Trump Impeachment Public Hearings [serious discussion]

[franky1]

to explain some of the trump defence disorganised rebuttles, ill use some analogies even 5yo can understand

if you have the flu you can have a cough, a fever, and a runny nose
this does not mean you have to have a cough to qualify to then be at risk of having a runny nose or fever
these things can happen independently of a cough

so that debunks the (,and) defence that has been said as the reason to not go through with the impeachment if he is already not in office
EG
cough, fever, and runny nose
removed, lose privilege, and not have future access

also the ambiguities of "president"
constitution says president, vice president and civil officer
it does not says 'current elected president only.

and by the way trump still holds office. he is still a civil officer. getting certain civil privilege
"office of former president"

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[squatz1]

Ah, did not know we were reusing this thread for the second impeachment but this works.

My view on this entire thing is that the defense of Trump is absolutely utetly laughable. It’s understandable that the defense is horrible though, given the fact that a lot of his previous lawyers didn’t want to represent him because they either didn’t want to anger establishment Republicans/Democrats who would blacklist them from future work OR they don’t want to defend this crime and think that it is indefensible.

None of this really matters though — we know that the votes aren’t there in the Senate already. 10 Republicans WILL NOT be joining Democrats in finding Trump guilty for impeachment.

This is a trial for the American people and convincing them to hold Republicans accountable for continuing to support Trump’s voter fraud claims.

We’ll see what the American people think about all of this, but it will take weeks / months to see a full image of polls that aren’t affected by this just being on the news all the time.

[franky1]

None of this really matters though — we know that the votes aren’t there in the Senate already. 10 Republicans WILL NOT be joining Democrats in finding Trump guilty for impeachment.

the votes are in. they voted yes. the impeachment is going to proceed.

[yes:56 - 44:no] - yes win (6 republicans were on the yes side)

trump does currently hold office:
"office of former president"
this makes him a civil officer and one of the categories of people that can be impeached.

The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States.

so yep he is going to be impeached.

due to having office and privileges he cant be easily charged as a citizen for criminal charges. hence the need for the impeachment process
once he has his office and privileges stripped. he can then have the police or district attorney knocking on his door with charges under criminal law.

now its a waiting game

[target]

None of this really matters though — we know that the votes aren’t there in the Senate already. 10 Republicans WILL NOT be joining Democrats in finding Trump guilty for impeachment.

the votes are in. they voted yes. the impeachment is going to proceed

He doesn't even have an office anymore. This is really strange, is this how they hated Trump?
When an impeachment proceeding goes on and eventually since Trump doesn't;t have influence anymore, he will lose and the penalty to him is to be removed from office?  

It could backfire one day that the previous president could still be impeached while not in office anymore.  My country has the funniest politics but I'm starting to see why Liberals in my country act the same way.

[franky1]

i edited my previous reply to include details you may have missed.
yes he does have an office. which makes him a civil officer. thus still impeachable

have a nice day, glad to clear up your misuderstanding

[TwitchySeal]

None of this really matters though — we know that the votes aren’t there in the Senate already. 10 Republicans WILL NOT be joining Democrats in finding Trump guilty for impeachment.

the votes are in. they voted yes. the impeachment is going to proceed

He doesn't even have an office anymore. This is really strange, is this how they hated Trump?
When an impeachment proceeding goes on and eventually since Trump doesn't;t have influence anymore, he will lose and the penalty to him is to be removed from office?  

It could backfire one day that the previous president could still be impeached while not in office anymore.  My country has the funniest politics but I'm starting to see why Liberals in my country act the same way.

Upon conviction the Senate can vote to make him ineligible to run for any political office again.

[squatz1]

None of this really matters though — we know that the votes aren’t there in the Senate already. 10 Republicans WILL NOT be joining Democrats in finding Trump guilty for impeachment.

the votes are in. they voted yes. the impeachment is going to proceed.

[yes:56 - 44:no] - yes win (6 republicans were on the yes side)

trump d
oes currently hold office:
"office of former president", this makes him a civil officer and one of the categories of people that can be impeached.

