What to do about people who believe that stealing is ok

[TECSHARE]

"New Peer Reviewed Academic Study Finds Diversity is Not a Strength"

https://summit.news/2019/10/07/new-peer-reviewed-academic-study-finds-diversity-is-not-a-strength/

[1714758181]

1714758181

[1714758181]

1714758181

[coins4commies]

^You needed a whole study to find out people are racist and have less trust for people who don't look like themselves?

Oh, ok.  I think I understand your views.  

You think the current system is unfair to non-capitalists.  "It creates inequalities as people with the means of production control how much workers make.  When workers and owners do not make the same, owners steal from workers.  The owners steal the fruits of worker's labor.
You think capital is the source of all evil as it facilitates this theft."

Did I get it right?



Let me just say you have a very narrow, somewhat tunneled vision on the issue.  When you have a good idea for a product, you go out and raise capital, organize the business, hire skilled people to achieve your vision, you are taking huge risks that the whole venture might fail, many times you work for months 24/7 to get your business off the ground before any workers show up at your shop.  Workers you hire demand certain salary and you seek workers to maximize return on your capital, i.e. the best skills for the least money. At no point, you steal their salary or their opportunities.  They are at all times in full control of their careers.  Well, maybe 2-4 weeks notice, as stipulated by the employment contract, that is about it.

You think that workers hired by a well-running business deserve the share of the business profits.  On what grounds?  That would be the real theft.  If I have a software company and I am doing 10M revenue and 1M profit and I need to expand and I hire 10 new developers (10x100K) to implement the new version of my product, and I am successful and the revenues go to 200M and 20M profit, I need to share the 20M with my 10 new developers? On what grounds?  They were nowhere my business when I was working on it in my basement, eating noodles for 5 years.  How in the world would this be fair?  What about if instead of 20M profit, I incur 5M losses, would the 10 new developers share the losses with me?

Do I agree that the system seems unfair on the surface?  Of course.  You see some people flushing their wealth while others starve or go homeless.  You have to ask yourself the why question?  Not jump to the conclusion that the system is automatically fundamentally wrong.

You're mostly right but wrong about me thinking everyone should be paid the same.  I think people should be compensated for their ideas, initial investments, risk, and all the work they put into creating something but that does have a limit.  There is an actual value into the amount of work that went into that.  I'm not pretending to know what that value is in each case but I know that its a lot more than the typical worker, and a lot less than the unlimited percentage it has become through capitalism.  

Bezos, for example, definitely deserved to compensation for creating the company, but at some point, he had been fully compensated and everything beyond that is actually theft from the people who are keeping the company going and the people who are paying the true costs.  Profit gets magnified by passing costs onto other people and externalizing those costs from the company budget.  The best companies are experts at doing this.  Making someone else pay your costs is a form of theft.  Even if you don't know who that person is, you're still stealing from them.  

Its a two way street.  Wouldn't you think its weird if you had to pay every employee who ever worked at your company for the rest of their life?  It makes sense that we pay workers for the work they did and thats it so why not do the same for the owners?

Is it wrong for some people?  Of course.  People who just want the 9-5 job, with a steady paycheck, no need to worry about job security or business stability.  People without any skills or desires to own the "means of production", people who do not want to own real property, people who do not want to run any sort of business, or assume any risk in life in general.  To those people, it is definitely the wrong system.  They will suffer financially under it.  They will be scraping by their whole lives and die with mortgages on their homes.

When I first came to North America, I worked in aluminum extruder factories, farms, bakeries and the people I met made me think.  I knew right then I do not want to work for 3 years to be able to afford to buy a used car.  I remember one toothless guy, he was maybe 30 years old, we were eating our miserable sandwiches, he finished his, took his cigarettes and proudly announced that if I work for 3 years in this factory I might be able to buy a used Buick to drive to work.  He worked there for 5 years, still was riding the bus. I looked at him with great sadness because I felt sorry for him.  I knew he will die in that factory and never be able to buy that car.  The same year I enrolled in the community college.

The same thing happened when I first started working after I graduated from university.  I was hired as a "full-time" employee, I quickly realized that what they were paying me would not get me anywhere.  I needed more.  I befriended some contractors who enlightened me on the benefits of contracting.  

I switched within months to triple my "salary".  This was still not enough to feel secure.  I watched how other contractors had supply contracts to provide contractors and get $10-20/hr for every hour of work.  I needed that, and that is what I did for a while.

I never stole any money from anyone.  People willingly hired me, I willingly paid people who I hired in return.

You think people who do dangerous jobs are taking all the risks.  Nothing can be further from the truth.  

You fail to understand what risk is.   You only think of the risk of personal injury but forgetting all the business risks, legal liabilities, insurance costs.  Who do you think is bearing those risks and costs?

I worked with many brilliant developers who told me they just want a full-time job, I tried to help them to show them the way to a brighter future, they did not feel comfortable taking all the risks.  So they are still working in their 50s and 60s.  They are the same as the toothless guy I met at the aluminum extruder factory, 30 years ago.  Same mentality, same result.

If you have a worker's mentality, you will be a worker all your life, with terrible results.  You will die poor.  That is just the way it is.

