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Author Topic: FATF travel rule and privacy coins  (Read 140 times)
Bttzed03
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September 22, 2019, 07:40:43 AM
Merited by DarkStar_ (4), tk808 (2), JayJuanGee (1)
 #1

News broke out that OKEX Korea will be delisting privacy coins Monero (XMR), Dash (DASH), Zcash (ZEC), Super bitcoin (SBTC), Horizen (ZEN) as they try to comply with the recently published FATF Guidelines on cryptocurrencies specifically the Travel Rule.

The travel rule requires that cryptocurrency exchanges collect and record customer information related to cryptocurrency transactions. The information includes the transaction originator’s name, account number and location, as well as the recipient’s name and account number.

Since they cannot properly collect data on privacy coin transaction, they would rather delist it.

Upbit, another Korean exchanges, has also announced its plan to delist privacy coins to abide by the FATF guidelines.

According to a notice from Korea exchange Upbit, transaction support for monero (XMR), dash (DASH), zcash (ZEC), haven (XHV), bittube (TUBE), and PIVX (PIVX) will end Monday, Sept. 30.

It has to be noted also that prior to the release of the Travel Rule, some exchanges have already delisted these type of coins.

With these developments, I think we can say that government authorities believe these coins are illegal and they keep on pressuring crypto exchanges to delist them. I'm expecting many more local exchanges to follow suit but bigger/international exchanges will keep them listed until the FATF Travel Rule becomes mandatory.

What's next for these privacy coins?
Will they do changes to comply with the guidelines? or they will just ignore?

 
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September 22, 2019, 10:15:45 AM
Last edit: September 22, 2019, 01:43:24 PM by qwizzie
Merited by DarkStar_ (4), tk808 (1), Bttzed03 (1)
 #2

Dash can comply to the FATF travel rule to the same extend as Bitcoin. Both Bitcoin and Dash have open blockchains, both have public senders and receivers of which data can be gathered and both Bitcoin and Dash have a very low level of optional CoinJoin mixing activity on their network (less then 1%).

Unlike Monero and Zcash and these other privacy-centric coins, Dash is far more focussed on providing instant, secure and low cost transactions and just offers optional privacy as one of its many services.

Dash is also a fork from Bitcoin and should be viewed as having the same legal status as Bitcoin. By delisting Dash you may as well delist Bitcoin. Dash is not a privacy-centric (only focussed on privacy) coin, but is by some exchanges unfairly treated as one.

I think most exchanges regnonice that Dash has the same legal status as Bitcoin and will therefore not delist it.
For those privacy-centric coins that shield both their sender and receiver (so the travel rule can not be complied with at any level), the situation could be different. They could face increased scrutiny from government agencies, who could put pressure on exchanges to delist these.

Here is summary of services and accomplishments that separate Dash from Monero, Zcash and other coins that are fully dedicated to providing only privacy :

* Dash has Instantsend set as default on most of its transactions. This means Dash can be received within a few seconds, protected against double spending and free of charge. This is Dash greatest achievement and a number of exchanges have thrown their support behind it.

* Dash developed ChainLocks which significantly improves it's security against 51% attacks. Dash network is therefore more secure then Bitcoin. Something that Coinbase Pro acknowledge by lowering their deposit conformations for Dash to just 2 confirmations. Any transaction that is ChainLocked is immediately secure against doublespending, can not be reversed and is assured of a place in a block. This means Coinbase Pro could have set number of deposit confirmations to just 1 and still have the same level of transaction security.

* Dash developed a multi-tier network by splitting the blockreward, thereby creating a miner tier and a full nodes (masternodes) tier and is working hard at providing a third tier of end-users & merchants that can directly connect to the  Dash network through a decentralized API (new to the world).

* Dash has a decentralized governance and budget system in place, where masternodes can vote over budget proposals and the network itself can be polled about which direction to go.

* Dash is working towards changing itself into a decentralized platform, on which to run additional decentralized services. Dash plans to offer data-type driven contracts, of which metadata can be stored on the masternodes itself, through Dash Drive.

