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Whitly
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September 02, 2019, 10:43:44 PM
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Hello Bitcointalk,

A few days ago I was monitoring different "micro real estate investing" platforms. But I was disappointed by how it all works (put "x" money to our website and see how your wealth growing in numbers). I mean lack of info about tenants that aren't paying on time, houses that currently not having tenants and etc. Plus weird terms of how to wd money if, I will decide to wd them the next day after my "investment".

I pretty sure, that there were projects that were offered something like that or tried. But I don't see any of them now.

So, my idea in creating a blockchain-based micro real estate investing platform. And try to do that maximally legal and transparent. Most income will be coming from rent or from selling (investing in new construction). So, any user will able to purchase cryptonized assets using bitcoin, altcoins or any of stablecoins. Each month we will purchase them back using 45% of profit and burn (another 45% reinvest and 10% using for other things).  Users will able to use these coins for rent or they even can buy any of house that we currently hold.

So, in perspective users will able to invest small amounts of money and be involved in real estate deals, plus they will able to buy or rent house using any crypto and trading/share/gift cryptonized assets. And as a bonus, free-rent for any crypto-related conference, meetup or summit.

My question is how I can do that maximally legal and transparent? I mean providing ownership, the current number of tenants, how they paying and etc. And also confused about the legal part.

I need your advice/help.
   


p.s. My friends told me that it sounds like f*cking Ponzi and I'm just "noone" to do something like that.
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September 03, 2019, 12:52:01 AM
 #2

My question is how I can do that maximally legal and transparent? I mean providing ownership, the current number of tenants, how they paying and etc.

That's the easy part - create some tiny database tables and propagate changes through a blockchain.

One table can list the crypto signature and seat transfer ledger.  Each seat constitutes a share of profits.
Then you'd need to track changes to the property and all the attributes of that property.

Legally would depend on where you will operate.  You'll need to incorporate for sure.

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September 03, 2019, 09:33:27 AM
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So, my idea in creating a blockchain-based micro real estate investing platform. And try to do that maximally legal and transparent. Most income will be coming from rent or from selling (investing in new construction). So, any user will able to purchase cryptonized assets using bitcoin, altcoins or any of stablecoins. Each month we will purchase them back using 45% of profit and burn (another 45% reinvest and 10% using for other things).  Users will able to use these coins for rent or they even can buy any of house that we currently hold.

So, in perspective users will able to invest small amounts of money and be involved in real estate deals, plus they will able to buy or rent house using any crypto and trading/share/gift cryptonized assets. And as a bonus, free-rent for any crypto-related conference, meetup or summit.

My question is how I can do that maximally legal and transparent? I mean providing ownership, the current number of tenants, how they paying and etc. And also confused about the legal part.

steer clear of USA investors. this scheme would definitely constitute a security offering, and SEC reporting requirements are extremely onerous. to avoid registration, you'll want to restrict USA investors by IP address and probably KYC as well.

i like the idea and i think all sorts of assets will be tokenized like this in the future. re transparency, you'll need to incorporate and call regular shareholder meetings/provide earnings reports. member-viewable deeds/leases/contracts and public property listings could allow investors to verify their equity holdings.

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September 03, 2019, 10:20:53 AM
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I need your advice/help.

No offense, but in your case, I recommend that you search for a lawyer who has experience in international business law, this lawyer will be able to give you good advice and will be able to tell you step by step how you should proceed. I see your idea is good, but in legal terms you really need advice from a lawyer who has experience in international business law.

p.s. My friends told me that it sounds like f*cking Ponzi and I'm just "noone" to do something like that.

and these friends of yours have experience in international business law?
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September 03, 2019, 06:55:09 PM
 #5

p.s. My friends told me that it sounds like f*cking Ponzi and I'm just "noone" to do something like that.
Yea it's true that sound is like ponzi scheme. What we have seen previously that kind of scheme became scam eventually. But I am not telling that you are going to scam or this is ponzi scheme. If your intention is good then most likely you would create this kind of project successful. But obviously you need to gain trust from worldwide crypto users. At first you should take permission from your local government since it financial project. I am not sure if there is any requirement from any international organisations. And obviously you need prove yourself and your project trustworthy. Perhaps your local lawyer would help you what documents required for transparency.

