The solution to money (the next stage in Bitcoin evolution)

[andrewbb]

Once upon a time, some guy had an orange and you wanted it.  So you offered to trade a banana for his orange.  But your banana was way back at your hut.  So you picked up a seashell or something and handed it to him in exchange for his orange.  You promised to go get your banana and deliver it later.  That is the origin of money.  The seashell was a symbol that represented a contract to deliver a banana.

Alternatively, both people could have yelled out to the surrounding village that you owed that person a banana.  Then you didn't need the seashell.  Everyone knew you owed that person a banana.  Then you go back to your hut the next day and get the banana.  Then you yell out to the village that you paid back the banana.  Let's hope that banana did not go bad overnight.


Similarly, Promise Language is a standard way to yell to the global village who owes what.  If placed into a peer-to-peer database, all promises would be tracked.  Open promises and delivered promises.  I was thinking today how to design that database:

Promise table

Type of entry (Initiating promise, promise, notification)
Id (GUID for that promise or a GUID corresponding to the person)
Description (describes what was promised)
TimeStamp

So.. it would work like this:

[transaction]
  [promise]
    1 banana
  [endpromise]
  [promise]
    1 orange
  [endpromise]
[endtransaction]

One entry for the Initiating Promise:  my Id, his Id, "1 banana", 12/21/2003 12:15:34
One entry for the Promise:  his Id, my Id, "1 orange", 12/21/2003 12:15:45
One entry for the Delivery: his Id, my Id, "1 orange", 12/21/2003 12:15:48
One entry for the final Delivery: my Id, his Id, "1 banana", 12/22/2003 8:23:32

That's it.


Now.  That shows you made good on your promise.  That's your rep.  Now you can go anywhere in the world with the Promise App that shows your history of promises.

It's free.  No transaction fees.  Works with any currency on earth.

[DeathAndTaxes]

It already exists.  It is called ripple.  The problem is what happens when the promise isn't kept.

As far as no transaction fees that is a pipe dream.  Who maintains this massive global ledger (which if popular would span billions of new transactions a year)?  Who pays the cost of it?  Any system is going to have a cost.  A fair system ensures the cost to user isn't marginally higher than the cost to the provider.  An unfair system (i.e. credit cards) uses barriers to entry, monopolies, and price fixing to coerce a marginal cost to users which is significantly higher than the marginal cost to providers. 

[andrewbb]

Ripple is entirely different.  Ripple relies on Trust in a single entity.

Promise Language is simply a transaction record in multiple places.  No single trust point to fail.



Who pays for the Blockchain after all the Bitcoin is mined?

Who pays for the Torrent downloads?


Please take some time to reconsider.  It solves monetary science and money itself.

[NotLambchop]

Not sure I understand, but have you invented ... barter?

1. I want a banana<==thing I want to buy
2. I have a Volvo<==valuable thing I wish to exchange for banana
3. I find a guy who wants to sell his banana, but he doesn't need a Volvo <==wat do?

Do I need to first find a guy who needs a Volvo?  How is value disparity handled (I want just one banana, I feel the Volvo is worth at least 5 bananas)?

I know i'm missing something.

[andrewbb]

I call that Wealth Translation.

You'd have to find a Wealth Translator who is willing to accept the Volvo and pay the banana seller in the currency of his choice.

A more likely scenario:

You have a debit card with Bitcoins on it.  It has a Visa symbol on it.  You buy a banana at the grocery store.  Visa does the wealth translation.  Visa takes some Bitcoins and gives the grocer USD.  The Wealth Translation might have a small fee attached (if not already covered by the Visa fee that the grocer pays).

[NotLambchop]

1. So you see your idea as something piggybacked onto other currencies?  Like Visa is to the dollar?

2. There's also the problem with buying a banana for lunch:  With ordinary currencies, i have a stash of coins, universally accepted, good for almost any product i wish to buy -- from a banana to a hooker.  Would i need to find a "wealth translator" interested in something I own (like the Volvo) each time I want a banana?
What would I do with the "change" (the extra 4 bananas that that we agreed the Volvo is worth)?

[ning]

...

It's free.  No transaction fees.  Works with any currency on earth.

There should be a cost (albeit low, explicit or implicit) for each transaction.

[cbeast]

Reminds me of the Ricky Gervais movie "The Invention of Lying."

[andrewbb]

1. So you see your idea as something piggybacked onto other currencies?  Like Visa is to the dollar?

No.  It is a description of currency exchanges (and any other value).  It is a standard to communicate value among people who don't understand the same language (computer people, business people, financial-types, legal-types, etc.  Also disparate language amongst countries.)