* Dash offers optional privacy on its transactions by having implemented CoinJoin into their core code (the same CoinJoin that's supported on Bitcoin's network through several Bitcoin wallets). The usage of this optional privacy is very low (less then 1%)

Dash : Discussion Thread ->https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5115659.0
Dash : Price and Trade Discussion -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1233119.0
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September 22, 2019, 10:31:54 AM
 #3

Am I understand correctly? This will happen to all exchanges around the world or this rule applies only on Korean exchanges?
If yes, then it is a time to create decentralized ecosystem for these anonymous cryptocurrencies where people will be able to buy and sell without any regulations Smiley.

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September 22, 2019, 11:14:57 AM
Merited by tk808 (1)
 #4

Am I understand correctly? This will happen to all exchanges around the world or this rule applies only on Korean exchanges?
If yes, then it is a time to create decentralized ecosystem for these anonymous cryptocurrencies where people will be able to buy and sell without any regulations Smiley.

This travel rule and the FATF ruling are recommendations, they are not mandatory. Some exchanges felt pressured to delist. Time will tell if more exchanges feel pressured by it or not. Exchanges have the option these days to integrate TRISA (open source solution) to comply with this travel rule. This should protect Dash to a degree, I'm not sure if it will also protect those coins, that have shielded senders and receivers.

Dash : Discussion Thread ->https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5115659.0
Dash : Price and Trade Discussion -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1233119.0
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September 22, 2019, 02:45:29 PM
Merited by Bttzed03 (1)
 #5

Dash can comply to the FATF travel rule to the same extend as Bitcoin. Both Bitcoin and Dash have open blockchains, both have public senders and receivers of which data can be gathered and both Bitcoin and Dash have a very low level of optional CoinJoin mixing activity on their network (less then 1%).
I believe these exchanges are already familiar with Dash features before they delisted it. Maybe it's not about the number of users using the CoinJoin mixing but the fact that they always have that option to make their Dash transaction private. Can Dash eliminate the CoinJoin feature?

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September 22, 2019, 03:18:38 PM
 #6

Dash can comply to the FATF travel rule to the same extend as Bitcoin. Both Bitcoin and Dash have open blockchains, both have public senders and receivers of which data can be gathered and both Bitcoin and Dash have a very low level of optional CoinJoin mixing activity on their network (less then 1%).

Unlike Monero and Zcash and these other privacy-centric coins, Dash is far more focussed on providing instant, secure and low cost transactions and just offers optional privacy as one of its many services.

Dash is also a fork from Bitcoin and should be viewed as having the same legal status as Bitcoin. By delisting Dash you may as well delist Bitcoin. Dash is not a privacy-centric (only focussed on privacy) coin, but is by some exchanges unfairly treated as one.

I think most exchanges regnonice that Dash has the same legal status as Bitcoin and will therefore not delist it.
For those privacy-centric coins that shield both their sender and receiver (so the travel rule can not be complied with at any level), the situation could be different. They could face increased scrutiny from government agencies, who could put pressure on exchanges to delist these.

Here is summary of services and accomplishments that separate Dash from Monero, Zcash and other coins that are fully dedicated to providing only privacy :

* Dash has Instantsend set as default on most of its transactions. This means Dash can be received within a few seconds, protected against double spending and free of charge. This is Dash greatest achievement and a number of exchanges have thrown their support behind it.

* Dash developed ChainLocks which significantly improves it's security against 51% attacks. Dash network is therefore more secure then Bitcoin. Something that Coinbase Pro acknowledge by lowering their deposit conformations for Dash to just 2 confirmations. Any transaction that is ChainLocked is immediately secure against doublespending, can not be reversed and is assured of a place in a block. This means Coinbase Pro could have set number of deposit confirmations to just 1 and still have the same level of transaction security.

* Dash developed a multi-tier network by splitting the blockreward, thereby creating a miner tier and a full nodes (masternodes) tier and is working hard at providing a third tier of end-users & merchants that can directly connect to the  Dash network through a decentralized API (new to the world).

