a society question about vegans

[styca]

you will be glad to know you still dont have to agree with badecker. because not everything grows back each spring

Phew. Thanks.

especially if its been trampled over..

I have to take partial responsibility for this. Me and my vegan friends frequently trample through farmers' fields under cover of darkness, foraging for nuts and berries.

[franky1]

you will be glad to know you still dont have to agree with badecker. because not everything grows back each spring

Phew. Thanks.

especially if its been trampled over..

I have to take partial responsibility for this. Me and my vegan friends frequently trample through farmers' fields under cover of darkness, foraging for nuts and berries.

(i understand your sentiment was comedic)
but them dirt paths you follow that have been constant year after year, caused by just low population of a few ramblers walking the same strict route. as most other human population use roads instead

now imagine a field being used like a music festival routinely,trampled on randomly with no obvious care for direction or route


because after all cows dont the intellect to drive cars to just stick to roads or enough intellect to stick to paths
its why farmers doing organic grass feed free range farming have to section off fields and herd cows to new sections every fortnight in cycles of a couple months


to then.. human organised reseed .. the first patch and give it time to regrow over that 6week recovery time before letting the cattle back on that section

imagine if farmers didnt do that and just let cows bred naturally by not separating the bull from the cows, and not sectioning off area's to give it a chance to regrow. nor reseed the land after the cows move to new area's

[styca]

Overpopulation of cows etc would be a problem if the whole world turned vegan overnight. We'd have to work out how to solve the problem we'd created by breeding so many of them.
However whilst veganism is increasing, it is increasing slowly. Lower demand for meat can be managed through controlled breeding (of livestock, not of vegans. Actually, controlled breeding of vegans would probably also help to keep the vegan numbers down. Win win).

[franky1]

Overpopulation of cows etc would be a problem if the whole world turned vegan overnight. We'd have to work out how to solve the problem we'd created by breeding so many of them.
However whilst veganism is increasing, it is increasing slowly. Lower demand for meat can be managed through controlled breeding (of livestock, not of vegans. Actually, controlled breeding of vegans would probably also help to keep the vegan numbers down. Win win).

but vegans dont want a natural free choice to just not eat meat and let farming de-popularise out of less demand. they want to change laws and give animals human rights. such as recent news of laws giving animals 'sentience' "they have thoughts and feelings too" thus trying to make slaughtering and cattle farming illegal overnight

again vegetarians for decades had the mindset of just stop eating meat and demand would fall. but vegans are going full throttle into changing laws and wanting overnight change.

[star7dust]

All you talk about sounds legit. I don't mind veganism at all, I even find it quite attractive, but if we think about the consequences it can bring it turns out not so ideal. Also, funny enough, some vegans say that for them all lives are equal, but they don't bother when they step on an ant, for example, or kill a mosquito that's picking them. Well, what I want to say is: you can't be nice to everyone and everything. However vegans are really strong and determined people, I admire them

[gabmen]

Overpopulation of cows etc would be a problem if the whole world turned vegan overnight. We'd have to work out how to solve the problem we'd created by breeding so many of them.
However whilst veganism is increasing, it is increasing slowly. Lower demand for meat can be managed through controlled breeding (of livestock, not of vegans. Actually, controlled breeding of vegans would probably also help to keep the vegan numbers down. Win win).

but vegans dont want a natural free choice to just not eat meat and let farming de-popularise out of less demand. they want to change laws and give animals human rights. such as recent news of laws giving animals 'sentience' "they have thoughts and feelings too" thus trying to make slaughtering and cattle farming illegal overnight

again vegetarians for decades had the mindset of just stop eating meat and demand would fall. but vegans are going full throttle into changing laws and wanting overnight change.

I don't think every vegetarian wants that though. Most vegans i know became like that through personal choice. They wanted to avoid meat though  they won't force other people to share their sentiments. Some of the are aware that we need the nutrition that comes from meat. They just choose to find alternatives and they apply it only to themselves.

