a real gold itself, it's just being misrepresented by the use of their own logo/branding without their permission? If I were a buyer and I am not sure if the gold bare I am buying is real then it is safe to back off rather than see it being confiscated in the future. The more pressing issue here is the gold bars being used to launder money itself and I'm surprised the JP Morgan was not implicated of any criminal charges of possessing some to their assets.

[exstasie]

At least bitcoin isn't easy to counterfeit

Everyone who buys gold should have a simple test kit and if they are purchasing large bars only buy them from a reputable dealer.  I do like bitcoin a lot but I still think gold is a solid hedge because it has held value for thousands of years.

These bars are real gold, they are just stamped with fake refinery stamps.

This story actually showcases one way that gold is superior. Stolen, conflict, or otherwise tainted gold can be melted down and re-stamped. This is much harder to trace than a public blockchain like Bitcoin where every transaction is permanently stored.

With Bitcoin, the best you can do is mix your coin taint with others. With gold, taint can be completely erased.

[hatshepsut93]

This story actually showcases one way that gold is superior. Stolen, conflict, or otherwise tainted gold can be melted down and re-stamped. This is much harder to trace than a public blockchain like Bitcoin where every transaction is permanently stored.

With Bitcoin, the best you can do is mix your coin taint with others. With gold, taint can be completely erased.

Is that really that different though? If mixing is good enough, the coins are as tainted as any other coin on the blockchain. And gold might not be perfect either, if someone really wanted, they could craft traceable gold bars by adding some isotopes or chemical markers. Or just using existing techniques - see here.

Meh, wouldn't mind it much though this is good news for bitcoins.

I don't think that it's either good or bad for Bitcoin, in grand scheme of things it's irrelevant to Bitcoin.

[binhvo1505]

wow, this is really a big deal. When the demand is greater than the supply, there will be traders who turn a piece of metal into real gold in a sophisticated way. sometimes those who import gold to sell to customers have encountered this situation.
If this news is widely circulated, I think gold prices will fall sharply.

[RealMalatesta]

I think there is a big difference between having faking a "brand" of gold and actually faking a gold bar. I mean if you fake a gold bar it would be quite easy to understand if its real or not, it is literally gold, if it is gold than it is, if not then it is not. Its not like paper money, it is not like fiat paper money where you can print more money and if its good quality then people wouldn't understand it.

There are a lot of people who print fake money and get away with it, this is not like that, gold is literally a material and you can check to see if it is actually gold. However the news is faking the brand of the gold which actually does put a value on it, I mean same with diamonds, normally they are worthless but with a brand they worth a lot, gold at least worth a lot without the brand as well.

[TheCoinGrabber]

This story actually showcases one way that gold is superior. Stolen, conflict, or otherwise tainted gold can be melted down and re-stamped. This is much harder to trace than a public blockchain like Bitcoin where every transaction is permanently stored.

With Bitcoin, the best you can do is mix your coin taint with others. With gold, taint can be completely erased.

Is that really that different though? If mixing is good enough, the coins are as tainted as any other coin on the blockchain. And gold might not be perfect either, if someone really wanted, they could craft traceable gold bars by adding some isotopes or chemical markers. Or just using existing techniques - see here.

Meh, wouldn't mind it much though this is good news for bitcoins.

I don't think that it's either good or bad for Bitcoin, in grand scheme of things it's irrelevant to Bitcoin.

I meant in the way that people kept accusing Bitcoin as easy to counterfeit or launder. We've always made the argument that the same can be said for fiat, this one shows that even gold experts can be fooled.

With the fingerprinting, I wonder if pawnshops are equipped to detect doped gold. If I bought cheap gold bars and found out it's not "real" simply because it's lacking some seals, I'd be worried how I'll dispose it to get my money back. If they are doped but can pass through pawnshops undetected I might try to have them crafted into jewelry.