* Dash has a decentralized governance and budget system in place, where masternodes can vote over budget proposals and the network itself can be polled about which direction to go.

* Dash is working towards changing itself into a decentralized platform, on which to run additional decentralized services. Dash plans to offer data-type driven contracts, of which metadata can be stored on the masternodes itself, through Dash Drive.

* Dash offers optional privacy on its transactions by having implemented CoinJoin into their core code (the same CoinJoin that's supported on Bitcoin's network through several Bitcoin wallets). The usage of this optional privacy is very low (less then 1%)

It is funny that you are trying to make a selling point for Dash not to be delisted when the main selling point of Dash by Dash team was the Privacy tech. Dash was always being compared to Monero and there is a serious bitterness between the two project in that which has the best privacy technology, so comparing it to Bitcoin now is fun

 
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September 22, 2019, 03:22:35 PM
 #7

The travel rule requires that cryptocurrency exchanges collect and record customer information related to cryptocurrency transactions. The information includes the transaction originator’s name, account number and location, as well as the recipient’s name and account number.

Since they cannot properly collect data on privacy coin transaction, they would rather delist it.

Why they cant colect their customers name, account number and location, as well as the recipient’s name and account number?  If they KYCed properly all their customers they have all this informations.

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September 22, 2019, 04:07:21 PM
Last edit: September 22, 2019, 04:44:43 PM by qwizzie
 #8

Dash can comply to the FATF travel rule to the same extend as Bitcoin. Both Bitcoin and Dash have open blockchains, both have public senders and receivers of which data can be gathered and both Bitcoin and Dash have a very low level of optional CoinJoin mixing activity on their network (less then 1%).

Unlike Monero and Zcash and these other privacy-centric coins, Dash is far more focussed on providing instant, secure and low cost transactions and just offers optional privacy as one of its many services.

Dash is also a fork from Bitcoin and should be viewed as having the same legal status as Bitcoin. By delisting Dash you may as well delist Bitcoin. Dash is not a privacy-centric (only focussed on privacy) coin, but is by some exchanges unfairly treated as one.

I think most exchanges regnonice that Dash has the same legal status as Bitcoin and will therefore not delist it.
For those privacy-centric coins that shield both their sender and receiver (so the travel rule can not be complied with at any level), the situation could be different. They could face increased scrutiny from government agencies, who could put pressure on exchanges to delist these.

Here is summary of services and accomplishments that separate Dash from Monero, Zcash and other coins that are fully dedicated to providing only privacy :

* Dash has Instantsend set as default on most of its transactions. This means Dash can be received within a few seconds, protected against double spending and free of charge. This is Dash greatest achievement and a number of exchanges have thrown their support behind it.

* Dash developed ChainLocks which significantly improves it's security against 51% attacks. Dash network is therefore more secure then Bitcoin. Something that Coinbase Pro acknowledge by lowering their deposit conformations for Dash to just 2 confirmations. Any transaction that is ChainLocked is immediately secure against doublespending, can not be reversed and is assured of a place in a block. This means Coinbase Pro could have set number of deposit confirmations to just 1 and still have the same level of transaction security.

* Dash developed a multi-tier network by splitting the blockreward, thereby creating a miner tier and a full nodes (masternodes) tier and is working hard at providing a third tier of end-users & merchants that can directly connect to the  Dash network through a decentralized API (new to the world).

* Dash has a decentralized governance and budget system in place, where masternodes can vote over budget proposals and the network itself can be polled about which direction to go.

* Dash is working towards changing itself into a decentralized platform, on which to run additional decentralized services. Dash plans to offer data-type driven contracts, of which metadata can be stored on the masternodes itself, through Dash Drive.