Society cannot function without labor.  A worker's mentality is necessary to maintain labor.  This is why capitalism is unsustainable.  You cannot endlessly redistribute wealth away from labor and towards the top.   Our current system depends on people believing in the scam that their work will pay off.   Eventually, the myth that hard work pays off will die.   There needs to be a more diverse market for capital.  If you put capital in the hands of many people, you would get a more ethical relationship between capital and labor because labor would have more opportunities to shop around for capital and negotiate "prices".   The current state of affairs means that the masses compete for who can offer the lowest priced labor to the very few people who have capital and those with capital rarely have to compete in a market for labor because they have millions of choices.  Its not a balanced market.

PS. I feel I need to write a book for people like you to re-educate them on capitalism.  There seem to be a large, growing dissatisfaction with the capitalist system and I feel that if people are not educated on how to effectively function in it, we'll have a bloody "occupy and kill movement".  The last one was just a prelude, I am afraid.  I think the education system in North America is failing students at that task.

"Reeducation" is an interesting word choice for someone who fears the Soviet system.   The book idea is completely illogical.  Not only because  you're not going to teach morals out of someone, but because knowing how to function is not the problem.  The problem I have with capitalism is the people my success is stealing from.  Ignorance is on your side.  The most educated nations have all evolved into social democracies.   If everyone knew how the system worked, the American system would collapse in a day.   This is inevitably how capitalism will end.  The working class will eventually realize the game is rigged against them and quit or change the rules.  

There is no way to both effectively and ethically function in capitalism.  You have to pick one of the two. You can either be the rich thief or the poor working fool.  There is only some in-between because of government intervention that exists in spite of capitalism.  

[af_newbie]

^You needed a whole study to find out people are racist and have less trust for people who don't look like themselves?

Oh, ok.  I think I understand your views.  

You think the current system is unfair to non-capitalists.  "It creates inequalities as people with the means of production control how much workers make.  When workers and owners do not make the same, owners steal from workers.  The owners steal the fruits of worker's labor.
You think capital is the source of all evil as it facilitates this theft."

Did I get it right?



Let me just say you have a very narrow, somewhat tunneled vision on the issue.  When you have a good idea for a product, you go out and raise capital, organize the business, hire skilled people to achieve your vision, you are taking huge risks that the whole venture might fail, many times you work for months 24/7 to get your business off the ground before any workers show up at your shop.  Workers you hire demand certain salary and you seek workers to maximize return on your capital, i.e. the best skills for the least money. At no point, you steal their salary or their opportunities.  They are at all times in full control of their careers.  Well, maybe 2-4 weeks notice, as stipulated by the employment contract, that is about it.

You think that workers hired by a well-running business deserve the share of the business profits.  On what grounds?  That would be the real theft.  If I have a software company and I am doing 10M revenue and 1M profit and I need to expand and I hire 10 new developers (10x100K) to implement the new version of my product, and I am successful and the revenues go to 200M and 20M profit, I need to share the 20M with my 10 new developers? On what grounds?  They were nowhere my business when I was working on it in my basement, eating noodles for 5 years.  How in the world would this be fair?  What about if instead of 20M profit, I incur 5M losses, would the 10 new developers share the losses with me?

Do I agree that the system seems unfair on the surface?  Of course.  You see some people flushing their wealth while others starve or go homeless.  You have to ask yourself the why question?  Not jump to the conclusion that the system is automatically fundamentally wrong.

You're mostly right but wrong about me thinking everyone should be paid the same.  I think people should be compensated for their ideas, initial investments, risk, and all the work they put into creating something but that does have a limit.  There is an actual value into the amount of work that went into that.  I'm not pretending to know what that value is in each case but I know that its a lot more than the typical worker, and a lot less than the unlimited percentage it has become through capitalism.  

Bezos, for example, definitely deserved to compensation for creating the company, but at some point, he had been fully compensated and everything beyond that is actually theft from the people who are keeping the company going and the people who are paying the true costs.  Profit gets magnified by passing costs onto other people and externalizing those costs from the company budget.  The best companies are experts at doing this.  Making someone else pay your costs is a form of theft.  Even if you don't know who that person is, you're still stealing from them.  

Its a two way street.  Wouldn't you think its weird if you had to pay every employee who ever worked at your company for the rest of their life?  It makes sense that we pay workers for the work they did and thats it so why not do the same for the owners?

Is it wrong for some people?  Of course.  People who just want the 9-5 job, with a steady paycheck, no need to worry about job security or business stability.  People without any skills or desires to own the "means of production", people who do not want to own real property, people who do not want to run any sort of business, or assume any risk in life in general.  To those people, it is definitely the wrong system.  They will suffer financially under it.  They will be scraping by their whole lives and die with mortgages on their homes.

When I first came to North America, I worked in aluminum extruder factories, farms, bakeries and the people I met made me think.  I knew right then I do not want to work for 3 years to be able to afford to buy a used car.  I remember one toothless guy, he was maybe 30 years old, we were eating our miserable sandwiches, he finished his, took his cigarettes and proudly announced that if I work for 3 years in this factory I might be able to buy a used Buick to drive to work.  He worked there for 5 years, still was riding the bus. I looked at him with great sadness because I felt sorry for him.  I knew he will die in that factory and never be able to buy that car.  The same year I enrolled in the community college.

