Trump Impeachment Public Hearings [serious discussion]

[JollyGood]

Here is my view:

1: (False) The phone call was not perfect, it was full of quid pro quo

2: (False) The phone call recording should provide ample evidence alongside testimonies from those directly affected and involved

3: (False) If he did it, it definitely is an impeachable issue

Try considering just the evidence of the trial, not that it's Trump being investigated, or the democrats doing the investigation, and no 'us vs them' mentality.

True or False: 1- 'it was a perfect phone call, there was no quid pro quo'

True or False: 2 - 'it's all hearsay and second hand information' (this implies that direct evidence would be relevant)

True or False: 3 - 'if he did do it, it's not impeachable'

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[Viper1]

Hearsay evidence of "B" may exist, but is not admissible in a court of law.

That is a common fallacy but is not true at all. There is a pretty long list of exceptions to it such as some of these which could be applied in this case:

- The court recognizes that by law the declarant is not required to testify;
- The declarant refuses to testify;

Some other exceptions which may or may not apply:

- It has sound guarantees of trustworthiness
- It is offered to help prove a material fact
- It is more probative than other equivalent and reasonably obtainable evidence
- Its admission would forward the cause of justice
- The other parties have been notified that it will be offered into evidence

That's just a handful. So yes, hearsay can be admissible. In this case much of it was corroborated between a variety of witnesses which gives it much more weight.

Well, the Democrats have pursued all such theories, and here they are.

Don't know what your point it. When one group is judge, jury and executioner they can choose to ignore what is appropriate and legal for whatever reason they can pull out of their asses. Either side. And the people end up just having to suck it up and complain in their beer but then turn around and keep voting them all in time and time again. These days it's always voting for who you think is the least bad because there is no other choice.

[TwitchySeal]

These days it's always voting for who you think is the least bad because there is no other choice.

I think there's something different happening among Trumps base and it's getting weirder and weirder.  They aren't choosing which politician is least bad, they are choosing to worship Trump.
I think that this whole impeachment process has the potential to bring it to the attention of many Americans who maybe haven't been following close enough to hear over all the noise that the President has been becoming more and more powerful.

These warning signs of a cult make me think...:

- Promises are made of a new life.
  * The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer. Everyone is listening to you now... From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land. (inauguration)

- Former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative, or even evil.

- The Leaders authority is absolute, without meaningful accountability.

- There is no tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

- There is no meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement.  (Billionaire with international corporation, but wont let us see his taxes...)

- There exists an unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies, and persecutions.
 * You have no choice. You have to vote for me. Otherwise, everything that you've built in your entire life will be gone. Goodbye, Iowa. Have a good time. Instead, I worked my ass off up here, OK.
 * If you want your children to inherit the blessings that generations of Americans have fought and died for, then, we must devote everything we have toward victory in November of 2020. (this week)

- Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
  * Tillerson, General McMaster, General Kelly, etc...

- There are records, books, news articles, television programs that document the abuses of the leader. (fake news)

- The group/leader is always right.

- The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation; no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.



Am I crazy to think the trial might have opened a lot of peoples eyes who may have otherwise not paid attention to these things?

[suchmoon]

Am I crazy to think the trial might have opened a lot of peoples eyes who may have otherwise not paid attention to these things?

Yes, you probably are. Not a single trumper that I know has shown any signs of doubt regarding their leader. And those who haven't been paying attention for the last 4 years didn't suddenly become curious and informed. If anything, the economic boom has made it easier to ignore beltway politics.

[TwitchySeal]

Am I crazy to think the trial might have opened a lot of peoples eyes who may have otherwise not paid attention to these things?

Yes, you probably are. Not a single trumper that I know has shown any signs of doubt regarding their leader. And those who haven't been paying attention for the last 4 years didn't suddenly become curious and informed. If anything, the economic boom has made it easier to ignore beltway politics.

I don't expect a single supporter to have their mind changed by literally anything.  I meant the rest of the country.  I hope youre wrong about the second part, I mean the case wasn't that complicated, but yeah, you might be right.



Closing arguments start in a bit, then the Senators each get a chance to speak.  Will be interesting to see how many Republicans do a victory dance, how many speak out against Trump, and how many say nothing.

[Spendulus]

...

Well, the Democrats have pursued all such theories, and here they are.

Don't know what your point it. ...
[/quote]Dems brought an extremely weak case, and the weak case played out as a weak case would.

....