* Dash offers optional privacy on its transactions by having implemented CoinJoin into their core code (the same CoinJoin that's supported on Bitcoin's network through several Bitcoin wallets). The usage of this optional privacy is very low (less then 1%)

It is funny that you are trying to make a selling point for Dash not to be delisted when the main selling point of Dash by Dash team was the Privacy tech. Dash was always being compared to Monero and there is a serious bitterness between the two project in that which has the best privacy technology, so comparing it to Bitcoin now is fun

Maybe it was the main selling point in Dash early years, when Dash only had privacy and could be considered a privacy-centric coin (which included marketing it as such). As shown above, Dash developed other services and rely on those much more and firmly grown out of that privacy-centric label and niche market. Comparing Dash to Bitcoin is not fun, it's a necessity that is only available to Dash (Monero and Zcash have developed completely different blockchains and a completely different privacy technology).

Time will tell if Dash closeness to Bitcoin code-base and low level use of CoinJoin on both networks, is enough to make exchanges deny any further Dash delisting requests from official organisations. If that will indeed be the case, then Dash has accomplished its mission.

Dash : Discussion Thread ->https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5115659.0
Dash : Price and Trade Discussion -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1233119.0
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September 22, 2019, 04:12:36 PM
Last edit: September 22, 2019, 04:38:49 PM by qwizzie
 #9

 Shocked
Dash can comply to the FATF travel rule to the same extend as Bitcoin. Both Bitcoin and Dash have open blockchains, both have public senders and receivers of which data can be gathered and both Bitcoin and Dash have a very low level of optional CoinJoin mixing activity on their network (less then 1%).
I believe these exchanges are already familiar with Dash features before they delisted it. Maybe it's not about the number of users using the CoinJoin mixing but the fact that they always have that option to make their Dash transaction private. Can Dash eliminate the CoinJoin feature?

It can be eliminated as a feature, but it's Dash believe that optional privacy on its transactions is a necessity, not to be discarded lightly. By the way, Bitcoin users will also always have the option, through using those wallets that support CoinJoin. Not much difference there. Also I think both with Dash and with Bitcoin wallets, it is up to the user to initiate the actual CoinJoin mixing inside that wallet.

Dash : Discussion Thread ->https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5115659.0
Dash : Price and Trade Discussion -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1233119.0
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September 23, 2019, 04:50:42 AM
Last edit: September 23, 2019, 05:46:41 AM by Bttzed03
 #10

~snip

Why they cant colect their customers name, account number and location, as well as the recipient’s name and account number?  If they KYCed properly all their customers they have all this informations.
I think this is more than KYC level information gathering. The FATF guideline is going after the proper recording of transactions that goes in and out of their platform. Privacy coins hinders that.  



Shocked
Dash can comply to the FATF travel rule to the same extend as Bitcoin. Both Bitcoin and Dash have open blockchains, both have public senders and receivers of which data can be gathered and both Bitcoin and Dash have a very low level of optional CoinJoin mixing activity on their network (less then 1%).
I believe these exchanges are already familiar with Dash features before they delisted it. Maybe it's not about the number of users using the CoinJoin mixing but the fact that they always have that option to make their Dash transaction private. Can Dash eliminate the CoinJoin feature?

It can be eliminated as a feature, but it's Dash believe that optional privacy on its transactions is a necessity, not to be discarded lightly. By the way, Bitcoin users will also always have the option, through using those wallets that support CoinJoin. Not much difference there. Also I think both with Dash and with Bitcoin wallets, it is up to the user to initiate the actual CoinJoin mixing inside that wallet.
But there's a big difference there right? Bitcoin users will have to use another service to make their transaction more private. Dash on the other hand doesn't need such service because it was already an inherent feature.  


 
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September 23, 2019, 11:25:30 AM
Last edit: September 23, 2019, 11:38:10 AM by qwizzie
Merited by Bttzed03 (1)
 #11

~snip

Why they cant colect their customers name, account number and location, as well as the recipient’s name and account number?  If they KYCed properly all their customers they have all this informations.
I think this is more than KYC level information gathering. The FATF guideline is going after the proper recording of transactions that goes in and out of their platform. Privacy coins hinders that.  



Shocked
Dash can comply to the FATF travel rule to the same extend as Bitcoin. Both Bitcoin and Dash have open blockchains, both have public senders and receivers of which data can be gathered and both Bitcoin and Dash have a very low level of optional CoinJoin mixing activity on their network (less then 1%).
I believe these exchanges are already familiar with Dash features before they delisted it. Maybe it's not about the number of users using the CoinJoin mixing but the fact that they always have that option to make their Dash transaction private. Can Dash eliminate the CoinJoin feature?

