REEE: Donald Trump Hasn't Yet Been Impeached. What's Next? [serious discussion]

[TECSHARE]

Since TwitchySeal can't engage in an actual debate without being able silence ideas he disagrees with, I thought I would post my replies to comments here. Perhaps people can engage in an actual debate this way, and not just have some childish club where leftists stand around and reassure each other of their correctitude, normalizing increasingly erratic behavior.

I am sure you would prefer the whole internet be sanitized from ideas you dislike like they do on Facebook and Twitter, but most of us don't...

OP(s):
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5200685.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5201316.0

Previous non-self-moderated thread here.

The public impeachment hearings start this week with one hearing on Wednesday and one on Friday.  It's going to be covered in full on pretty much every network and should be pretty easy to find a live stream.  They are hoping to wrap things up and call a vote to impeach by Christmas, but many expect it to take longer.


Wednesday, November 13

William Taylor
- West Point graduate, Vietnam Vet
- First appointed as Ambassador to Ukraine by GW Bush in 2006
- Appointed Special Coordinator for Middle East Transitions by Obama in 2011
- Came out of retirement last Spring when Trump appointed him as Ambassador to Ukraine. (Currently Ambassador to Ukraine)
- Transcript from closed hearing


George Kent
- Appointed under Trump as Deputy Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs on September 4, 2018
- Has worked for the State Department since 1992
- Transcript from closed hearing

Friday, November 15

Marie Yovanovitch
- Appointed as US Ambassador to Ukraine by Obama in 2016
- Fired by Trump last Spring
- Transcript from closed hearing

(will update when more hearings are scheduled)

We don't know exactly what the Democrats plan to focus on or how the Republicans plan on defending them, but here are a few likely scenarios:

Allegations
- Trump leveraged foreign aid worth ~$450m (weapons), that Congress approved to provide to Ukraine as well as a White House visit to pressure Ukraine into publicly announcing they would be opening an investigation into Hunter Biden and Joe Biden (his most likely challenger in the 2020 election) as well as the role the Democrats played in meddling in the 2016 election..  Using the power of the President (federal foreign aid) to attack your political rivals is an impeachable offense.
- Trump used his personal lawyer, Rudy Giulliani, to circumvent the Senate confirmed State Department Officials and speak on behalf of the President and Country.  
- Trump obstructed the Democrats investigation into the Ukraine/Biden/Trump investigation.

Defense
- Trump did not withhold foreign aid/White House visit in exchange for publicly announcing a Biden investigation . (There was no "quid pro quo").  The withholding of funds were not related to his request for Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.
- Trump did withhold foreign aid, but it was justified because he wanted to make sure that the US Government wasn't sending foreign aid to a corrupt country.  It had nothing to do with the fact the Biden was in position to be his most likely general election challenger in 2020.  Asking Ukraine to investigate the Democrats involvement in the 2016 election was also not politically motivated, his only motivation was to secure future elections.
- Trump did withhold foreign aid for political reasons and was wrong for doing so, but that's not an impeachable offense.


The House voted on a resolution that laid out the rules for these hearings on Oct. 31.  It passed 232 - 196, (232 democrats voted yes, 2 democrats and 194 republicans voted no).

- The hearings will be conducted by the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence led by Chairman Adam Schiff (d) and ranking member Devin Nunez.
- Schiff will be able to question each witness for 45 minutes straight, and then Nunez will do the same for another 45 minutes.
- All other members of the committee will then have 5 minutes to question the witness, alternating by Party.
- Each representative will be allowed to have a staff member question the witness instead of doing it themself.  
- The Republicans can subpoena or request witnesses only if the chairman approves.  The Republicans have had two witnesses rejected so far, Hunter Biden and the Anonymous whistle blower.



Local Rules:
- When you post, you must have a clear point. If you ramble on about nothing, then your post will be deleted.
- You must stay fairly close to the topic, the Public Impeachment Hearings.
- Don't be an asshole.  No personal attacks, name calling, tantrums, circular arguments.

I am just starting this thread here to have an open version of this discussion, since clearly TwitchySeal has trouble having conversations he can't entirely dictate the flow of. I would encourage you to post your replies to the quotes in his thread here to encourage open, uncensored discussion.

[TECSHARE]

And in 2018 we voted in Nancy Pelosi and a bunch of democrats that ran on impeaching the president.

Not trying to be confrontational.  But the whole "but he's the president" thing I think is pretty dangerous.  The president is not a King.  He's the head of 1 of the 3 co-equal branches of government.