Am I crazy to think the trial might have opened a lot of peoples eyes who may have otherwise not paid attention to these things?

Wrong, not crazy.

2016 started out with a strong Anti-Trump-Cult.
There were many anti-Hillary factions and votes that went to Trump.
That has changed first to grudging acceptance to some outright enthusiasm.

I never thought Trump was that likable.

2020 seems to have about the same Anti-Trump-Cult as 2016. I don't agree with the Anti-Trump-Hate because, well for one thing, no new wars. For another, some progress in crime reform and jobs in the lower income sectors.

[Viper1]

I think there's something different happening among Trumps base and it's getting weirder and weirder.  They aren't choosing which politician is least bad, they are choosing to worship Trump.

Some yes. But most are simply mad at Washington, both sides, and want someone to be their spokesperson and do what's right for them. It's a result of the increasing wealth disparity. There are studies for example that show clearly that as the gap widens, things like violence increases in a society. And Trump spoke to what the masses thought needed to change and promised them what they wanted even though he's really ineffective. He has the power to mobilize his supporters and instead he cries about how everyone attacks him and he attacks the media. He only cares about himself and having his base idolize him. Doesn't matter if it's the right thing to do or not, as long as it's what they want, he'll do it so he gets those cheers at the rallies and gets voted in again.

Bernie is the Trump of the left and "he" scares me more than Trump does. Bernie isn't a bumbling buffoon. He knows he has power in his supporters, he knows how to use it and he knows he will need to. I think Bernie is milk toast though.. he's ideological.. Most of his supporters hear "socialist" and think social programs. But his far left supporters.. Well... They are mobilized and ready to make things happen. They are also of the sort that want "revolution", a portion of them are of the "force" type and another portion of doing it from within the system. And they are ready to do away with things like freedom of speech, the electoral college and more. And just as the Republicans are weak willed and bend to Trump because they're afraid of him and the base, the Democrats will do exactly the same thing. So congrats to the right and Trump. Keep on attacking Biden as that will ensure Bernie gets the nomination. Thank you for making it more and more likely that someone (through his base that's ready to exert power) even more dangerous IMO has a chance of becoming the next President.

Am I crazy to think the trial might have opened a lot of peoples eyes who may have otherwise not paid attention to these things?

Maybe some small number but overall.. No I don't really think so.. The majority don't care as long as he gets them the judges and fights with the left (and the right to some extent) and the media, i.e. the "establishment". They're willing to look the other way over everything else as they think they're getting the greater good. Keep in mind that many of them are also of the mind set of "tear it all down". They want the "establishment" to destroy itself and fail to recognize that it will take the country with it. And the far left... Well.. They're just as bad but about other things.

My grandparents left Germany prior to WWII because they could see how things were changing etc. I'm starting to feel like I know exactly what they were feeling and experiencing.

[Spendulus]

....So congrats to the right and Trump. Keep on attacking Biden as that will ensure Bernie gets the nomination. ....

Well, that's not EXACTLY accurate.

The shutdown of the never-ending-parade this-time-around "Impeachment" does save Biden face, no dragging Hunter in etc. Leaves Biden in the running,doesn't it?

[Viper1]

....So congrats to the right and Trump. Keep on attacking Biden as that will ensure Bernie gets the nomination. ....

Well, that's not EXACTLY accurate.

The shutdown of the never-ending-parade this-time-around "Impeachment" does save Biden face, no dragging Hunter in etc. Leaves Biden in the running,doesn't it?

Trump will continue and now Lindsey is saying they're going to do a bunch of stuff. But then again he's been saying that for awhile so who knows why he's saying it now.

[TwitchySeal]

....So congrats to the right and Trump. Keep on attacking Biden as that will ensure Bernie gets the nomination. ....

Well, that's not EXACTLY accurate.

The shutdown of the never-ending-parade this-time-around "Impeachment" does save Biden face, no dragging Hunter in etc. Leaves Biden in the running,doesn't it?

Trump will continue and now Lindsey is saying they're going to do a bunch of stuff. But then again he's been saying that for awhile so who knows why he's saying it now.

I find it hard to believe they (Trump, not Congress) haven't been putting some serious effort into investigating the Bidens and the DNC.  It's possible they already have something and are saving it for later.  Also possible they have nothing and it goes the way of all the other democrat investigations he got everyone all fired up about that just fizzled out.

[Viper1]

....So congrats to the right and Trump. Keep on attacking Biden as that will ensure Bernie gets the nomination. ....