It can be eliminated as a feature, but it's Dash believe that optional privacy on its transactions is a necessity, not to be discarded lightly. By the way, Bitcoin users will also always have the option, through using those wallets that support CoinJoin. Not much difference there. Also I think both with Dash and with Bitcoin wallets, it is up to the user to initiate the actual CoinJoin mixing inside that wallet.
But there's a big difference there right? Bitcoin users will have to use another service to make their transaction more private. Dash on the other hand doesn't need such service because it was already an inherent feature.  



Depends if those Bitcoin users specificly switched to CoinJoin mixing capable wallets or if they were already on that wallet and using it before CoinJoin mixing got implemented there.
Only difference is that the Dash Core wallet supports CoinJoin mixing from the go and Dash Core Group (DCG) is building support for it to other DCG supported wallets as well.
While with Bitcoin it may not be directly supported in the official Bitcoin wallet (people mostly know how to do Coinjoin mixing through some specific third party wallets like Wasabi and Samourai),
but it can be done directly on the Bitcoin blockchain, without any third party wallet needed (Dash Core group made some Dash PrivateSend transactions and did those on both the Bitcoin network and the Dash network
and they were identical.

Link : https://blog.dash.org/dashs-privacy-features-and-compliance-c27d79254ff1
Direct Link tp pdf : https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://media.dash.org/wp-content/uploads/Dash-PrivateSend-Position.pdf




Fun fact : Coinjoin mixing on the Bitcoin network is much larger (4%), then the CoinJoin mixing on the Dash network (less then 1%)

Link : https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/percentage-coinjoin-bitcoin-transactions-triples-over-past-year    
Link : https://dashradar.com/charts/privatesend-transactions-per-day

Dash : Discussion Thread ->https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5115659.0
Dash : Price and Trade Discussion -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1233119.0
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September 23, 2019, 03:49:03 PM
 #12

To answer this question let's look at the demand let monero coins.https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monero/.Based on the information received, it can be concluded that the demand for this coin has remained.Therefore, the ban on its use on 2 exchanges says nothing.FATF is good,but why do other exchanges not prohibit buying and selling anonymous cryptocurrencies?So bans are not quite so strong.

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September 23, 2019, 04:50:16 PM
 #13

To answer this question let's look at the demand let monero coins.https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monero/.Based on the information received, it can be concluded that the demand for this coin has remained.Therefore, the ban on its use on 2 exchanges says nothing.FATF is good,but why do other exchanges not prohibit buying and selling anonymous cryptocurrencies?So bans are not quite so strong.
That's because exchanges are not yet required by governments where they are registered to do so. The travel rule is a mere recommendation as of now from what I understand but who knows if they will be enforced in the future. These Korean exchanges thinks it is going to happen. 


but it's Dash believe that optional privacy on its transactions is a necessity, not to be discarded lightly.

And this may be the reason why it's been delisted together with other privacy coins. If other exchanges will follow the Travel Rule, I don't see Dash not getting delisted also. 

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September 23, 2019, 05:41:15 PM
 #14


I believe these exchanges are already familiar with Dash features before they delisted it. Maybe it's not about the number of users using the CoinJoin mixing but the fact that they always have that option to make their Dash transaction private. Can Dash eliminate the CoinJoin feature?

If push comes to shove, and it's a choice of being delisted everywhere or removing coinjoin, I'd think the devs would simply remove the privacy features from the code and make it an optional additional service similar to btc. That assumes it's easy to decouple.

Now logically it shouldn't make any difference whether it's part of the wallet or not. I mean, in reality the results would be the same, so it's kind of silly. But crypto doesn't always work with logic so well, I guess.

No idea what coins like Monero will do though.

