Merit source observations

[skarais]

Merit Sources shouldn't need to do merit hoarding, because when they make a Vision and Mission when applying to become a Merit Source, they often attach a history of their achievement statistics. Speaking of the first batch of Merit Source assignments, there are still many things that need to be addressed, maybe they are stingy because they have difficulty finding worthy users in their post history reviews to be appreciated or have other activities outside the forum that cannot be abandoned, in the end, many monthly sMerit allocations are piled up.

Most merit source are handpicked by theymos and send them pm to inquire about availability, and as far as I know there are only a few of that apply to be merit source which are then selectively added to the source.

I would not say that the merit source is stingy especially since it is free work for them. In the past I've complained about the consistently high post quality requirement that multiple merit source maintain on both local or global board, but this assumption was eventually debunked when I studied how the system worked. You should know that you cannot expect all merit source to have the same methods and criteria, currently 111 merit source have different criteria and this will add to the uniqueness of the system. If 1-5 source are stingy, it doesn't mean that the other 106-110 source are also stingy.

We never know if haven't tried it, the opportunity needs to be given to non-merit source users who are very active in distributing sMerit to other forum members. I also found some Merit Source Applications that have not been accepted, I thought Theymos should give it a try as some local councils also need Merit Source.

Changes need to be made on a rotating basis to reduce potential problems, Theymos should be more active in overseeing stingy Merit Sources and immediately rotate with new Source. I think if done like this, Merit Source will be even more active in distributing monthly sMerit allocations to deserving users (please correct if I'm wrong).

I know that adding some merit source or replacing inactive ones can improve distribution across multiple board. As one of the users who have submitted merit source applications, I have never forced the admin to accept me because I think some people are still willing to help on the local board or maybe merited some of my posts which I then distribute to the local board. But of course my contribution won't be much improvement, but at least it will continue as long as I have sMerit. Unfortunately while now it has to stop because of 0 sMerit.

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[JayJuanGee]

And, merit hoarding for regular members is surely less of an issue than for merit sources, and I am pretty sure that in the first round of merit source member assignments, some of those members who were assigned as merit sources, were really stingy regarding their sending out merits, and some of them even publicly stated such.

Merit Sources shouldn't need to do merit hoarding, because when they make a Vision and Mission when applying to become a Merit Source, they often attach a history of their achievement statistics. Speaking of the first batch of Merit Source assignments, there are still many things that need to be addressed, maybe they are stingy because they have difficulty finding worthy users in their post history reviews to be appreciated or have other activities outside the forum that cannot be abandoned, in the end, many monthly sMerit allocations are piled up.

Probably it is worth repeating that the very first batch of merit source members were selected by theymos based on whatever he thought might make a good merit source.. perhaps based on their past contributions to the forum.. but a decent number of the initial selection ended up being merit hoarders... .. also the system was new, so it likely took a little bit of time to get used to the idea of sending smerits and also for theymos to see how it played out in those first couple of years.. 

I surely don't feel like I have enough information to know whether some improvement could be made in terms of either rotating merit source members a bit more or if there might be some improvements if theymos might increase the number of merit source members.. because there does seem to be a bit of work in making those kinds of assessments, and surely sometimes there are likely some issues with how some of the merit source members (and not even excluding myself from the potential problem areas) are sending smerits and/or unfairly benefiting from their being assigned as a merit source member... .but likely theymos does also recognize that even if some of us might be sloppy and neglectful and maybe even deliberately bad from time to time in how we are either sending smerits or refraining from sending smerits, he likely also recognizes and appreciates that there is quite a bit of work that may well go into merit source members figuring out their own approach to the matter and then actually employing it on a daily/weekly and even monthly basis (as Philip mentioned the very issue that he has had with building up of smerits and some dilemmas regarding how to spend them in a way that is comfortable for the merit source member as well as other real life issues that s/he may well have happening)..

We never know if haven't tried it, the opportunity needs to be given to non-merit source users who are very active in distributing sMerit to other forum members.

Personally, I am very much in favor of the idea of increasing the number of merit source members or even rotating some of the merit source members.. I do speculate that theymos has some reservations in regards to being too rash in terms of making changes.. and a rotating system might cause a lot of work for him and a lot of frustration from merit source members.. and might even cause resentment from non-merit source members to be making changes very frequently.. so there might be downsides in terms of attempting to be very creative in the process.. but the injection of 20 to 50 new merit source members might be a good idea.. but maybe even that might not have as many upsides as it seems to have on the face of the matter.