Well, that's not EXACTLY accurate.

The shutdown of the never-ending-parade this-time-around "Impeachment" does save Biden face, no dragging Hunter in etc. Leaves Biden in the running,doesn't it?

Trump will continue and now Lindsey is saying they're going to do a bunch of stuff. But then again he's been saying that for awhile so who knows why he's saying it now.

I find it hard to believe they (Trump, not Congress) haven't been putting some serious effort into investigating the Bidens and the DNC.  It's possible they already have something and are saving it for later.  Also possible they have nothing and it goes the way of all the other democrat investigations he got everyone all fired up about that just fizzled out.

They don't need anything. All they need is the appearance of something and that's exactly what this has all been about.

Besides getting paid a stupid amount every month, Hunter is also being accused of getting some huge amount of money. The "proof" however, despite having specifics on all transactions up until that point, has none for the payments that are supposed to have gone to Hunter. But anyone that believes in conspiracies will believe it was a big payment. They want to believe that.. So, they just need the appearance.

There was a variety of things about the Shoken stuff that bothered me for a long time.. Then I finally realized what it was and other things seemed to come together. Why did they think Shoken was corrupt and yet why has there been no "proof". Even just some rough statement. Granted he apparently didn't do anything.. to anyone.. in all his time.. but we'll ignore that.

He made the statement that he was told to use "white gloves" with the Burisma investigation. He stated he took that to mean he needed to be hands off. i.e. "protect" Biden and his son. I finally realized why that seemed off to me. It's because that phrase means the opposite of what he thought it did. He was told by the US guy to actually do a very thorough and competent job. That's what it means. Now maybe in their culture it's something different. Or it's a phrase uncommon to them and because he lives in a society where everyone is corrupt he assumed the Bidens were as well and that he was being told to look the other way. The end results is that he did nothing. So from that, it's stands to reason that the US would then think he was corrupt since he wasn't doing the investigation they had told him to do a thorough job of.

When fired, he says he was told it was because Biden had told the President that they had proof he was corrupt. I suspect it's more that since Shoken had been told to do a thorough job yet did nothing, they assumed he was corrupt. The President may or may not have said that to Shoken but even if he did he could also have simply misinterpreted or, as many do, was casting blame elsewhere so it would not fall on him.

Given that one misunderstanding, I can see how it all could have played out the way it did. Of course maybe there was evidence he was corrupt but I've never heard anything that indicates there is.

Regardless, as it stands it makes for a good way to smear the Bidens. I doubt they really want it looked into as it could end up clearing them and that doesn't suit there purposes right now. Everything is currently nice and murky and perfect for the job they want done.

[TwitchySeal]

Besides getting paid a stupid amount every month, Hunter is also being accused of getting some huge amount of money. The "proof" however, despite having specifics on all transactions up until that point, has none for the payments that are supposed to have gone to Hunter. But anyone that believes in conspiracies will believe it was a big payment. They want to believe that.. So, they just need the appearance.

I think there's proof of payments.  But Biden and Archer were running a private equity firm.  They were accepting investments from all over the place.  Yeah, it's shady, but the way they are dividing a few payments (which were likely deposits), by however many months he was on the board, and then implying it was actually a salary going straight to his pocket is also shady.  

There was a variety of things about the Shoken stuff that bothered me for a long time.. Then I finally realized what it was and other things seemed to come together. Why did they think Shoken was corrupt and yet why has there been no "proof". Even just some rough statement. Granted he apparently didn't do anything.. to anyone.. in all his time.. but we'll ignore that.

Shoken was basically working for Russia.  He was only prosecuting people who protested in favor of Ukrainian independence and protecting those who were in support of Yanukovych (Ukrainian President who received billions in bribes from Russia while he was in office, Ukraine flipped out when he decided not to sign the agreement to join the EU - which obviously Putin would've hated to happen).

Probably the most well known shitty thing he did was block the prosecution of the pro-Russia shooters who killed a bunch of protestors . (I think it was called the Maiden Massacre).

There's also news articles from 2015-16, it was very clear that the guy was corrupt, and those who wanted Ukraine to be independent wanted him gone.  I haven't seen Biden mentioned anywhere.
Remember, all of this went down within a year or two of Ukraine literally overthrowing their corrupt president who was in Putins pocket.  