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September 03, 2019, 09:00:32 PM
 #6

I've seen this kinds of investments before and it would be really tough for a real investor to be attracted on something where you just put your money online and not see the actual business happening. Mostly this how HYIP websites work where they try to convince you that they have a legit operation and will pay you based on the investment you have.  In my opinion these kinds of investment are better to be done physically and not online so I would rather start on having physical investors first before going online with my operations.

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September 03, 2019, 09:04:50 PM
Last edit: September 03, 2019, 09:20:24 PM by Whitly
 #7

p.s. My friends told me that it sounds like f*cking Ponzi and I'm just "noone" to do something like that.
Yea it's true that sound is like ponzi scheme. What we have seen previously that kind of scheme became scam eventually. But I am not telling that you are going to scam or this is ponzi scheme. If your intention is good then most likely you would create this kind of project successful. But obviously you need to gain trust from worldwide crypto users. At first you should take permission from your local government since it financial project. I am not sure if there is any requirement from any international organisations. And obviously you need prove yourself and your project trustworthy. Perhaps your local lawyer would help you what documents required for transparency.

&

I've seen this kinds of investments before and it would be really tough for a real investor to be attracted on something where you just put your money online and not see the actual business happening. Mostly this how HYIP websites work where they try to convince you that they have a legit operation and will pay you based on the investment you have.  In my opinion these kinds of investment are better to be done physically and not online so I would rather start on having physical investors first before going online with my operations.

I fully agree with you and that's why "Shared ownership" the best way to show reliability and transparency. As an owner, I'll able to split "house" at 1000 shares (0.1% each) and KYC will help me make every participate be the legal owner of 0.1% - 10% shares. So, each of them can verify that they really own part of a house and there really their names, not just my promises.

The problem that not every country let me do that online, even if I'll have all the documents. Some countries will ask participants to fly and sign some papers in real life even for 0.1% part.

Another problem, since I want to give everyone freedom with so-called tokenized-shares (shitcoins coins), I mean trade, gift them to friends and etc. I'll need some magician-lawyer that will make possible to cancel somehow their ownership, right after funds will be moved to another address.

Explaining:

For example, you invested/purchased 0.1% of the house, you got tokens on your crypto address that connected with your KYC, so your name now on documents that prove your shared ownership and you got for example 100 coins that approximate to 0.1% in one current house, but one day you decided to cash out and sell your coins on an exchange and out. After transferring to address, that not connected with any of KYC, your legal ownership will be canceled. So, now 99.9% of this house owned users and 0.1% by me legally  (the part that you transferred to exchanger).
Then user that purchased 100 tokens from you can prove ownership of funds, provide KYC and take that part of 0.1% that currently owned by me.
Or continue holding without providing KYC and legally not owning any part of the house, but still receiving dividends from owning coins.
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September 03, 2019, 10:33:35 PM
 #8

Then user that purchased 100 tokens from you can prove ownership of funds, provide KYC and take that part of 0.1% that currently owned by me.

Centralization detected.  Who determines the KYC is valid?

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September 04, 2019, 07:28:34 PM
 #9

I've seen this kinds of investments before and it would be really tough for a real investor to be attracted on something where you just put your money online and not see the actual business happening. Mostly this how HYIP websites work where they try to convince you that they have a legit operation and will pay you based on the investment you have.  In my opinion these kinds of investment are better to be done physically and not online so I would rather start on having physical investors first before going online with my operations.

I fully agree with you and that's why "Shared ownership" the best way to show reliability and transparency. As an owner, I'll able to split "house" at 1000 shares (0.1% each) and KYC will help me make every participate be the legal owner of 0.1% - 10% shares. So, each of them can verify that they really own part of a house and there really their names, not just my promises.

The problem that not every country let me do that online, even if I'll have all the documents. Some countries will ask participants to fly and sign some papers in real life even for 0.1% part.

Like I said it won't really work no matter how you spin the words on your real estate investment have. HYIPs does the same thing claiming that they'll be "part owners" of the business one way or another but the thing is there is really no legit business going on but all sweet words and unbelievable return rates. An online real-estate investment isn't even a good idea when we start talking about the local laws involved on each users in different countries have. A co-ownership cannot simply happen with just an online buy in with a cryptocurrency there are legal papers involved that should be notarized by both parties so if you haven't think about that then think about the headache it will bring just to make this possible if it even is one.

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September 04, 2019, 08:31:46 PM
 #10

Then user that purchased 100 tokens from you can prove ownership of funds, provide KYC and take that part of 0.1% that currently owned by me.