The same thing happened when I first started working after I graduated from university.  I was hired as a "full-time" employee, I quickly realized that what they were paying me would not get me anywhere.  I needed more.  I befriended some contractors who enlightened me on the benefits of contracting.  

I switched within months to triple my "salary".  This was still not enough to feel secure.  I watched how other contractors had supply contracts to provide contractors and get $10-20/hr for every hour of work.  I needed that, and that is what I did for a while.

I never stole any money from anyone.  People willingly hired me, I willingly paid people who I hired in return.

You think people who do dangerous jobs are taking all the risks.  Nothing can be further from the truth.  

You fail to understand what risk is.   You only think of the risk of personal injury but forgetting all the business risks, legal liabilities, insurance costs.  Who do you think is bearing those risks and costs?

I worked with many brilliant developers who told me they just want a full-time job, I tried to help them to show them the way to a brighter future, they did not feel comfortable taking all the risks.  So they are still working in their 50s and 60s.  They are the same as the toothless guy I met at the aluminum extruder factory, 30 years ago.  Same mentality, same result.

If you have a worker's mentality, you will be a worker all your life, with terrible results.  You will die poor.  That is just the way it is.

Society cannot function without labor.  A worker's mentality is necessary to maintain labor.  This is why capitalism is unsustainable.  You cannot endlessly redistribute wealth away from labor and towards the top.   Our current system depends on people believing in the scam that their work will pay off.   Eventually, the myth that hard work pays off will die.   There needs to be a more diverse market for capital.  If you put capital in the hands of many people, you would get a more ethical relationship between capital and labor because labor would have more opportunities to shop around for capital and negotiate "prices".   The current state of affairs means that the masses compete for who can offer the lowest priced labor to the very few people who have capital and those with capital rarely have to compete in a market for labor because they have millions of choices.  Its not a balanced market.

PS. I feel I need to write a book for people like you to re-educate them on capitalism.  There seem to be a large, growing dissatisfaction with the capitalist system and I feel that if people are not educated on how to effectively function in it, we'll have a bloody "occupy and kill movement".  The last one was just a prelude, I am afraid.  I think the education system in North America is failing students at that task.

"Reeducation" is an interesting word choice for someone who fears the Soviet system.   The book idea is completely illogical.  Not only because  you're not going to teach morals out of someone, but because knowing how to function is not the problem.  The problem I have with capitalism is the people my success is stealing from.  Ignorance is on your side.  The most educated nations have all evolved into social democracies.   If everyone knew how the system worked, the American system would collapse in a day.   This is inevitably how capitalism will end.  The working class will eventually realize the game is rigged against them and quit or change the rules.  

There is no way to both effectively and ethically function in capitalism.  You have to pick one of the two. You can either be the rich thief or the poor working fool.  There is only some in-between because of government intervention that exists in spite of capitalism.  

I think you are just envious of rich people.  Why would you think Bezos or Gates do not deserve their billions?  They played by the rules laid out for them by the system. What I am more interested in is how they think, not their billions.

You seem to understand how the system works and why, but I think your problem is you think workers deserve more because you think if capital was given to them, all of them will turn around and become entrepreneurs.  

Guess what, most workers are happy to be workers, nothing more nothing less.  Sure there might be some ambitious ones who feel they are stuck because the system is preventing them from becoming successful.

They of course just shift the blame to protect their fragile egos.  It is hard to admit that it is you who needs to change, it is very easy to say it is the system that needs to change.

To be successful in any game, you need to know the rules.  Hint: taxation rules should be at the top of your 'to do' list.

Criticizing the capitalist system is pointless as it will not help you financially.  Stop being envious, if you failed at making your fortune in teaching, try something else.  Sell real estate, cars, start an online 'academy', etc.

If you are incapable of change, you can only blame yourself. Not the system.

BTW, the advise I am giving you works in any system, socialism, communism or capitalism.  How do you think people become top members of the politburo?  They hustle.

[Artemis3]

So making a huge profit on your invested capital is theft?  How about a 10% or %20 profit?  Is it still theft?  You determine what is theft and what is not?  So trading securities/currencies/commodities and making a profit is also theft?  How about capital gains?  Theft?  Passive income?  Theft?  How do you propose we should treat losses?  'Untheft'?  It seems like you need a completely new vocabulary to describe your system.  Does risk exist in your utopian world?

You are very, and I stress, very uneducated.  You think you understand the system, but you really don't.  I am really surprised you even function in the capitalist system.  Let me guess, you managed to have some shitty job, answering emails and having useless meetings, or worse, you work in retail.

Your objections to the current system are based on wishful thinking and are going against our human nature.  That is why the communist-inspired social structures never worked.  You are talking about utopia.