Another possibility could be that theymos could try to delegate some of his responsibilities in regards to the whole merit source system and appoint a merit source czar that would oversee the whole system.. but that might well bring on some of its own issues.. even if theymos feels some burdens in carrying out those duties himself, too.

I recall at one point there seemed to have had been some thoughts that the merit system might be able to replace the trust system.. and then there are goals of having systems that might play out in more decentralized kinds of ways.. but then at the same time, there seems to be no real escaping some of the allegiances and alliances that form, and also sometimes the injustices that play out with some of the drama, too... even seemingly really good forum members might end up going through melt-downs of sorts.. there would likely be a lot of pissed off members if there were a discovery that the merit system would replace the trust system..


.....,and for sure, even when the merit system went into place, there were some of us who were assigned as merit source members (including yours truly) who had little to no clue that such a system was going to be going into effect, and it can seem like a kind of April fools joke to sign in and to try to figure out "what the fuck is this?" and to find out that you have been assigned as a merit source, and don't even really know what it is, yet... so knowledge does evolve on the topic and we get used to it. and sometimes the transition can be confusing, including if theymos were to proclaim that the merit system was going to be taken away.. that would likely cause disgruntled folks, too.

I also found some Merit Source Applications that have not been accepted, I thought Theymos should give it a try as some local councils also need Merit Source.

Yes.. some of those merit source applications seem to sit for a long time (years perhaps?) without any assignment of any new merit source member for certain areas of the forum.

Changes need to be made on a rotating basis to reduce potential problems, Theymos should be more active in overseeing stingy Merit Sources and immediately rotate with new Source.

Personally, it seems difficult to conclude that something "needs to be done" - if not knowing enough information regarding what problem might "need to be" solved... I am not going to proclaim to know if I do not see reports or investigations into reports... .. and, sure there might be some parts of the forum that seem to have some leaders or even more contributory members. and how might we know, or not know, if there might be some concerns about certain kinds of activities or if there might be some thoughts about various members who might be appointed as merit source members and if that might be helpful or maybe it would not necessarily be helpful to the situation in that local.. I would not really be able to globally know without having some specifics in regards to posting activities and reports at minimum.. and even some of the moderators might have some of their own views on the topic about which theymos is attempting to account for, too.

I think if done like this, Merit Source will be even more active in distributing monthly sMerit allocations to deserving users (please correct if I'm wrong).

You may well know about some areas of the forum in which I have hardly any clue about the dynamics.. so sure you could be correct about the need for one or two more merit sources being needed in a certain area of the forum.. but I doubt that we can conclude that theymos is not doing enough merely based on an assertion that there might exist a seemingly obvious solution that might include increasing merit source members (or rotating merit source members or removing a merit source member) in one or more areas of the forum.

[fillippone]

I recall at one point there seemed to have had been some thoughts that the merit system might be able to replace the trust system.. and then there are goals of having systems that might play out in more decentralized kinds of ways.. but then at the same time, there seems to be no real escaping some of the allegiances and alliances that form, and also sometimes the injustices that play out with some of the drama, too... even seemingly really good forum members might end up going through melt-downs of sorts.. there would likely be a lot of pissed off members if there were a discovery that the merit system would replace the trust system..

I think that, with current rules, merit and trust systems assolve very different functions on the forum. While merit system attains the effort put on the forum, the trust system attain “judgment” on the “trust” each one of us can put on a certain users.
As also recent event have demonstrated, the two aspects are often correlated, but can be also take opposite directions.
And the damage in the second scenario greatly overcome the benefit of a single system.

[Welsh]

And, merit hoarding for regular members is surely less of an issue than for merit sources, and I am pretty sure that in the first round of merit source member assignments, some of those members who were assigned as merit sources, were really stingy regarding their sending out merits, and some of them even publicly stated such.

Right, I'd probably agree with that. If a merit source isn't spending the majority of their spending allocation, it's probably a good time to reconsider them as a merit source, but only really if you think someone else would be able to replace the amount they're sending, and in a somewhat useful way.

I think if we look at it at implementation, users didn't really understand the importance of merit, and there was a lot of experimenting so large amounts were thrown around initially. However, as the standards set by the community sort of came into play, so did the stinginess you talk about. Basically, merit is like bloody gold these days, and you'll find even some very good posts only receiving one merit at a time. theymos did counteract that by increasing merit source allocation though. So, the answer doesn't always have to be new merit sources, but increasing the allocation of the current merit sources. Although, currently I think we're at the sweet spot, since most merit sources are probably only just about spending their allocation every month, and any more would likely be wasted.