Centralization detected.  Who determines the KYC is valid?

Wish, that I could make it somehow decentralized, but I have no idea how to make/integrate the voting process and not sure how useful it will.

From the other side, most of the properties will be owned legally 100% by early-stage investors. Maximum 1000 people per property (Shared Ownership), with the limit to own max 5-10% per "house" (legally) at the first stage.
So, till they hold, they own % of different houses legally, but if they will decide to move funds to another address (even if this address will their alt address), their legal parts will be moved to me and everyone else that currently having coins, but not havening legal shares can claim it by providing documents.

Even at early-stage, people can choose two ways:
1) Where they provide all documents and getting coins (tokenized shares) and physically/legally owning % of properties.
2) no-KYC way, where they own coins (tokenized shares), but without physically/legally owning % of properties. But with the ability to claim legal % of properties, by providing all needed documents in the future.



I've seen this kinds of investments before and it would be really tough for a real investor to be attracted on something where you just put your money online and not see the actual business happening. Mostly this how HYIP websites work where they try to convince you that they have a legit operation and will pay you based on the investment you have.  In my opinion these kinds of investment are better to be done physically and not online so I would rather start on having physical investors first before going online with my operations.

I fully agree with you and that's why "Shared ownership" the best way to show reliability and transparency. As an owner, I'll able to split "house" at 1000 shares (0.1% each) and KYC will help me make every participate be the legal owner of 0.1% - 10% shares. So, each of them can verify that they really own part of a house and there really their names, not just my promises.

The problem that not every country let me do that online, even if I'll have all the documents. Some countries will ask participants to fly and sign some papers in real life even for 0.1% part.

Like I said it won't really work no matter how you spin the words on your real estate investment have. HYIPs does the same thing claiming that they'll be "part owners" of the business one way or another but the thing is there is really no legit business going on but all sweet words and unbelievable return rates. An online real-estate investment isn't even a good idea when we start talking about the local laws involved on each users in different countries have. A co-ownership cannot simply happen with just an online buy in with a cryptocurrency there are legal papers involved that should be notarized by both parties so if you haven't think about that then think about the headache it will bring just to make this possible if it even is one.


Deed of gift, let me do that without personal presence of the second party. And as I said earlier there will be 2 ways, for people that want to be 100% sure, that there really any properties and want to own legal/physical parts, and another way for people with no-KYC, they able to buy coins, send, trade but legally they will own nothing, and will just get average % from total earnings.

Yes, here still many "if" and "but", that's why I created this post to get advices how to make it maximally legal and transparent.


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September 05, 2019, 06:25:16 PM
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Like I said it won't really work no matter how you spin the words on your real estate investment have. HYIPs does the same thing claiming that they'll be "part owners" of the business one way or another but the thing is there is really no legit business going on but all sweet words and unbelievable return rates. An online real-estate investment isn't even a good idea when we start talking about the local laws involved on each users in different countries have. A co-ownership cannot simply happen with just an online buy in with a cryptocurrency there are legal papers involved that should be notarized by both parties so if you haven't think about that then think about the headache it will bring just to make this possible if it even is one.


Deed of gift, let me do that without personal presence of the second party. And as I said earlier there will be 2 ways, for people that want to be 100% sure, that there really any properties and want to own legal/physical parts, and another way for people with no-KYC, they able to buy coins, send, trade but legally they will own nothing, and will just get average % from total earnings.

Yes, here still many "if" and "but", that's why I created this post to get advices how to make it maximally legal and transparent.


Nope, deed of gift doesn't work that way. A deed of gift legal document acts like a donation/charity to the other party without any kind of compensation to the user. On this scenario you are offering the user to be part owners of a immovable property in exchange of cryptocurrency which really voids any legal possibility of them receiving a deed of gift document. Our legal system is built to have this kinds of loopholes to be stopped and I don't think any kind or forms of donation contracts can work in your way.

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September 05, 2019, 08:03:59 PM
 #12

Hello Bitcointalk,

A few days ago I was monitoring different "micro real estate investing" platforms. But I was disappointed by how it all works (put "x" money to our website and see how your wealth growing in numbers). I mean lack of info about tenants that aren't paying on time, houses that currently not having tenants and etc. Plus weird terms of how to wd money if, I will decide to wd them the next day after my "investment".