The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States.

so yep he is going to be impeached.

due to having office and privileges he cant be easily charged as a citizen for criminal charges. hence the need for the impeachment process
once he has his office and privileges stripped. he can then have the police or district attorney knocking on his door with charges under criminal law.

now its a waiting game

.....

Do you know the difference between bringing up charges in the House — Which has been done twice and passed twice

Declaring that the impeachment can proceed in the Senate is something totally different, which is a procedural vote that Rand Paul forced to gauge what the opinion of the party was looking like — the measured still passed, but there wasn’t enough votes there to remove the President (as you need 2/3 of the Senate to do so)

Not to say that if they had the 2/3 votes on the procedural measure then Trump would’ve been removed, as that isn’t how the procedural vote worked — but it would’ve shown that the votes are there to find him guilty, which there aren’t.

Now do you understand what I’m saying? If not I can try to be a bit more clear if it’s not already.

[franky1]

the current state of impeachment yesterday was about if the impeachment should go on. yesterdays vote was purely about that.

as i said.. the bit about the final 'verdict'.. is a waiting game.
i do know the difference but i was mentioning current event. not future speculation.

we had not even heard the main arguments about things that will affect the verdict result. so far yesterday the discussion was just the legitimacy and lawfulness of if the impeachment process should even proceed.

to discuss the details of the verdict possible result.. is a waiting game

translating..
impeachment is a charge.. not a verdict.
so yes they voted and trump is being impeached(charged) - current event

future speculation is the verdict and if/when hi is removed from 'office of former president', and or losing all privelige, and or losing future access to government office

if you want to skip ahead and speculate the verdict
so far the 2/3 which is out of 100 they got 56:44. so its not much more to get the verdict. they just need to convince 11 more(67:33)

many republicans that have been puppets by fear. can eleviate their fears of trump by making him lose office then he no longer has power over them. many republicans followed trump under fear.
they can easily free themselves.
republicans know trump has hurt the RNC. he has stolen $150m from the RNC. he has done nothing for the RNC. so they carry no political favour that trump will make their lives better if he remained in civil office/privilege

[squatz1]

the current state of impeachment yesterday was about if the impeachment should go on. yesterdays vote was purely about that.

as i said.. the bit about the final 'verdict'.. is a waiting game.
i do know the difference but i was mentioning current event. not future speculation.

we had not even heard the main arguments about things that will affect the verdict result. so far yesterday the discussion was just the legitimacy and lawfulness of if the impeachment process should even proceed.

to discuss the details of the verdict possible result.. is a waiting game

Pretty sure it’s not a waiting game at this point. I’d say that there is no way that you can flip 10 Republican senators to vote against Trump.

At the end of the day each one of these arguments are for the American people, NOT for the Senators, as they’ve already decided on party lines (minus a few) that they’re not going to find Trump guilty (in regards to the Republicans)

Doesn’t matter how this entire public trial goes b/c at the end of the day this is a political process that is determined by votes — not public opinion or what the media says.

[franky1]

if you asked me last year . i would have agreed the puppet loyalty would have strong ties.
but now trump has been demoted from president to civil officer.. some ties are cut. less republicans fear trump. less republicans feel the need for the ties.


this trial (that already voted to continue) is not a criminal trial to judge on prison time.
its a government business meeting to decide if trump should retain any business interest in the business of american politics
so politicians are the judge of this business decision. and so those that are begrudgingly tied to trump out of fear, know this is the best time to cut ties and be rid of trump puppeteering is now.

once decided on if/when to remove him from his current civil office role and remove all privileges associated. he is then just a normal citizen and it is then for the courts to decide if he should be arrested for a crime

so right now and for the rest of the week the only thing being decided is a business policy of if trump should continue to receive business privilege

..
its like education. a school board deciding if they should sack a teacher
its like healthcare. a hospital board deciding if they should strike a doctor off the medical licence register

after that. then the cops can swoop in and arrest the guy if the cops decide its a crime for the acts they did while in office

the senators are not acting like cops. they are acting like business board members deciding on the status of a demoted employee if that demoted employee should be fully removed from the business.