[styca]

Overpopulation of cows etc would be a problem if the whole world turned vegan overnight. We'd have to work out how to solve the problem we'd created by breeding so many of them.
However whilst veganism is increasing, it is increasing slowly. Lower demand for meat can be managed through controlled breeding (of livestock, not of vegans. Actually, controlled breeding of vegans would probably also help to keep the vegan numbers down. Win win).

but vegans dont want a natural free choice to just not eat meat and let farming de-popularise out of less demand. they want to change laws and give animals human rights. such as recent news of laws giving animals 'sentience' "they have thoughts and feelings too" thus trying to make slaughtering and cattle farming illegal overnight

again vegetarians for decades had the mindset of just stop eating meat and demand would fall. but vegans are going full throttle into changing laws and wanting overnight change.

That's a valid point actually, that if the law changed then it would be an instant problem overnight.
However I don't think a law change is likely in a western democracy. It would be a real vote killer unless >50% of the population (who could be bothered to vote) was already vegan.

[franky1]

Overpopulation of cows etc would be a problem if the whole world turned vegan overnight. We'd have to work out how to solve the problem we'd created by breeding so many of them.
However whilst veganism is increasing, it is increasing slowly. Lower demand for meat can be managed through controlled breeding (of livestock, not of vegans. Actually, controlled breeding of vegans would probably also help to keep the vegan numbers down. Win win).

but vegans dont want a natural free choice to just not eat meat and let farming de-popularise out of less demand. they want to change laws and give animals human rights. such as recent news of laws giving animals 'sentience' "they have thoughts and feelings too" thus trying to make slaughtering and cattle farming illegal overnight

again vegetarians for decades had the mindset of just stop eating meat and demand would fall. but vegans are going full throttle into changing laws and wanting overnight change.

That's a valid point actually, that if the law changed then it would be an instant problem overnight.
However I don't think a law change is likely in a western democracy. It would be a real vote killer unless >50% of the population (who could be bothered to vote) was already vegan.

laws can and do change in the western democracy.. and if you didnt realise.. citizens dont vote on laws, they only vote for mp's once every 4-5 years

separetly MP's then vote on laws depending on what their 'whips'  l lobbyists convince them to vote on

at the moment in th UK brxit is opening an oppertunity to change laws real easily, because the UK doesnt have to follow EU laws after brexit the vegans are pretending that animal welfare automatically disappears at brexit.
it doesnt
but what they are trying to do is convince MP's that it will and to enforce a new law for animal welfare that is far stricter than the current laws.

basically we have had RSPCA and animal welfare all along. but the vegan crowd want a new law that makes animals have a higher 'sentience' definition that makes them have a 'life worth living' factor included. this means they cannot be killed just for meat as soon as they reach a certain weight while still young and healthy, but only euphanised if they are too old and suffering or have a disease that would cause suffering

different animals have different levels of 'sentience' for instance run over a bird, no harm no.. 'fowl' .. but run over a dog and RSPCA will come knocking and treat it like a hit and run.
what the vegan groups want is all animals whether wild or farmed be treated with the same high level of dogs/cats
which might all sound peace and love hippy happy.. but the reality is going to be the opposite

[styca]

laws can and do change in the western democracy.. and if you didnt realise.. citizens dont vote on laws, they only vote for mp's once every 4-5 years

Sure. But MPs once elected don't suddenly start implementing unpopular policies like banning meat, which will see them voted out in 4 years' time. Politicians are short-termists. Everything is done with an eye on the next election.

at the moment in th UK brxit is opening an oppertunity to change laws real easily, because the UK doesnt have to follow EU laws after brexit the vegans are pretending that animal welfare automatically disappears at brexit.
it doesnt
but what they are trying to do is convince MP's that it will and to enforce a new law for animal welfare that is far stricter than the current laws.