Let me guess, you were born after 1984, and as you were growing up your parents kept telling you that you can be whoever you want to be, that you are very smart, and that you are special, the sky is the limit, that you will be able to make a 'difference', that you can change the world and find your purpose in it; you received participation medals for the last place in any competition you have ever participated in.  Then you entered the workforce and your bosses told you that you are not that special, they offered you a mediocre salary with no room for advancement, and now you are very disappointed.  

I wish the Soviet Union was still around so that you can immigrate and experience a society where most of the productive capital belonged to the 'people'.

Like I said before, you have no idea what communism is.  Go visit North Korea.

The capitalist system is less evil than the communist system.  Ask any person who lived under both systems.  Don't be ignorant.

This is in fact how they see it, it is pointless to try to discuss this with communists. Any profit you make, is the result of "exploitation of the masses", therefore, you are a thief, and its only "natural" for the "proletariat" to seize it back, by force. Yes, its an ideology of violence, its called "class struggle" by them, something about Marx citing Hegels, blah, blah.

The Soviet Union is no more, but you can still try live in my country. See if 2 USD a month for a full time job is good to live, the "Socialist dream" here, where everything is free, but nothing works (healthcare, education, police, services, etc).

Funny thing is they seized "the means of production" from the "corrupt capitalists", and were "assigned" to the even more corrupt bureaucrats, who made all those companies go bankrupt. And now that the exploiter is the State, you cannot say a word or else you are an imperialist lackey and thrown to prison.

Now we have the highest inflation, and the highest emigration or the world...

[coins4commies]

I think you are just envious of rich people.  Why would you think Bezos or Gates do not deserve their billions?  They played by the rules laid out for them by the system. What I am more interested in is how they think, not their billions.

You seem to understand how the system works and why, but I think your problem is you think workers deserve more because you think if capital was given to them, all of them will turn around and become entrepreneurs.  

Guess what, most workers are happy to be workers, nothing more nothing less.  Sure there might be some ambitious ones who feel they are stuck because the system is preventing them from becoming successful.

They of course just shift the blame to protect their fragile egos.  It is hard to admit that it is you who needs to change, it is very easy to say it is the system that needs to change.

To be successful in any game, you need to know the rules.  Hint: taxation rules should be at the top of your 'to do' list.

Criticizing the capitalist system is pointless as it will not help you financially.  Stop being envious, if you failed at making your fortune in teaching, try something else.  Sell real estate, cars, start an online 'academy', etc.

If you are incapable of change, you can only blame yourself. Not the system.

BTW, the advise I am giving you works in any system, socialism, communism or capitalism.  How do you think people become top members of the politburo?  They hustle.

I'm not sure if its intentional or not but you continue to shift the discussion away from the system and onto me personally.  My goal is not to help myself financially.  I don't understand why you keep talking about that and its only making your posts a caricature of someone with no argument.  Its basically the  "leftists are failures in their parents basement" trope.

I already have too much.  My goal is to have a system where everyone has opportunity to develop regardless of the situation they are born into.  Making a bigger fortune would in no way change the system.  Even if I sold real estate at a livible price, I'd just be a charity representing a drop in the bucket of a failed system.  Not even Bezos could use his fortune to end this system.

Stop inserting my views into your thought process and try to understand my thought process.  Not everyone bases their world view on what will make them the most money.  Thats a scarcity mindset which is characteristic of the right.  I think about what would be best for all people in the present and future.  My goal being fulfilled would actually hurt me financially because I would no longer have the competitive advantage of having all of these things from birth.   Things that most people in the world have to work really hard just to have a chance at obtaining.

Its not even a good straw man to say I am envious of rich people.  Envious means you want what someone has for yourself.  Wanting what someone has to be spread amongst the less fortunate is far from envy.  At worst, I'm a hypocrite for continuing to participate in a system I've realized as evil.  That'd at least be an argument that makes sense.

No I don't think workers would all become entrepreneurs but they would all have a chance and more importantly they would all have a chance to give their kids food, shelter, medicine, and education.  I don't think thats too much to ask.  At that point, then I wouldn't care how much wealth was accumulated at the top because everyone would already have a chance.   Its only the idea that we can't afford basic services for all children that makes billionaires evil.  

I don't teach for the money.  That would be a sad way to live and luckily I'm privileged enough to have the security that allows me thrive doing something I love in this bullshit system.  The only thing hindering my happiness is living with the guilt of all I've stolen through passive income and externalized costs.  I teach to help fulfill my goal of changing the world.  The privileged kids I teach will grow up to have all of the power in the world and their education will influence them to make ethical decisions.  I'm sure things will change because the young generation is growing up aware of the externalized costs of capitalism.  Prices aren't low and profits aren't being made.  They are simply being stolen from people in other places and times.  The kids are onto it and the upcoming disasters will expose the scam of capitalism.

[TECSHARE]

I'm not sure if its intentional or not but you continue to shift the discussion away from the system and onto me personally.  My goal is not to help myself financially.  I don't understand why you keep talking about that.  I already have too much.  My goal is to have a system where everyone has opportunity to develop regardless of the situation they are born into. This goal being fulfilled would actually hurt me financially because I would no longer have the competitive advantage of having all of these things from birth.   Things that most people in the world have to work really hard just to have a chance at obtaining.