Otherwise I agree with your overall assessment Razmirraz that it appears that current merit source members are way more inclined to liberally send smerits as compared to either the first batch of merit source members and perhaps even the second batch.. so it may well have taken a bit more than a couple of years to get each of the incremental improvements in achieving more liberal sending of smerits from merit source members.

There's also the issue of attrition over time a certain duty might become a little less exciting to certain users, or they might feel they aren't making as big of an impact as they once were. Some will get bored of only sending merit to the same users, time over time, and get frustrated that newer users aren't popping up as often as before. I guess what I'm trying to say is natural variation will take course, and therefore habits will change over time. That either means we need to do something about getting more eyes on the forum, getting new merit sources or increasing the allocations of the current merit sources.

[fillippone]

1 year and I come back.

• Honestly, I did not check merit sources page in many months
• So I don't know when the latest change was made
• But the update is, currently "there are 110 merit sources with a total merit generation of up to 33989 sMerit per 30 days"
• It is minor change compares to 1 year ago, in July 2021. I guess 1 merit source was removed.

I checked the page today, as someone told me there were MS removals.

it says:

Merit sources

There are 110 merit sources with a total merit generation of up to 33989 sMerit per 30 days

so no change since @Thranthidung last checked.


Am I daydreaming or there was a graph for this?

[Jet Cash]

The stupid covid panicdemic forced me to change quite a few things. I used to spend a lot of time drinking coffee in McDonalds and using the computer. I don't go into snack bars any more, and I'm spending more time in the van next to the  sea or in the woods. It's a great life. I feel a bit guilty, as I'm still a merit source with lots to spend.. I bought a couple of classic Volvo cars amongst other things, so I'm spending a lot less time on line.

I feel a bit guilty, as I'm still a Bitcoin maximalist and hodler, and I suspect Bitcoin Talk is still the best pace to discuss Bitcoin. I've had a look round today, and I don't recognise any of the currently active posters. Hopefully I'll be able to spend a bit more time here, and I hope to start using the lightning network to spend and replenish small amounts of Bitcoin.

[fillippone]

I feel a bit guilty, as I'm still a Bitcoin maximalist and hodler, and I suspect Bitcoin Talk is still the best pace to discuss Bitcoin. I've had a look round today, and I don't recognise any of the currently active posters. Hopefully I'll be able to spend a bit more time here, and I hope to start using the lightning network to spend and replenish small amounts of Bitcoin.

You don't have to feel even a bit guilty about this. The important things is stay bitcoiner at hearth, spending your precious satoshi where you think it is worth.
Regarding your merit source role, Theymos will eventually take action , if he is dissatisfied of what you are doing. No need to worry or to judge you.

Regarding you not recognising anyone, I don't know hat to say. Communities evolve, often in a way we didn't foresee. But rest assured bitcointalk.opg IS the best place where to discuss bitcoin.

Apart form that: ^{Did you start mining in your van?}

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Hopefully I'll be able to spend a bit more time here, and I hope to start using the lightning network to spend and replenish small amounts of Bitcoin.

Great to see you back, Jet Cash!  Of course I always say that whenever you reappear--though truthfully if you were posting in sections like B&H I wouldn't know if you'd taken a vacation or not.  I've been meaning to learn more about using the lightning network, but I've just been too mentally lazy.

You obviously haven't been active as a merit source in the past 120 days (no criticism, just observation), and that makes me wonder how active some of the lesser-known, or completely unknown, sources are and whether Theymos is keeping an eye on things.  I'd think if a merit source isn't distributing many merits, he might want to think about either adding new ones or replacing sources that aren't active.  I don't know if 33989 merits in 30 days is good or not, though I imagine the community would make some noise if it wasn't. 

On the other hand, aside from the typical threads in Meta about how to earn merits there haven't been any real complaints that it's impossible to rank up in quite some time.  It could be that lower-ranked members have resigned themselves to staying at Jr. Member or thereabouts.  I honestly don't know what to think.

[dzungmobile]

Merit bell

Not sure when it happened but today I saw.
1 merit source removed.
Total source merit drops from 33989 to 33940.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats=sources

• But the update is, currently "there are 110 merit sources with a total merit generation of up to 33989 sMerit per 30 days"

[tranthidung]

Merit bell

The total merit sources number is still 109 but total sourced merit drops a lot from 33940 to 33140. There is less 800 sourced merit each 30 days than the last merit bell.

