Germany banned by BitPay?

[OmegaStarScream]

A few weeks ago, BitPay banned a few countries: https://support.bitpay.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000123366-Why-can-t-I-use-BitPay-s-services-in-my-country-

I'm aware that in all the countries on that list it's illegal to exchange/hold or pay using bitcoin, except for Germany. Does anyone know what laws are preventing BitPay from offering their services there as I haven't seen exchanges, or other crypto related services banning them?

[erikalui]

Indonesia also is banned as per Bitpay when it has declared that bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies are recognized.

Indonesia has introduced new legislation that recognizes Bitcoin (BTC) as a trading commodity, Asia-oriented news outlet KrASIA reported on Feb. 15.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/indonesia-new-legislation-recognizes-crypto-as-trading-commodity

It may just be because these countries refuse to accept bitpay else the list would include countries like India, Pakistan and so on where the currency is not accepted. It would be a huge list so it has nothing to do with legality or it being illegal.

[AdolfinWolf]

Found this-- https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2019/08/bitpay-suspends-operations-in-germany-over-regulatory-concerns/

And

“Germany has publicly stated that they want crypto companies to apply for a license starting in 2020. We have paused operations in Germany while we evaluate the need for German licenses.”

So it's probably only temporary? (Unless ofcourse they get denied a license.) Seems like a weird thing to do really, i mean why stop operating if they don't require any sort of license yet, but IANAL.

[1miau]

Found this-- https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2019/08/bitpay-suspends-operations-in-germany-over-regulatory-concerns/

And

“Germany has publicly stated that they want crypto companies to apply for a license starting in 2020. We have paused operations in Germany while we evaluate the need for German licenses.”

Exactly, next year (2020) all crypto-to-fiat services (like exchanges or payment services etc.) will need to get an official license from BaFin (German SEC) to operate in a legal way. If they have a license, it's fine and they can operate. But the main question is if all crypto services will apply for a license? I don't know if there are any limits that you don't need a license if the company isn't big and doesn't handle much money.

Germany is often taking the special way, process is slow and generally that's not very positive. It's understandable that BitPay doesn't want trouble due to unclear regulation and shut down their service in Germany until things are clear. The German parliament will decide soon^TM how exactly such a license will look like...

So it's probably only temporary? (Unless ofcourse they get denied a license.) Seems like a weird thing to do really, i mean why stop operating if they don't require any sort of license yet, but IANAL.

I hope so. If BitPay applies for a license they should be allowed to get back into business.  


So actually it's not banned in Germany, they "only" need a license from BaFin and BitPay shut down in advance because the requirements in 2020 are not clear yet.

[malevolent]

Did they also make it illegal to operate a crypto-to-fiat currency service before the new rules are in place? I don't get why else BitPay would cut Germany off so early.

[N0sferatu]

Did they also make it illegal to operate a crypto-to-fiat currency service before the new rules are in place?

No, it is legal until 2020.

I don't get why else BitPay would cut Germany off so early.

Well there are only 3 months left in 2019 and the chances of getting a license so fast in Germany is zero (probably).

That being said, i'm pretty sure the volume of handled transactions through BitPay in Germany is low. We're not even close to a widespread adoption here unfortunately.

[1Referee]

So actually it's not banned in Germany, they "only" need a license from BaFin and BitPay shut down in advance because the requirements in 2020 are not clear yet.

If Germany is a profitable country for them, they will obtain that license, but BitPay might just as well choose to not invest time and money in it if there isn't much to gain. In that case other payment gateways will take over its spot and provide a fairer service to merchants without the disgusting anti Bitcoin politics. Perhaps it's going to boost BTCPay server, who knows. 

Coingate for example is still active in Germany. It's going to be interesting to see what their course of action is going to be. I hope they will treat this as an opportunity to fill BitPay's gap if they exit entirely.

[1miau]

So actually it's not banned in Germany, they "only" need a license from BaFin and BitPay shut down in advance because the requirements in 2020 are not clear yet.

If Germany is a profitable country for them, they will obtain that license, but BitPay might just as well choose to not invest time and money in it if there isn't much to gain. In that case other payment gateways will take over its spot and provide a fairer service to merchants without the disgusting anti Bitcoin politics. Perhaps it's going to boost BTCPay server, who knows.  

Coingate for example is still active in Germany. It's going to be interesting to see what their course of action is going to be. I hope they will treat this as an opportunity to fill BitPay's gap if they exit entirely.

Yeah, that's also the newspaper's guess: if Germany was profitable for them they would have offered their service until 12/2019 instead of shutting down immediately.  
I hope Germany will be attractive for other services but here are some strange people sometimes.

Same goes for Bitcoin ATMs in Germany. Compared to Switzerland (70 ATMs according to coinatmradar) and Austria (251 ATMs according to coinatmradar) Germany is far behind (30 ATMs according to coinatmradar) while the population is much higher in Germany (80M) than in Austria (9M) or Switzerland (8.5M).  