You know what else is dangerous? Preventing The President of The United States from exercising his Constitutional authority using the guise of "investigations" and "checks and balances". This has become a pretty clear pattern now. It seems though any time investigations, checks, and balances swing the other way suddenly it is an outrage and an "obstruction" of some yet undefined and undocumented crime investigation. It is investigation after investigation revealing nothing and constantly churning out new baseless accusations of some crime looming just around the corner for 3 solid years. Checks and balances go both ways, and the legislative branch is demonstrably exceeding its authority.

[TECSHARE]

On break for Day 2 of hearings.  I wasn't able to watch it from the beginning, but Trump is having a bit of a melt down on Twitter, attacking Marie Yovanovitch mid testimony.

It was Obama that media suggested was looking and acting King-like, not Trump. It's only that Trump is not the King they'd wished for, right?

So there you have it. A bunch of sore losers who did get a Congressional majority advocating impeachment, for, whatever. And now they are scraping around in impeachment hearings looking for some plausible impeachable offense.

It really is that simple. And people see this and know it.

Meanwhile, exactly what real, useful work has the Democratic Congress done?

I don't think "Party A is better than Party B" is a valid argument, or even relevant, when it comes to whether or not a president should be impeached.  

Please don't mis represent my comments. "SORE LOSERS" is not synonymous to "BETTER"

This is  favorite tactic of Twitchy Seal and the left in general. Don't respond to the comment or question you actually made, but to the one you WISH was made in order to topic slide and create a logically fallacious defense for a topic you can't argue and wish to avoid. This is one of the main reasons the left require censorship to function, because an open discussion reveals how little logic is at the base of their arguments.

[Spendulus]

.......Please don't mis represent my comments. "SORE LOSERS" is not synonymous to "BETTER"

This is  favorite tactic of Twitchy Seal and the left in general. Don't respond to the comment or question you actually made, but to the one you WISH was made in order to topic slide and create a logically fallacious defense for a topic you can't argue and wish to avoid. This is one of the main reasons the left require censorship to function, because an open discussion reveals how little logic is at the base of their arguments.

Agreed. But I'm not convinced Twitch is at the radical end of the line like blue* and hell*.

[TECSHARE]

.......Please don't mis represent my comments. "SORE LOSERS" is not synonymous to "BETTER"

This is  favorite tactic of Twitchy Seal and the left in general. Don't respond to the comment or question you actually made, but to the one you WISH was made in order to topic slide and create a logically fallacious defense for a topic you can't argue and wish to avoid. This is one of the main reasons the left require censorship to function, because an open discussion reveals how little logic is at the base of their arguments.

Agreed. But I'm not convinced Twitch is at the radical end of the line like blue* and hell*.

Twitchy Seal thinks the ends justify the means. When you stand for nothing, you fall for anything. That type is just as dangerous because there are so many so eager to believe anything as long as it works for their preferred belief system bias. That's the problem with true believers, they are convinced they are fighting for whats right so much they blind themselves to the fact that they are the vehicle of that destruction they claim to be fighting.

[Spendulus]

....
Twitchy Seal thinks the ends justify the means. When you stand for nothing, you fall for anything. ....

But is he buying the next round of beers?

It's quite interesting that Twitch has presented a thread as if it were real, about something that's only considered real in a subset of circles of discussion. He proposes to keep discussion serious, about the one ring circus. Regardless of where and on who the animals Schiff****.

[bluefirecorp_]

herp derp retarded people throwing retarded ideas out. derp herp.

If yall could actually have an actual conversation with you know, sourced information from reality instead of shit out of your assholes, you wouldn't have your comments deleted.

But instead, shit from assholes = required to post. And then whine when other people remove the shit.

inb4 this post is removed too.

[TECSHARE]

herp derp retarded people throwing retarded ideas out. derp herp.

If yall could actually have an actual conversation with you know, sourced information from reality instead of shit out of your assholes, you wouldn't have your comments deleted.

But instead, shit from assholes = required to post. And then whine when other people remove the shit.

inb4 this post is removed too.

Why would anyone delete this golden evidence of the kind of mind that justifies totalitarian censorship?

[Spendulus]

herp derp retarded people throwing retarded ideas out. derp herp.

If yall could actually have an actual conversation with you know, sourced information from reality instead of shit out of your assholes, you wouldn't have your comments deleted.

But instead, shit from assholes = required to post. And then whine when other people remove the shit.

inb4 this post is removed too.