We have a Conservative government. Their aim is to strip away protections and regulations, always has been, look at their history. They would certainly not implement anything that could act as a brake on the excessive profits of their friends.

different animals have different levels of 'sentience' for instance run over a bird, no harm

Not trying to be a preachy vegan (feel free to complain about it though, I can take it :p ) ... but have a look at tool use in New Caledonian crows, if you're interested. I mean by the crows, not 'in' the crows. Yuk.

[akram143]

I don't think every vegetarian wants that though. Most vegans i know became like that through personal choice. They wanted to avoid meat though  they won't force other people to share their sentiments. Some of the are aware that we need the nutrition that comes from meat. They just choose to find alternatives and they apply it only to themselves.

Most people think that they are killing animals and eating them which sounds something weird to them but they misses the food cycle if we got imbalance at one stage then whole world will be in danger so if they did for personal preferece then its okay but if they are claiming they are good souls and who were eating meats are going to be in hell then they are just stupids.

[franky1]

different animals have different levels of 'sentience' for instance run over a bird, no harm

Not trying to be a preachy vegan (feel free to complain about it though, I can take it :p ) ... but have a look at tool use in New Caledonian crows, if you're interested. I mean by the crows, not 'in' the crows. Yuk.

sentience and 'reason'
the ability to think 'reason' is the difference between a bacteria and a animal. animals can think and plan. yep they know what to eat, where to find it and how to get to their food
but sentience is more about the ability to feel. such as questioning their reason to be alive and getting emotional about it

the laws of sentience ripples to things about is it murder if an animal is killed or is it just an incident
it ripples into things like is aiding a comatose person to die classed as murder or euthanasia
same as people in vegetative states. its why people are literally called vegetables when they have no cognative awareness of their life.
it impacts things like medical proxy why by a next of kin can decide on another persons medical choices if their cognative abilities are in question
it impacts who is a guardian/carer of an animal or child depending on the level of cognition. its why when a dog craps in a public area, its not the dogs fault for crapping but the dogs owner fault if the dogs owner does not cleanup.

again there are different levels of sentience
a bluetit bird doesnt have the cognative ability to plan on using tools, all it knows is to follow its friends (flock/murmuration)
where as crows and magpies have more cognative abilities. but still not enough to be classed as sentient whereby its lawfully classed as murder to run over a bird

by giving animals the same 'sentience' level as man. is obviously going to cause animal-slaughter to be punishable to the same level as man-slaughter
thus its not just going to be about 'aww that birds smart' but cause people to be criminals for accidently running ovr a bird, or make farming illegal just like euphanasia is.

[BobBct]

I guess lets just respect however a person in there diet. As long as it is in the boundaries of human law then that is fine. Be it a vegan or not.  Let's just respect our differences. Anyway, it's what makes human unique, we have a lot of differences right. Cheers.

[Sadlife]

Agreed we chose to live with reality and chose to accept what the good earth has to offer. Its not like we kill & cook those animals cause we want to, its because we need to. The benefits of good meat to our body and essential nutrients of it that makes our muscles even stronger. Even in the animal kingdom different types of species fight for survival cause that just how the natural cycle goes. To maintain order and control.

[jackg]

I was looking at an article recently on ferral pigs in panema and I'm not sure if anyone knows about them and if they've caused any nuisence (though I imagine they have) - there are also more cows than humans and probably more chickens and pigs.

A lot of things vegans say are just stupid anyway, they don't eat honey because it (supposedly) harms bees but somehow eat flour (because combine harvisters have anti-rodent protection now - they don't)...

Most of the time it's good to at least eat animal byproducts as you're keeping up the diversity, if you can try to go with organic options then they'll be much healthier (if they are actually organic as those animals are better at digesting some vitamins from the gound and producing vitamin D from the sun - where land is cheap you're more likely to find organic well grown animals).

And don't even get me started on fake meat... I don't want to eat a burger because I don't want to kill a cow, but here's my enthused alternative made from soil mould (the thing that means I have to throw out potatoes every month)...