Its not even a good straw man to say I am envious of rich people.  Envious means you want what someone has for yourself.  Wanting what someone has to be spread amongst the less fortunate is far from envy.  At worst, I'm a hypocrite for continuing to participate in a system I've realized as evil.  That'd at least be an argument that makes sense.

No I don't think workers would all become entrepreneurs but they would all have a chance and more importantly they would all have a chance to give their kids food, shelter, medicine, and education.  I don't think thats too much to ask.  At that point, then I wouldn't care how much wealth was accumulated at the top because everyone would already have a chance.   Its only the idea that we can't afford basic services for all children that makes billionaires evil. 

I don't teach for the money.  That would be a sad way to live and luckily I'm privileged enough to thrive in this bullshit system.  The only thing hindering my happiness is living with the guilt of all I've stolen through passive income.  I teach to help fulfill my goal of changing the world.  The privileged kids I teach will grow up to have all of the power in the world and their education will influence them to make ethical decisions.  I'm sure things will change because the young generation is growing up aware of the externalized costs of capitalism.  Prices aren't low and profits aren't being made.  They are simply being stolen from people in other places and times.  The kids are onto it and the upcoming disasters will expose the scam of capitalism.

Stop advocating forced redistribution of wealth. Taking the property of others to redistribute is not charity, it is theft. Its really easy to be generous with other people's resources. Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and take a vow of poverty and give all your shit away, then maybe I will bother to take you seriously. Until then go fuck yourself Comtard.

[coins4commies]

All economic systems are forced redistribution of wealth.  When you shop at whole foods,  wealth is being redistributed to bezos, the purchase is taxed and that money is redistributed to build the road for bezos' trucks to drive on.  The labor value that went into the entire process has now been redistributed towards you in the form of prices lower than costs and again to bezos in the form of profit.  

The only way to avoid redistribution of wealth would be to live off the grid and not participate in any economy.

[Saltius]

The solution to theft in most of the world is to discourage it through shame and punishment. But some parts of the world do not really see it as wrong. There is no point in shaming and while it may be technically against the law, it is not really enforced because it's "not that bad".

In Ukraine many people think that stealing from rich is normal. To steal something from rich guy or store is normal. It follows from  marxist theory (communists, socialists) in which "capitalists" already stole from you (without it they wouldn't be rich) so it normal to take from them what "really" deserves to you.

In some point this is true in reality of all post USSR region, where oligarchs in most really have stolen from other people.  

But shouldn't robbery even be ok in the Cossack tradition?

[tvbcof]

All economic systems are forced redistribution of wealth.  When you shop at whole foods,  wealth is being redistributed to bezos, the purchase is taxed and that money is redistributed to build the road for bezos' trucks to drive on.  The labor value that went into the entire process has now been redistributed towards you in the form of prices lower than costs and again to bezos in the form of profit.  

The only way to avoid redistribution of wealth would be to live off the grid and not participate in any economy.

I personally have never shopped at Amazon.  This is specifically because I don't like Bezos and don't wish to support him.  In the free market system I don't have to support people who I don't like and to a lesser degree, policies which I don't agree with.

The draw of socialism/communism with it's centrally planned economic activity model seems to be that people with unpopular ideas which don't work for shit can still maintain control through what is effectively extortion and racketeering of the populous.

[af_newbie]

I think you are just envious of rich people.  Why would you think Bezos or Gates do not deserve their billions?  They played by the rules laid out for them by the system. What I am more interested in is how they think, not their billions.

You seem to understand how the system works and why, but I think your problem is you think workers deserve more because you think if capital was given to them, all of them will turn around and become entrepreneurs.  

Guess what, most workers are happy to be workers, nothing more nothing less.  Sure there might be some ambitious ones who feel they are stuck because the system is preventing them from becoming successful.

They of course just shift the blame to protect their fragile egos.  It is hard to admit that it is you who needs to change, it is very easy to say it is the system that needs to change.

To be successful in any game, you need to know the rules.  Hint: taxation rules should be at the top of your 'to do' list.

Criticizing the capitalist system is pointless as it will not help you financially.  Stop being envious, if you failed at making your fortune in teaching, try something else.  Sell real estate, cars, start an online 'academy', etc.

If you are incapable of change, you can only blame yourself. Not the system.

BTW, the advise I am giving you works in any system, socialism, communism or capitalism.  How do you think people become top members of the politburo?  They hustle.

I'm not sure if its intentional or not but you continue to shift the discussion away from the system and onto me personally.  My goal is not to help myself financially.  I don't understand why you keep talking about that and its only making your posts a caricature of someone with no argument.  Its basically the  "leftists are failures in their parents basement" trope.

I already have too much.  My goal is to have a system where everyone has opportunity to develop regardless of the situation they are born into.  Making a bigger fortune would in no way change the system.  Even if I sold real estate at a livible price, I'd just be a charity representing a drop in the bucket of a failed system.  Not even Bezos could use his fortune to end this system.

Stop inserting my views into your thought process and try to understand my thought process.  Not everyone bases their world view on what will make them the most money.  Thats a scarcity mindset which is characteristic of the right.  I think about what would be best for all people in the present and future.  My goal being fulfilled would actually hurt me financially because I would no longer have the competitive advantage of having all of these things from birth.   Things that most people in the world have to work really hard just to have a chance at obtaining.