.
and just for interest sake
last week this was the layout of opinion on if impeachment should continue

democrats      unsure         republicans
saying yes      D      R        saying no

actual result        <| all these left of the line
as you can see.. only
〇35 republicans are vocally siding with trump. so it only takes 2 to swing into undecided. ◍
and then
◍17 undecided join the democrats at the verdict vote

so there is a actual possibility that trump can lose all privileges. especially if it only needs 2 strong puppets to cut their ties

[Gyfts]

The round two impeachment hearings are even better than the first!

https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1359565322056065028

This stuck out, maybe a poor choice of words from the gentleman from Texas, but for some reason I can think of something that's also a threat to democracy, like openly calling the 2016 election illegitimate and claiming the sitting US President was a Russian spy. Seems like democrats did a good job of convincing Americans that Trump was elected off an illegitimate election because he allegedly colluded with Russia, which turned out not to be true. Guess that's all fine and dandy.

So much unifying going on guys.

[TwitchySeal]

The round two impeachment hearings are even better than the first!

https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1359565322056065028

This stuck out, maybe a poor choice of words from the gentleman from Texas, but for some reason I can think of something that's also a threat to democracy, like openly calling the 2016 election illegitimate and claiming the sitting US President was a Russian spy. Seems like democrats did a good job of convincing Americans that Trump was elected off an illegitimate election because he allegedly colluded with Russia, which turned out not to be true. Guess that's all fine and dandy.

So much unifying going on guys.

The 2016 election wasn't called illegitimate, and they didn't accuse Trump of being a spy.
(I'm sure you can find someone that made those claims, but it wasn't what the democrats were claiming overall as a group)

[PrimeNumber7]

The round two impeachment hearings are even better than the first!

https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1359565322056065028

This stuck out, maybe a poor choice of words from the gentleman from Texas, but for some reason I can think of something that's also a threat to democracy, like openly calling the 2016 election illegitimate and claiming the sitting US President was a Russian spy. Seems like democrats did a good job of convincing Americans that Trump was elected off an illegitimate election because he allegedly colluded with Russia, which turned out not to be true. Guess that's all fine and dandy.

So much unifying going on guys.

The 2016 election wasn't called illegitimate and they didn't accuse Trump of being a spy.

Umm, many Democrats said that Trump was an illegitimate President, and said that Trump was Putin's puppet. Trump was doing the exact same thing that was done to him after the 2016 election, only he did not have the propaganda machine behind him to cause the same level of amplification.

[TwitchySeal]

The round two impeachment hearings are even better than the first!

https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1359565322056065028

This stuck out, maybe a poor choice of words from the gentleman from Texas, but for some reason I can think of something that's also a threat to democracy, like openly calling the 2016 election illegitimate and claiming the sitting US President was a Russian spy. Seems like democrats did a good job of convincing Americans that Trump was elected off an illegitimate election because he allegedly colluded with Russia, which turned out not to be true. Guess that's all fine and dandy.

So much unifying going on guys.

The 2016 election wasn't called illegitimate and they didn't accuse Trump of being a spy.

Umm, many Democrats said that Trump was an illegitimate President, and said that Trump was Putin's puppet. Trump was doing the exact same thing that was done to him after the 2016 election, only he did not have the propaganda machine behind him to cause the same level of amplification.

The election process was not called into question.  Hillary didn't say she got more votes.  (electoral votes, that is) There was a peaceful transition of power.  Being a puppet is not the same as being a spy.

If all of that had happened, it wouldn't justify what Trump did.

[PrimeNumber7]

The round two impeachment hearings are even better than the first!

https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1359565322056065028

This stuck out, maybe a poor choice of words from the gentleman from Texas, but for some reason I can think of something that's also a threat to democracy, like openly calling the 2016 election illegitimate and claiming the sitting US President was a Russian spy. Seems like democrats did a good job of convincing Americans that Trump was elected off an illegitimate election because he allegedly colluded with Russia, which turned out not to be true. Guess that's all fine and dandy.

So much unifying going on guys.

The 2016 election wasn't called illegitimate and they didn't accuse Trump of being a spy.