I pretty sure, that there were projects that were offered something like that or tried. But I don't see any of them now.

So, my idea in creating a blockchain-based micro real estate investing platform. And try to do that maximally legal and transparent. Most income will be coming from rent or from selling (investing in new construction). So, any user will able to purchase cryptonized assets using bitcoin, altcoins or any of stablecoins. Each month we will purchase them back using 45% of profit and burn (another 45% reinvest and 10% using for other things).  Users will able to use these coins for rent or they even can buy any of house that we currently hold.

So, in perspective users will able to invest small amounts of money and be involved in real estate deals, plus they will able to buy or rent house using any crypto and trading/share/gift cryptonized assets. And as a bonus, free-rent for any crypto-related conference, meetup or summit.

My question is how I can do that maximally legal and transparent? I mean providing ownership, the current number of tenants, how they paying and etc. And also confused about the legal part.

I need your advice/help.
   


p.s. My friends told me that it sounds like f*cking Ponzi and I'm just "noone" to do something like that.


Well, the idea is very interesting, but you must bear in mind that when you carry out projects of this nature you will need support in legal knowledge and especially in the valuations of real estate and the lease fee.

It is necessary that you have the Current Value of each Property and Appraisals of the Lease Canon together with all the machines and equipment that are available, I recommend it because I am also an Expert Appraiser, that way you can establish a price and the network used under the technology Blockchain will have transparency for customers to use the platform or project you will develop.

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September 05, 2019, 08:04:38 PM
Last edit: September 05, 2019, 08:18:26 PM by Whitly
 #13

Well, the idea is very interesting, but you must bear in mind that when you carry out projects of this nature you will need support in legal knowledge and especially in the valuations of real estate and the lease fee.

It is necessary that you have the Current Value of each Property and Appraisals of the Lease Canon together with all the machines and equipment that are available, I recommend it because I am also an Expert Appraiser, that way you can establish a price and the network used under the technology Blockchain will have transparency for customers to use the platform or project you will develop.

Thank you for your advice, but more priority now create so-called project's skeleton, ways how to calculate valuations of real estate and the lease fee will be decided later.


Nope, deed of gift doesn't work that way. A deed of gift legal document acts like a donation/charity to the other party without any kind of compensation to the user. On this scenario you are offering the user to be part owners of a immovable property in exchange of cryptocurrency which really voids any legal possibility of them receiving a deed of gift document. Our legal system is built to have this kinds of loopholes to be stopped and I don't think any kind or forms of donation contracts can work in your way.

Okay, what if make this:

Users will basically pay for service (managing their properties) and from the amount that they will pay for "service"  will depend, what share they will get in a deed of gift document.

So, it still like a donation/charity, but you can't go to step 2 without step 1, where you paying for service.

what do you think about it?
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September 09, 2019, 02:35:39 PM
 #14

~snip~

Okay, what if make this:

Users will basically pay for service (managing their properties) and from the amount that they will pay for "service"  will depend, what share they will get in a deed of gift document.

So, it still like a donation/charity, but you can't go to step 2 without step 1, where you paying for service.

what do you think about it?


If the user requires to oay something even indirectly or not directly related towards on buying the property it still voids the matter being a donation. The client still needs to pay something in order to get that piece of ownership. There is really no donation happening at all. If you decide to continue this method and I hope you don't you would just be breaking a lot of laws and your clients would also be part of it. Just don't bury them into this kind of mess.

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September 10, 2019, 08:25:12 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2019, 09:42:54 AM by Whitly
 #15


If the user requires to oay something even indirectly or not directly related towards on buying the property it still voids the matter being a donation. The client still needs to pay something in order to get that piece of ownership. There is really no donation happening at all. If you decide to continue this method and I hope you don't you would just be breaking a lot of laws and your clients would also be part of it. Just don't bury them into this kind of mess.

Okay, but if go this way:

Users will buy tokenized assets of  "company", not shares of properties. (from Juridical person)
Then users can choose: they want to trade and transfer or staking.
In staking mode their tokenized assets will be frozen for 30 days, the system will choose "free" shares of properties and will give it by Gift Deed according to staking amount. (from Natural person).

So, basically they will "invest" in Juridical person, but getting properties from Natural person.

And since donor can stipulate conditions in a Gift Deed, conditions can be for example - "staking" and if they will decide to stop staking, it will just give me the ability to revoke Gift Deed.
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