[BADecker]

^^^ It's wise to pressure cook ferral pigs before you eat them.     

[bananacue]

Just a point here. Not all vegans are such because of the fact that they care about the animals that are dying. If they were -- they'd have a hard time surviving day to day due to the amount of products that are made with animal byproducts.

Most Vegans are that way due to the health benefits of a Vegan lifestyle -- it's not healthy to eat Steak (we do it), it's not healthy to eat processed meats (we do it), and so on. Most foods that we eat as staples -- think sandwiches, eggs,etc -- just aren't good for you.

The Vegan lifestyle is the healthiest. It truly is.

I agree, most of vegans are health concious  and also there are alternatives source of protein other than meat such as tofu or eggs.

[Negotiation]

I think it would be a loss of choice if they couldn't kill it Because it was a profession in their past Now we need animals to keep our society in balance. If we do not harm them they will be able to multiply and increase their numbers In order to survive we have to consume a lot of food for the human body to make meat-eating veggies.

[akram143]

Just a point here. Not all vegans are such because of the fact that they care about the animals that are dying. If they were -- they'd have a hard time surviving day to day due to the amount of products that are made with animal byproducts.

Most Vegans are that way due to the health benefits of a Vegan lifestyle -- it's not healthy to eat Steak (we do it), it's not healthy to eat processed meats (we do it), and so on. Most foods that we eat as staples -- think sandwiches, eggs,etc -- just aren't good for you.

The Vegan lifestyle is the healthiest. It truly is.

I agree, most of vegans are health concious  and also there are alternatives source of protein other than meat such as tofu or eggs.

So they are having hard time on digesting meats that is why they turned out into vegans?

[gabmen]

Just a point here. Not all vegans are such because of the fact that they care about the animals that are dying. If they were -- they'd have a hard time surviving day to day due to the amount of products that are made with animal byproducts.

Most Vegans are that way due to the health benefits of a Vegan lifestyle -- it's not healthy to eat Steak (we do it), it's not healthy to eat processed meats (we do it), and so on. Most foods that we eat as staples -- think sandwiches, eggs,etc -- just aren't good for you.

The Vegan lifestyle is the healthiest. It truly is.

I agree, most of vegans are health concious  and also there are alternatives source of protein other than meat such as tofu or eggs.

So they are having hard time on digesting meats that is why they turned out into vegans?

Well that's one good reason why one goes full vegan. Sometimes it's not about advocacy and it's about just living a heathy lifestyle and diet. There are those that are in a way, forced to avoid meat. In the end it's a choice. I still believe that we need the proteins and nutrients that can be found in meat and i can't see myself going vegan. But as I've said, it's a choice most of the time.

[akram143]

Just a point here. Not all vegans are such because of the fact that they care about the animals that are dying. If they were -- they'd have a hard time surviving day to day due to the amount of products that are made with animal byproducts.

Most Vegans are that way due to the health benefits of a Vegan lifestyle -- it's not healthy to eat Steak (we do it), it's not healthy to eat processed meats (we do it), and so on. Most foods that we eat as staples -- think sandwiches, eggs,etc -- just aren't good for you.

The Vegan lifestyle is the healthiest. It truly is.

I agree, most of vegans are health concious  and also there are alternatives source of protein other than meat such as tofu or eggs.

So they are having hard time on digesting meats that is why they turned out into vegans?

Well that's one good reason why one goes full vegan. Sometimes it's not about advocacy and it's about just living a heathy lifestyle and diet. There are those that are in a way, forced to avoid meat. In the end it's a choice. I still believe that we need the proteins and nutrients that can be found in meat and i can't see myself going vegan. But as I've said, it's a choice most of the time.

Absolutely,we need those high protein foods to build our muscle then can we workout to get better physique.Eating veggies all the time can make you feel less powered.Just my personal observation.