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-hails-sacking-of-ukraine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/media-prosecutor-general-shokin-submits-resignation-408228.html?cn-reloaded=1
https://en.odfoundation.eu/a/6016%2Cstop-the-appointment-of-shokin
https://www.unian.info/society/1170127-auto-maidan-protesters-arrived-at-poroshenkos-residence-demanding-shokins-resignation-photos.html



tldr;
Hunter shady?  Yeah, probably.
But it seems like Joe Biden was probably exaggerating the roll he played in Shokin getting the boot.
And it seems pretty unlikely that his son had anything to do with Shokin getting the boot.

[Spendulus]

....So congrats to the right and Trump. Keep on attacking Biden as that will ensure Bernie gets the nomination. ....

Well, that's not EXACTLY accurate.

The shutdown of the never-ending-parade this-time-around "Impeachment" does save Biden face, no dragging Hunter in etc. Leaves Biden in the running,doesn't it?

Trump will continue and now Lindsey is saying they're going to do a bunch of stuff. But then again he's been saying that for awhile so who knows why he's saying it now.

I find it hard to believe they (Trump, not Congress) haven't been putting some serious effort into investigating the Bidens and the DNC.  It's possible they already have something and are saving it for later.  Also possible they have nothing and it goes the way of all the other democrat investigations he got everyone all fired up about that just fizzled out.

Naw. The way the game was played by the liberal team so far reeks of incompetence. That's not what the Trump/McConnell team is.

Look, I think we can agree that a positive result of the Senate squashing this road kill of an impeachment is no public inquiry into Biden - at least for the time being. Because as noted, Biden down, Bernie up. So now the old fat white power brokers in the back room can push their guy, Biden, and backup billionaire. Because they are rich guys, rich on industries Bernie wants to dig into. They won't allow that.

Personally I'm for taking whatever is criminal totally out of the political sphere and letting Bill Barr go at it/them. I don't know if that includes Hunter Biden, my guess is no.

[suchmoon]

Personally I'm for taking whatever is criminal totally out of the political sphere and letting Bill Barr go at it/them.

Except the Trump clan, right?

[TwitchySeal]

Naw. The way the game was played by the liberal team so far reeks of incompetence. That's not what the Trump/McConnell team is.

The whole 'democrats are incompetent, stupid, deranged' argument is just lame.    Mitch and Pelosi both know how to play the game, probably better than anyone else in congress and definitely better than anyone around here.  If you think you know exactly what's going to happen, or that you know better than Pelosi when it comes to anything related to political strategy......I just don't know what to tell you other than what I did before.  Try approaching the situation without the 'us vs them' mentality.  Flip the Ds with the Rs and play out the scenarios that way.  

Personally I'm for taking whatever is criminal totally out of the political sphere and letting Bill Barr go at it/them. I don't know if that includes Hunter Biden, my guess is no.

But you think Flynn was 'entrapped', Manafort wasn't actually Chairman of Trumps campaign, Roger Stone was just doing oppo research and they should've arrested him more gently.

Try flipping the rolls.  Hillary or Biden is president and like 5 or 6 people involved in their campaign or administration end up convicted of felonies before the end of their first term.  You gonna defend any of them even 1% of the amount you've defended all of Trumps people that are now felons?

[Spendulus]

Naw. The way the game was played by the liberal team so far reeks of incompetence. That's not what the Trump/McConnell team is.

The whole 'democrats are incompetent, stupid, deranged' argument is just lame.    Mitch and Pelosi both know how to play the game, probably better than anyone else in congress and definitely better than anyone around here.  If you think you know exactly what's going to happen, or that you know better than Pelosi when it comes to anything related to political strategy......I just don't know what to tell you other than what I did before.  Try approaching the situation without the 'us vs them' mentality.  Flip the Ds with the Rs and play out the scenarios that way.  ....

I understand what you are getting to.

But I'm able to ascertain levels of competence, for example assessing Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, and Obama. No problem with giving them credit for their good points, or pointing out obvious bad ones. Sure there's a lot of stuff in the middle ground.

But is any deranged leftist going to argue Bengazi wasn't plain and simple, a total fuckup?

When actions pretty much shout "Incompetent am I!" there's no reason not just to take it at face value.

By the way, why not apply your own lecturing mode condescending superiority to yourself? Lol...

...
But you think Flynn was 'entrapped'....

It's not exactly "me." I don't think about Flynn.

How about the Washington Post?

https://nypost.com/2020/01/31/the-flynn-prosecution-now-stands-exposed-as-massive-fbi-and-doj-abuse-of-power/

[TwitchySeal]

...
But you think Flynn was 'entrapped'....