Its not even a good straw man to say I am envious of rich people.  Envious means you want what someone has for yourself.  Wanting what someone has to be spread amongst the less fortunate is far from envy.  At worst, I'm a hypocrite for continuing to participate in a system I've realized as evil.  That'd at least be an argument that makes sense.

No I don't think workers would all become entrepreneurs but they would all have a chance and more importantly they would all have a chance to give their kids food, shelter, medicine, and education.  I don't think thats too much to ask.  At that point, then I wouldn't care how much wealth was accumulated at the top because everyone would already have a chance.   Its only the idea that we can't afford basic services for all children that makes billionaires evil.  

I don't teach for the money.  That would be a sad way to live and luckily I'm privileged enough to have the security that allows me thrive doing something I love in this bullshit system.  The only thing hindering my happiness is living with the guilt of all I've stolen through passive income and externalized costs.  I teach to help fulfill my goal of changing the world.  The privileged kids I teach will grow up to have all of the power in the world and their education will influence them to make ethical decisions.  I'm sure things will change because the young generation is growing up aware of the externalized costs of capitalism.  Prices aren't low and profits aren't being made.  They are simply being stolen from people in other places and times.  The kids are onto it and the upcoming disasters will expose the scam of capitalism.

That is the root cause of your 'problem'.  You have not experienced what you preach. I did.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

What I was trying to tell you is that capitalism is better than communism or socialism.  But you keep saying "la-la-la, I don't care".

So stay ignorant.  Preach your nonsense.

PS. You are basically saying people who don't want to become financially independent are poor.  And it is the fault of the system that a large number of people stay poor.  You absolve people of any personal responsibility for their financial situation.  That is why communism is an insane system.

[johnpaul94]

Nice analogy.... But in some countries where people survive below a 1$ a day as a result of the greed of the government stealing it's deemed the order of the day for survival.

[Elwar]

Nice analogy.... But in some countries where people survive below a 1$ a day as a result of the greed of the government stealing it's deemed the order of the day for survival.

All well and good. The question is not about stopping stealing, stopping communists from stealing, stopping governments from stealing...

it is about how to prevent it from happening to you, as an individual.

This is bitcointalk afterall...could we not have a blockchain based reputation system to help with this?

A thief database like the child predator map? Know the level of thievery in your neighborhood/city/country in order to know how much money you need to spend on securing your property.

[actmyname]

Those in the lower class do not have to stay in the lower class. People can shift between various statuses of wealth.

Cast a stone towards the redistribution of wealth only if you expect to be constantly poor... otherwise, it wouldn't benefit you at all.

[coins4commies]

That is the root cause of your 'problem'. You have not experienced what you preach. I did.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

What I was trying to tell you is that capitalism is better than communism or socialism.  But you keep saying "la-la-la, I don't care".

So stay ignorant.  Preach your nonsense.

PS. You are basically saying people who don't want to become financially independent are poor.  And it is the fault of the system that a large number of people stay poor.  You absolve people of any personal responsibility for their financial situation.  That is why communism is an insane system.

We need a system where all workers are financially independent. There are two parts to my argument.  
1. Workers should not be poor. This is not saying that workers should be rich but just that they should have an acceptable bare minimum.  

2. People should not be born into poverty.  Of course I am absolving a child who is not properly fed of any personal responsibility for their financial situation.  What kind of monster would blame children for being born poor.  Of course there is a certain age, where children are no longer children and should have developed their own sense of responsibility but that is all depending on proper conditions for their cognitive development.

A child who experiences severe trauma throughout childhood will have their executive functioning abilities hindered.  It shouldn't be hard to understand that irresponsible behavior is more a symptom of poverty than a cause of it.  

Being born with access to basic necessities like food, shelter, health, and education is not "the other side".  I've only ever lived with these things because I was born into it.   The grass is greener on my side and I want to include everyone else.

No one has preached to live in the Soviet system.  Just because I am condemning capitalism does not mean I am endorsing the Soviet system.  Both are bad enough that its not even worth arguing which is better.   No one has lived in communism nor is that being suggested here.  Yet another soft strawman.  Social democracy like that in Northern Europe is a much better first step than totalitarian government though. I've preached everyone having opportunity and fairness in the work place.  Thats not communism.  The social democracies of Northern Europe still have a long way to go but at least they have achieved a level of dignity I consider acceptable.

UBI would also be a great first step.  Welfare and UBI don't solve all problems of capitalism but are essentially bandaids that provide dignity to the poor living in a system that is designed to crush them.  The rare exception of special people who can overcome poverty is anecdotal and in no way represents the general nature of the system. 

[TECSHARE]

We need a system where all workers are financially independent. There are two parts to my argument.  
1. Workers should not be poor. This is not saying that workers should be rich but just that they should have an acceptable bare minimum.  

2. People should not be born into poverty.  Of course I am absolving a child who is not properly fed of any personal responsibility for their financial situation.  What kind of monster would blame children for being born poor.  Of course there is a certain age, where children are no longer children and should have developed their own sense of responsibility but that is all depending on proper conditions for their cognitive development.