It standardizes the communication of any monetary transaction all the way to the 1s and 0s in a computer.

2. There's also the problem with buying a banana for lunch:  With ordinary currencies, i have a stash of coins, universally accepted, good for almost any product i wish to buy -- from a banana to a hooker.  Would i need to find a "wealth translator" interested in something I own (like the Volvo) each time I want a banana?
What would I do with the "change" (the extra 4 bananas that that we agreed the Volvo is worth)?

Of course not.  Currencies remain.

Initiating promise:  1 lunch
Promise:               $5
Delivery:              1 lunch
Delivery:               $5
Transaction complete.

[franky1]

Once upon a time, some guy had an orange and you wanted it.  So you offered to trade a banana for his orange.  But your banana was way back at your hut.  So you picked up a seashell or something and handed it to him in exchange for his orange.  You promised to go get your banana and deliver it later.  That is the origin of money.  The seashell was a symbol that represented a contract to deliver a banana.

that is not the origins of money... but nice try though

[andrewbb]

Once upon a time, some guy had an orange and you wanted it.  So you offered to trade a banana for his orange.  But your banana was way back at your hut.  So you picked up a seashell or something and handed it to him in exchange for his orange.  You promised to go get your banana and deliver it later.  That is the origin of money.  The seashell was a symbol that represented a contract to deliver a banana.

that is not the origins of money... but nice try though

So what is franky's theory on the origin of money?

[remotemass]

For ID of any physical object you could use Dynamic Identity Numeric Representation (DINR).
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144481.0

[andrewbb]

For ID of any physical object you could use Dynamic Identity Numeric Representation (DINR).
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144481.0

That seems possible.  I was thinking a GUID (Globally Unique Identifier) as it is a random number that anyone can create for themselves.  It can be a permanent ID #, or a throw-away one for each transaction.


The DINR looks interesting.  What is its source data?

[remotemass]

I explain Earth Cubic Spacetimestamp in this blog post: https://earth-cubic-spacetimestamp.blogspot.com
It seems very practical to use just 22 digits, as it were a telephone number, to tell a location.
I think it would be great for skype, for instance. You could just type a ECS and ask skype to call all skype users that were within 1.25 Km of that ECS location, and it would. We could have the telephone networks have different international prefixes for ECS calls.
Entering one international prefix followed by the 22 digits of an ECS location would for instance call mobile, landline and online skype users within 10 KM of that ECS. Another telephone prefix could be for instance to call 25 just mobile numbers of fireman within 10Km of range of the following ECS to enter a conference call. You can see the potential. The prefix would be restricting the call, that could be a conference call to specific parameters: Like range, type of device, affiliation of the user, number of users to call, minimum reputation of the users, etc. These prefixes would be international and would work for all telephone and skype users that could be reached.
I think this would be great. I wish I was given more voice to explain the potential of my idea to harness the power of telephone networks, namely with things like skype users and so.  

Anyway, Dynamic Identity Numeric Representation, is also a concept I developed. For any object that you can track in space and time, on Earth, you would be keeping track of the ECS of each, each second. Then you would have a sequence of IDs according to how frequent were each algarism in each position of that registering.

Say, for object A you start keep record of ECS of it each second and you get:

3023827362537485736524
3647593037862830930239
2782987320398983798078
8789298628254826735277
....
....

So "A" DINR of would be [("1",%),("2",%),("3",%),("4",%),("5",%),("6",%),("7",%),("8",%),("9",%),("0",%)] for each of the 22 digits.

You would then simply order the different IDs with a simple bijection mapping.

I should write a whitepaper explaining it. I have to find some time for that...

[andrewbb]

As long as the number is unique and cannot be duplicated it would work.

[andrewbb]

For commerce and transactions to occur, it requires:
1. communication
2. trust
3. performance
4. accountability

Performance is made through a transfer of wealth:
- gold
- property
- real estate
- promise to work
- prior work
- etc.

Trust might be built by:
- reputation
- performance bond
- cosigner
- etc.

Accountability is the interrelation of trust and performance over time. Reputation. The historical results of previous interactions.


What is trade/commerce?
- An offer consisting of wealth transfer (gold, time, property, etc.)
- Trust between parties (reputation, performance bond, cosigner, etc.)

Trust is a binary decision. It can be quantified and tracked.

Performance is an analog result (partial performance). It can be quantified and tracked.

Trust + Performance = Transaction

Communication * (Trust + Performance) = Accountability


If a computer system tracked the above, what do we need money for?