It's not exactly "me." I don't think about Flynn.

How about the Washington Post?

https://nypost.com/2020/01/31/the-flynn-prosecution-now-stands-exposed-as-massive-fbi-and-doj-abuse-of-power/

That's a New York Post editorial (a tabloid owned by Murdoch and the chief editor is Trumps personal friend Col Allan) about the fact that

Also:

But those guys had to be strung up either for entrapped charges (Flynn)

Flynn's entrapment is a disgrace.

Flynn was acting as a foreign agent for Turkey, he discussed sanctions with Russia after he was named National Security Advisor but while Obama was still president, and then he lied about to the Vice President and the FBI.

He negotiated a plea deal with Mueller to cooperate in exchange for *only* being charged with lying to the FBI.

There's a decent argument that the case wasn't handled properly, and honestly I don't think he should serve time.  We're only talking about a few weeks tops and the guy dedicated his life to the military before getting caught up in politics and eventually cooperating with the investigation. 

But the narrative that they just tricked him into lying and that's how they got him is literally fake news and that article you linked which makes it seem like the only crime was lying to the fbi is a great example of Trumps friends spreading misinformation, and his supporters believing it. 

There has been a whole lot of that going on throughout the entire impeachment process, most of it doesn't even defend the president, but it's been successful enough, and repetitive enough that if you ask some loyal Trump supporters straight forward questions like 'do you think he use the money and WH visit to pressure Ukraine to announce an investigation into Biden?" the response might be about Clinton, or the DNC, or Comey, or just how stupid the dems are, or Hunter, or the whistle blower, or 'who cares even if he did, it's not impeachable'....but getting an actual answer is very unlikely since we all know he did it, but If you answer yes, then you'll have to think about why Trump lied about it over and over and over, and attacked all those people who said he did it.

[Spendulus]

...
But you think Flynn was 'entrapped'....

It's not exactly "me." I don't think about Flynn.

How about the Washington Post?

https://nypost.com/2020/01/31/the-flynn-prosecution-now-stands-exposed-as-massive-fbi-and-doj-abuse-of-power/

That's a New York Post editorial (a tabloid owned by Murdoch and the chief editor is Trumps personal friend Col Allan)

So who owns a newspaper discredits an article in it. That's certainly an interesting point of view...

But those guys had to be strung up either for entrapped charges (Flynn)

Flynn's entrapment is a disgrace.

Flynn was acting as a foreign agent for Turkey, he discussed sanctions with Russia after he was named National Security Advisor but while Obama was still president, and then he lied about to the Vice President and the FBI.

He negotiated a plea deal with Mueller to cooperate in exchange for *only* being charged with lying to the FBI.

There's a decent argument that the case wasn't handled properly, and honestly I don't think he should serve time.  We're only talking about a few weeks tops and the guy dedicated his life to the military before getting caught up in politics and eventually cooperating with the investigation.  

But the narrative that they just tricked him into lying and that's how they got him is literally fake news and that article you linked which makes it seem like the only crime was lying to the fbi is a great example of Trumps friends spreading misinformation, and his supporters believing it.  

There has been a whole lot of that going on throughout the entire impeachment process, most of it doesn't even defend the president, but it's been successful enough, and repetitive enough that if you ask some loyal Trump supporters straight forward questions like 'do you think he use the money and WH visit to pressure Ukraine to announce an investigation into Biden?" the response might be about Clinton, or the DNC, or Comey, or just how stupid the dems are, or Hunter, or the whistle blower, or 'who cares even if he did, it's not impeachable'....but getting an actual answer is very unlikely since we all know he did it, but If you answer yes, then you'll have to think about why Trump lied about it over and over and over, and attacked all those people who said he did it.

Why would your recitation of opinions be relevant? This is an issue being played out in courtrooms according to rules of evidence and procedure. I guess you could claim you are right, and the courtrooms are wrong?

The reasonable reason to think that Flynn was "entrapped" is because, that's simply what the FBI DOES. Standard operating procedure, a lot of cases. Sure, not all the time.

[Viper1]

The reasonable reason to think that Flynn was "entrapped" is because

In what way did they entrap him?

[Spendulus]

The reasonable reason to think that Flynn was "entrapped" is because

In what way did they entrap him?

Here is a general article on the matter. Note McCabe and Strzuk's involvement.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-flynn-entrapment-11544658915