A child who experiences severe trauma throughout childhood will have their executive functioning abilities hindered.  It shouldn't be hard to understand that irresponsible behavior is more a symptom of poverty than a cause of it.  

Being born with access to basic necessities like food, shelter, health, and education is not "the other side".  I've only ever lived with these things because I was born into it.   The grass is greener on my side and I want to include everyone else.

No one has preached to live in the Soviet system.  Just because I am condemning capitalism does not mean I am endorsing the Soviet system.  Both are bad enough that its not even worth arguing which is better.   No one has lived in communism nor is that being suggested here.  Yet another soft strawman.  Social democracy like that in Northern Europe is a much better first step than totalitarian government though. I've preached everyone having opportunity and fairness in the work place.  Thats not communism.  The social democracies of Northern Europe still have a long way to go but at least they have achieved a level of dignity I consider acceptable.

UBI would also be a great first step.  Welfare and UBI don't solve all problems of capitalism but are essentially bandaids that provide dignity to the poor living in a system that is designed to crush them.  The rare exception of special people who can overcome poverty is anecdotal and in no way represents the general nature of the system.  

The problem with your logic (or rather lack of) is that you suffer under the delusion that everyone can be saved. You are seeking a fantasy that is impossible to implement, and every time it is tried it results in a living nightmare. Humans can potentially reproduce infinitely. Resources are not infinite no matter how much money you hand out. If you break the incentive for the producers to provide for all of us, everyone loses. In the real world bad things happen. People suffer. This is a fact of life. Your inability to come to terms with this is a result of your own infantilization living such a privileged life. Some of us made it to the life boat, some didn't. You just continually trying to jam more and more people onto the life boat means it sinks and we all drown.

You aren't a man who has suffered, you are a child misleading other children into a delusional and fatal fantasy where the police are always your friend, the doctor always wants to heal you, and the government always has your best interest at heart. You are doing nothing but preparing the next generation to fail because you can't cope with the fact that some times people end up in horrible situations, and it isn't necessarily anyone's fault. You aren't Jesus Christ and you aren't going to save the world, and you will burn it down trying.

[af_newbie]

That is the root cause of your 'problem'. You have not experienced what you preach. I did.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

What I was trying to tell you is that capitalism is better than communism or socialism.  But you keep saying "la-la-la, I don't care".

So stay ignorant.  Preach your nonsense.

PS. You are basically saying people who don't want to become financially independent are poor.  And it is the fault of the system that a large number of people stay poor.  You absolve people of any personal responsibility for their financial situation.  That is why communism is an insane system.

We need a system where all workers are financially independent. There are two parts to my argument.  
1. Workers should not be poor. This is not saying that workers should be rich but just that they should have an acceptable bare minimum.  

2. People should not be born into poverty.  Of course I am absolving a child who is not properly fed of any personal responsibility for their financial situation.  What kind of monster would blame children for being born poor.  Of course there is a certain age, where children are no longer children and should have developed their own sense of responsibility but that is all depending on proper conditions for their cognitive development.
...

re: 1
It is a noble goal. How on Earth do you want to accomplish that?    Please do not say by redistribution of wealth, from the most capable hands to everyone else regardless of skills and abilities?  This can only be accomplished by forceful confiscation from those who have more than the average.  BTW, in all capitalist societies workers already earn more than the bare minimum.  Acceptable by whom?  We all want the proverbial pony for Christmas.

You want to help the hungry, teach them how to fish. The only way out of poverty is education and hard work, IMHO.  If you steal the capital from the rich and redistribute it to the poor, it is equivalent to stealing the fish from the fishermen and giving it to the poor.  After they go through it, they will go hungry again.

re: 2
You should blame the parents for children being born poor.  You absolve the parents of that responsibility.  Sex education, pregnancy prevention, and abortion can reduce the number of children born into poverty.

Your solution is reactionary.  Dig deeper for the root causes.

[coins4commies]

That is the root cause of your 'problem'. You have not experienced what you preach. I did.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

What I was trying to tell you is that capitalism is better than communism or socialism.  But you keep saying "la-la-la, I don't care".

So stay ignorant.  Preach your nonsense.

PS. You are basically saying people who don't want to become financially independent are poor.  And it is the fault of the system that a large number of people stay poor.  You absolve people of any personal responsibility for their financial situation.  That is why communism is an insane system.

We need a system where all workers are financially independent. There are two parts to my argument.  
1. Workers should not be poor. This is not saying that workers should be rich but just that they should have an acceptable bare minimum.  

2. People should not be born into poverty.  Of course I am absolving a child who is not properly fed of any personal responsibility for their financial situation.  What kind of monster would blame children for being born poor.  Of course there is a certain age, where children are no longer children and should have developed their own sense of responsibility but that is all depending on proper conditions for their cognitive development.
...

re: 1
It is a noble goal. How on Earth do you want to accomplish that?    Please do not say by redistribution of wealth, from the most capable hands to everyone else regardless of skills and abilities?  This can only be accomplished by forceful confiscation from those who have more than the average.  BTW, in all capitalist societies workers already earn more than the bare minimum.  Acceptable by whom?  We all want the proverbial pony for Christmas.