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September 23, 2019, 11:56:21 PM
 #15

Did you see Ciphertrace's response to the FATF travel rule? I wonder how that could play a part with privacy coins
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September 24, 2019, 04:34:46 AM
 #16

Did you see Ciphertrace's response to the FATF travel rule? I wonder how that could play a part with privacy coins
I read the response. It looks good on paper but this is going to take a lot of resources. It's not that I am doubting Ciphertrace "influence" but until their plan comes fruition, I don't see FATF making amendments. 


For readers reference:
One solution is using blockchain analytics tools to aid in the legitimate investigation of criminals and terrorists using cryptocurrencies to hide their activities. However, given the new FATF rule and legitimate concerns for privacy, totally new technologies are required to maintain compliance with Anti-Money Laundering (AML) and Counter Terrorist Financing (CTF) regulations.

To that end, we believe cryptographically controlled privacy mechanisms can make it possible to have both anonymity and responsible disclosure of the source of funds for legitimate purposes such as criminal or terrorist investigations and AML compliance. This is the vision that CipherTrace and its partners are working to realize — a collaborative know-your-customer (KYC) and AML ecosystem in which participating exchanges can securely transfer Proof of Knowledge without disclosing personally identifying information (PII). Our roots in cybersecurity and cryptography run much deeper than any other player in the industry, and our engineers and data scientists are developing cryptographically controlled ways to make KYC and AML faster, more efficient and open, all while maintaining a very high level of privacy and only revealing identity information when compelled to do so by legal authorities. This is how we are doing our part to foster the future growth of cryptocurrencies globally.

 
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September 24, 2019, 06:15:39 AM
 #17


I believe these exchanges are already familiar with Dash features before they delisted it. Maybe it's not about the number of users using the CoinJoin mixing but the fact that they always have that option to make their Dash transaction private. Can Dash eliminate the CoinJoin feature?

If push comes to shove, and it's a choice of being delisted everywhere or removing coinjoin, I'd think the devs would simply remove the privacy features from the code and make it an optional additional service similar to btc. That assumes it's easy to decouple.
From qwizzie's response, it's possible. Dash have other features developed so I guess removing the privacy part may have a lesser impact on the coin's marketability.

Quote
Now logically it shouldn't make any difference whether it's part of the wallet or not. I mean, in reality the results would be the same, so it's kind of silly. But crypto doesn't always work with logic so well, I guess.
Apparently, these exchanges who delisted privacy coins sees it differently. I would assume that they no longer care whether or not users can still make their transactions private using third party services.

Quote
No idea what coins like Monero will do though.
Monero's main or should we say only selling point is privacy/anonymity so it will be interesting to see what they will do.

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September 29, 2019, 05:04:41 PM
 #18

Monero's main or should we say only selling point is privacy/anonymity so it will be interesting to see what they will do.

Money as described by Aristotle in 350 BC says it has to be fungible. Only way to be fungible in case of crypocurrencies is that its transactions cant be linked.  Only way. Monero is digital cash. That is the only Monero Boss there is. A centralised Boss that sits at top of the table of any Monero Workgroup.  Without opaque ledger there is no point having Monero, we already have Bitcoin.

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September 29, 2019, 06:23:02 PM
 #19

Dash can comply to the FATF travel rule to the same extend as Bitcoin. Both Bitcoin and Dash have open blockchains, both have public senders and receivers of which data can be gathered and both Bitcoin and Dash have a very low level of optional CoinJoin mixing activity on their network (less then 1%).
I believe these exchanges are already familiar with Dash features before they delisted it. Maybe it's not about the number of users using the CoinJoin mixing but the fact that they always have that option to make their Dash transaction private. Can Dash eliminate the CoinJoin feature?

 Dash may end up removing the privacy option.. . Afterall, only 1% uses it. meaning majority of dash users don't need it?
 Unfortunately, most cryptocurrencies derive their volumes from exchanges. I guess they will do all it takes to remain on the exchanges and prevent their prices from crashing.
Dash community will still have to decide whether to remove the option via voting.



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Rainbot
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October 03, 2019, 04:18:26 PM
 #20

It seems odd that such coins as dash or monreo might vanish from the market so easily. what if they come up with a compromise? is it possible?

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