There are 109 merit sources with a total merit generation of up to 33140 sMerit per 30 days

Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats=sources

[Halab]

There is less 800 sourced merit each 30 days than the last merit bell.

Indeed, it's a -1000 (there's no great mystery behind the disappearance of this MS) and a +200 (it's more a correction of an "anomaly" for this new MS).

[tranthidung]

Indeed, it's a -1000 (there's no great mystery behind the disappearance of this MS) and a +200 (it's more a correction of an "anomaly" for this new MS).

I knew there are some changes because total merit sources number is the same but total sourced merit drops significantly.

It's a long time I did not check that page and even when all stats are the same, there are possibly something changes internally too like increase and decrease of sourced merits among current merit sources.

Thank you for your information Halab.

[hg_away]

There is less 800 sourced merit each 30 days than the last merit bell.

Indeed, it's a -1000 (there's no great mystery behind the disappearance of this MS) and a +200 (it's more a correction of an "anomaly" for this new MS).

Can you find out who was deleted? Most 200 Merit sources are for local boards only.

[dzungmobile]

Can you find out who was deleted?

You can make your guess and it is very likely right. Symmetrick.

Can a merit source re-start Ratimov merit threads.

Today I am leaving the [banned mixer] campaign, thank you for the opportunity to represent this service.

Symmetrick wants to take a break or leave the forum so it makes sense if he sent a request to be removed as a merit source.

Most 200 Merit sources are for local boards only.

I am not sure about it.

New merit source can be reported in [TOP-200] The most generous users giving merits with next updates in that thread.

[digaran]

I have ordered 2 stripers and 4 bottles of champaign, lets see who is this lucky new source! They haven't publicly announced it yet themselves? Why, too shy? 😉

[fillippone]

Wondering if someone guessed who this new merit source is.
Also, I think the forum lost another heavyweight merit source.
Theymos needs to replace him as well, I am afraid.

[Aanuoluwatofunmi]

Wondering if someone guessed who this new merit source is.
Also, I think the forum lost another heavyweight merit source.
Theymos needs to replace him as well, I am afraid.

It will be our utmost desire to see that Theymos give consideration to some of the merit source applications and review them, we are truly going down gradually with the numbers of merits sources available of recent while some have for a long time been inactive on the forum, we also have to commend of the present and active merits sources for a well done job, you guyz are doing well in covering up the lapses while ensuring evenly distribution of merits.

[logfiles]

Wondering if someone guessed who this new merit source is.
Also, I think the forum lost another heavyweight merit source.
Theymos needs to replace him as well, I am afraid.

I don't know if there is any recent update data about merit distribution among members, especially from the merit sources, but I think it's about time Theymos did something and added new merit sources

With a few notable members leaving the forum or becoming inactive. There is definitely a void that needs to be filled up.

[Coyster]

With a few notable members leaving the forum or becoming inactive. There is definitely a void that needs to be filled up.

Its been quite a long time since Theymos added new MS's, but within that time source merits have decreased quite a lot, some MS's became somewhat inactive, and some others completely left the forum. I think right now Theymos would really be considering adding new MS's, it has been a long time coming, but this period seems like the perfect time; there is no dearth of MS applications, there are so many reputable members waiting in the pipeline, and this makes Theymos' job pretty easy, he just has to pick a few out of those waiting.

[KingsDen]

With a few notable members leaving the forum or becoming inactive. There is definitely a void that needs to be filled up.

Its been quite a long time since Theymos added new MS's, but within that time source merits have decreased quite a lot, some MS's became somewhat inactive, and some others completely left the forum. I think right now Theymos would really be considering adding new MS's, it has been a long time coming, but this period seems like the perfect time; there is no dearth of MS applications, there are so many reputable members waiting in the pipeline, and this makes Theymos' job pretty easy, he just has to pick a few out of those waiting.

I was just wondering why theymos has been somewhat reluctant to add more merit sources. I couldn't actually get resounding answer, but I believe that theymos doesn't want merit to lose it value. He does so  by practically keeping it as scarce as possible. Adding more merit sources will make merit more abundant and who knows it could lose its value. But knowing that most merit source do not distribute merits and some are no longer active, it is nice to introduce few more hands and watch, if the result is counter productive, he can still reduce the number of merit sources thereafter.

Wondering if someone guessed who this new merit source is.
Also, I think the forum lost another heavyweight merit source.
Theymos needs to replace him as well, I am afraid.

One thing is having a merit source, another is having someone as generous as Leo in merit distribution. In terms of capacity, there is supposed to be two people replacing Leo