You want to help the hungry, teach them how to fish. The only way out of poverty is education and hard work, IMHO.  If you steal the capital from the rich and redistribute it to the poor, it is equivalent to stealing the fish from the fishermen and giving it to the poor.  After they go through it, they will go hungry again.

re: 2
You should blame the parents for children being born poor.  You absolve the parents of that responsibility.  Sex education, pregnancy prevention, and abortion can reduce the number of children born into poverty.

Your solution is reactionary.  Dig deeper for the root causes.

I'm only saying we should already be giving everyone education.  Once everyone has been educated, what they do with that education is on them but you can't blame people who never had education for not making smart, educated decisions.

Give everyone good sex education and access to sexual healthcare and you reduce the birthrate.  That much is proven to work.    

I want to give everyone fishing lessons.  I want to give children fish until they are old enough to fish for themselves.

Blaming parents for children being poor is fine but doesn't solve the problem.  Punishing kids for having bad parents is awful.  Kids don't choose their parents.  

The problem with your logic (or rather lack of) is that you suffer under the delusion that everyone can be saved. You are seeking a fantasy that is impossible to implement, and every time it is tried it results in a living nightmare. Humans can potentially reproduce infinitely. Resources are not infinite no matter how much money you hand out. If you break the incentive for the producers to provide for all of us, everyone loses. In the real world bad things happen. People suffer. This is a fact of life. Your inability to come to terms with this is a result of your own infantilization living such a privileged life. Some of us made it to the life boat, some didn't. You just continually trying to jam more and more people onto the life boat means it sinks and we all drown.

You aren't a man who has suffered, you are a child misleading other children into a delusional and fatal fantasy where the police are always your friend, the doctor always wants to heal you, and the government always has your best interest at heart. You are doing nothing but preparing the next generation to fail because you can't cope with the fact that some times people end up in horrible situations, and it isn't necessarily anyone's fault. You aren't Jesus Christ and you aren't going to save the world, and you will burn it down trying.

Humans won't reproduce infinitely if they are educated.  Educating everyone isn't just going to benefit the poor.  Its going to benefit the entire society without breaking an incentive.  Survival is not the only incentive.  Theres still a huge gap between having the bare essentials and being rich.  No one wants to get rid of that gap.

Its not just "some" people or "some" times.  You need to realize that most people are poor.  Two thirds of the world's population don't even have access to clean freshwater throughout the year.    Half of the world live on less than 6 dollars a day.  The poor of the future will be even worse off.   A system that fails most people is a failed system.  We just happen to be in the exception of people who have benefited by fluke.  

Reality is already a nightmare by your own account so theres no point in staying idle and letting all of humanity's solutions to these problems go to waste.

[Moonmanmun]

What idiot would think its ok to take something that does not belong to them.
These kinds of people needs to be locked in prison

[TECSHARE]

Humans won't reproduce infinitely if they are educated.  Educating everyone isn't just going to benefit the poor.  Its going to benefit the entire society without breaking an incentive.  Survival is not the only incentive.  Theres still a huge gap between having the bare essentials and being rich.  No one wants to get rid of that gap.

Its not just "some" people or "some" times.  You need to realize that most people are poor.  Two thirds of the world's population don't even have access to clean freshwater throughout the year.    Half of the world live on less than 6 dollars a day.  The poor of the future will be even worse off.   A system that fails most people is a failed system.  We just happen to be in the exception of people who have benefited by fluke.  

Reality is already a nightmare by your own account so theres no point in staying idle and letting all of humanity's solutions to these problems go to waste.

You sure are making lots of assumptions about things that will have tremendously horrible results when you are proven wrong. Saying people will not reproduce infinitely if educated is like saying no one will starve if they have food. It is a nonsense premise that seems self evident while simultaneously having zero assurance of being achieved, and furthermore if it is not achieved the result is there aren't enough resources for anyone and mass death and suffering increases, possibly to terminal levels for humanity and other species.

You need to realize you aren't enlightened for imagining a better world. You aren't saying anything new, profound, or even useful. What you are advocating for is 100% based in ethos, and has no basis in reality. You can imagine a world where everyone gets a pony, but that makes no difference in bringing that to reality. It simply is not possible, that its without horrible freedom crushing technocratic totalitarianism where humans are managed like cattle and make none of their own choices.

More and more people are being brought out of poverty than ever before in human history in spite of your winging and despair. You don't have any  solutions, you have fantasies with no functional plan to get there. You fail to realize you are only taking those that don't live in a nightmare and sending them and everyone else to an even worse hell.


Coins4Commies Global Development Strategy:

[tvbcof]

Coins4Commies Global Development Strategy:

That diagram shows part of one cycle.

Any Communist from Marx on down will tell you that Capitalism is a necessary stage in political development.  It's the stage where shit that is worth stealing is created.  Then Communism steals it.  Then Communism collapses and you get an Oligarchy.  The former Soviet Union is the best example of of what is nearly a full cycle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoQhXh_Q0AU