Umm, many Democrats said that Trump was an illegitimate President, and said that Trump was Putin's puppet. Trump was doing the exact same thing that was done to him after the 2016 election, only he did not have the propaganda machine behind him to cause the same level of amplification.

The election process was not called into question.  Hillary didn't say she got more votes.  (electoral votes, that is) There was a peaceful transition of power.  Being a puppet is not the same as being a spy.

If all of that had happened, it wouldn't justify what Trump did.

Hiliary said that she could "beat him again". Trump was spied on by the previous administration, and unfounded rumors were planted by the previous administration of being an agent of the Russian government.

Being a puppet is the same thing as being a spy, except maybe it is worse.

[Gyfts]

The round two impeachment hearings are even better than the first!

https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1359565322056065028

This stuck out, maybe a poor choice of words from the gentleman from Texas, but for some reason I can think of something that's also a threat to democracy, like openly calling the 2016 election illegitimate and claiming the sitting US President was a Russian spy. Seems like democrats did a good job of convincing Americans that Trump was elected off an illegitimate election because he allegedly colluded with Russia, which turned out not to be true. Guess that's all fine and dandy.

So much unifying going on guys.

The 2016 election wasn't called illegitimate, and they didn't accuse Trump of being a spy.
(I'm sure you can find someone that made those claims, but it wasn't what the democrats were claiming overall as a group)

How about the current speaker of the house claiming Trump colluded with Russia? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-jr-emails-russia-collusion-nancy-pelosi-lindsey-graham-republicans-democrats-response-latest-a7835991.html

You think she'd represent the democratic caucus. You also had Eric Swalwell, the guy who apparently banged a chinese spy, who said Trump was a foreign agent.

I'm sorry but no, dems do not get a pass on this one.

[franky1]

only he did not have the propaganda machine behind him to cause the same level of amplification.

sorry but i really have to address this point
you think trump didnt have an amplifier

.. um..
democrats mention trump a ilegitimate president. ..  no riot. no insurrection
republicans call biden an ilegitimate president... riots.. insurrection

seems trump had the propaganda amplifier on full. and caused many weak minds to bleed and go crazy

[TwitchySeal]

We've been through this guys.  I think I've literally addressed every point you two have just made.  (maybe I didn't, let's not argue about that either please)

I'm not putting any more effort into spoon feeding you the Mueller report.  It just takes too much effort to explain everything to you guys multiple times and there's really no reason you can't just read it yourself.  I'm happy to continue discussing it in another thread, but only if you put the effort required into understanding what is in the report.  That means reading the actual report, not media reports on the report.  The actual report:  https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf  (Ideally you should read most of Volume 1 with special attention to section IV, Volume 2 is all about obstruction.)

Lets try to keep this thread focused on things that are directly related to the trial for now.  I'm going to try to avoid the win/lose mentality better than I have the last few years and hopefully have more of a thoughtful discussion than a heated argument.

[dupeddonk]

I watched some of the coverage this week and man it was infuriating.  No doubt in my mind that Trump is responsible for what happened on Jan 6 even more than i thought before the trial began. the people that stormed the capital deserve to be held accoutnable for their disgusting actions but i consider most of them victims as well as they clearly believed what the president told them and thought they were doing the right thing.

it is still incredible to me how many people are able to believe the words trump says when they are just so obviously false and jan 6 we saw how dangerous that is. we have been seeing it for 4 years now. every failure as a president trump had resulted in trump making some crazy story up filled with lies to make him look like a victim and anyone who didnt believe the lies a villian.

he did it so many times that if you went step by step with him theres literally nobody left to believe except him.  you cant believe the media, or any journalist at all, or scientists, or military leaders, or other world leaders, or other politicians, only him.

and now even in this thread right now you guys are trying to defend him by repeating the things he said years ago.  wake up. the guy is a fraud.

[dupeddonk]

hes definitly going to get aquited but im glad they impeached him anyway.  the majority of our reps in both house and senate including from both repubs and dems will be on the record condeming his actions.

he deserves criminal consequences also but im not sure that will happen either.