It's not only because the regulations are unclear, it's also because greedy idiots are playing their games. We have a new wannabe crybaby company in Germany and they are trying to shut down competitors Bitcoin ATMs by sending their lawyers to the regulators (BaFin) to shut them down and place their own ones in the future instead. They are not only using mafia style to get an advantage against competitors they are also straight lying and claiming that all ATMs without KYC are illegal (even amounts of a few € without KYC would be illegal according to them (which is not, it's legal to have crypto ATMs without KYC at least for defined limits)). So in fact, they are not only pushing their own agenda with shady strategies, they are also shutting down all ATMs without KYC and trying to place their ones with KYC even for low amounts.  

More about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/cw998o/today_i_learnt_that_german_startup_company_spot9s/

They are also planning to found a crypto bank in Germany (they haven't any clue about Bitcoin at all). Such people are only obstructive for BTC adoption and need a boycott by the community...

[malevolent]

It's not only because the regulations are unclear, it's also because greedy idiots are playing their games. We have a new wannabe crybaby company in Germany and they are trying to shut down competitors Bitcoin ATMs by sending their lawyers to the regulators (BaFin) to shut them down and place their own ones in the future instead.

Are the new regulations coming in 2020 going to affect the operation of Bitcoin ATMs in Germany?

You guys might want to contact all cryptocurrency-related or friendly news/blogs channels, and let the story out to ostracize such nasty people. Are they bankrolling the ATMs and the bank on their own, or do they have investors?

[LeGaulois]

Exactly, next year (2020) all crypto-to-fiat services (like exchanges or payment services etc.) will need to get an official license from BaFin (German SEC) to operate in a legal way.

Are you 100% sure? Because if you check out the Press board with the news about Burger King accepting Bitcoin in Germany, they don't accept bitcoins directly but the delivery company (lieferando.de) accepts Bitcoin, and it is a German company (a subsidiary of another German entity actualyl) yourdelivery.gmbh

https://www.lieferando.de/kundenservice-konsument-betreff-bezahlen?fid=831#cs_item_831

[OmegaStarScream]

I was just going to post regarding the Burger king delivery service... I've tried to make an order and it does use BitPay which make absolutely no sense at all.

I don't think that the ban is real for Germany ...I've tried to access BitPay.com using a Moroccan IP address (banned country) and this message was being returned from Cloudflare:



And then I changed it to German I.P, and I managed to access the site perfectly fine. Any thoughts?

[1miau]

It's not only because the regulations are unclear, it's also because greedy idiots are playing their games. We have a new wannabe crybaby company in Germany and they are trying to shut down competitors Bitcoin ATMs by sending their lawyers to the regulators (BaFin) to shut them down and place their own ones in the future instead.

Are the new regulations coming in 2020 going to affect the operation of Bitcoin ATMs in Germany?

Yes, everyone who distributes crypto against Fiat / Fiat against crypto will need a license from BaFin. But I'm not a lawyer if there are some exceptions.

You guys might want to contact all cryptocurrency-related or friendly news/blogs channels, and let the story out to ostracize such nasty people. Are they bankrolling the ATMs and the bank on their own, or do they have investors?

Spot9 (the new company) hasn't even a working product right now. They want to launch their zero-tolerance KYC-ATMs somewhere in the future but are already "cleaning" the market for their entrance. 
They are planning to fund their operations via shitcoin offering for their ecosystem (a Bitcoin bank and Bitcoin ATMs):


https://www.spot9.com/en/

The media released some articles about it like here but I guess Spot9 will use a part of their fundraising to place own articles supporting Spot9's point of view. The article is even giving a statement that existing ATMs are legal right now:

While KYC still isn’t a legal requirement on crypto ATMs, many companies that have crypto ATMs with KYC are pushing to make this mandatory – such as Spot9.

I think Spot9 is knowing very well that the customers will prefer ATMs without KYC and their product has no chance in a free market. So they are trying that way to compete by removing all competitors which they do not want...

But I think it's a bit off-topic here, I will open a new thread some time later. It will take some time until their shitcoin offering goes live. And if we have a look how successful such shitcoin offerings are right now, they will have a bigger problem than removing competitors: getting their own product up and running...   

I was just going to post regarding the Burger king delivery service... I've tried to make an order and it does use BitPay which make absolutely no sense at all.

I don't think that the ban is real for Germany ...I've tried to access BitPay.com using a Moroccan IP address (banned country) and this message was being returned from Cloudflare:



And then I changed it to German I.P, and I managed to access the site perfectly fine. Any thoughts?

Exactly, next year (2020) all crypto-to-fiat services (like exchanges or payment services etc.) will need to get an official license from BaFin (German SEC) to operate in a legal way.

Are you 100% sure? Because if you check out the Press board with the news about Burger King accepting Bitcoin in Germany, they don't accept bitcoins directly but the delivery company (lieferando.de) accepts Bitcoin, and it is a German company (a subsidiary of another German entity actualyl) yourdelivery.gmbh

https://www.lieferando.de/kundenservice-konsument-betreff-bezahlen?fid=831#cs_item_831

Right now it's still legal without license, it's only mandatory from next year on (2020). BitPay shut down in advance, theoretically their operations would be legal until 12/2019 without license.