Why would anyone delete this golden evidence of the kind of mind that justifies totalitarian censorship?

I'm good as long as they don't mention subpoe—

[TECSHARE]

I think these are pretty insane to look at for a second. 45 percent of Americans (which is a large portion of Americans) think that the Impeachment inquiry should end right now. That's pretty much all the support that a President needs to win the electoral college in the modern time. This is without a doubt why Trump thinks he's going to be able to win with just his base, some Republicans, and a couple indys to win.

Yes I do know there is the other half -- the 55 percent of Americans that think this should proceed. But I EXPECTED the 'should this proceed' question to be at least 70-30 and maybe support for impeachment to be around the ballpark of 50-50. But this is pretty crazy to truly look at.

Shows that there is truly a silent portion of the population that does support this President, and doesn't really care about the wrongs he commits. We'll see in the coming days, weeks, months if that is going to hold.

Either that or they don't see any evidence of wrong doing, and see the left flailing frantically to try to create a scandal before 2020 because it is their only hope.

[BADecker]

I think these are pretty insane to look at for a second. 45 percent of Americans (which is a large portion of Americans) think that the Impeachment inquiry should end right now. That's pretty much all the support that a President needs to win the electoral college in the modern time. This is without a doubt why Trump thinks he's going to be able to win with just his base, some Republicans, and a couple indys to win.

Yes I do know there is the other half -- the 55 percent of Americans that think this should proceed. But I EXPECTED the 'should this proceed' question to be at least 70-30 and maybe support for impeachment to be around the ballpark of 50-50. But this is pretty crazy to truly look at.

Shows that there is truly a silent portion of the population that does support this President, and doesn't really care about the wrongs he commits. We'll see in the coming days, weeks, months if that is going to hold.

Either that or they don't see any evidence of wrong doing, and see the left flailing frantically to try to create a scandal before 2020 because it is their only hope.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, you are our only hope.     

[Spendulus]

I think these are pretty insane to look at for a second. 45 percent of Americans (which is a large portion of Americans) think that the Impeachment inquiry should end right now. That's pretty much all the support that a President needs to win the electoral college in the modern time. This is without a doubt why Trump thinks he's going to be able to win with just his base, some Republicans, and a couple indys to win.

Yes I do know there is the other half -- the 55 percent of Americans that think this should proceed. But I EXPECTED the 'should this proceed' question to be at least 70-30 and maybe support for impeachment to be around the ballpark of 50-50. But this is pretty crazy to truly look at.

Shows that there is truly a silent portion of the population that does support this President, and doesn't really care about the wrongs he commits. We'll see in the coming days, weeks, months if that is going to hold.

Either that or they don't see any evidence of wrong doing, and see the left flailing frantically to try to create a scandal before 2020 because it is their only hope.

Who knows? Maybe it's headed for a Bimbo Explosion.

Oh wait... That was Bill Clinton...

[TECSHARE]

Wait...

So now there's an actual "Ukraine Scandal?"

I learned something today.

Have they decided what is in the box labeled Ukraine Scandal?

Let's keep this as a serious discussion thread.  I'd like to respond to you seriously, but it's clear your questions aren't serious.

Please don't take this as an attack on you, it's nothing personal, but knock it off with the passive aggressive/bad faith arguments.  There are plenty of other threads for that.

If you have a point to make, just make it.

Yeah! Keep it serious! By the way disagreeing with things I believe I don't consider to be at all serious, so you better watch it and get in line or I will be forced to use my totalitarian censorshi... I mean moderating a serious discussion abilities.

I don't mean silent in the sense that they keep all their views to themselves, I say silent in the sense that they keep to themselves. They're not going to be out in the streets protesting, they're not going to be on social media talking about things, they're not those types of people. They're going to impose their will at the 2020 pres election.

Also in regards to the polling shift : We're not going to know if this is a temporary bump until a few weeks / months from now. It could normalize if nothing comes out of this or the GOP is able to spin it well.

We'll see.

Why would they be silent? Oh right the left are violent lunatics who attack, harass, and assault people who don't think like they do and agree with their beliefs. It is intolerance of intolerance though, so its ok.

[TECSHARE]

Has anyone figured out what the charges for impeachment might be? For a long time it was supposed to be Russia Collusion, but I heard that was gone. Then I heard it was going to be Tit-For-Tat, but that's been not mentioned for some time now.

It's pretty clear they are primarily trying to impeach him for abusing his power to influence the election.  Are you really only paying attention to media sources that point out why he shouldn't be impeached?

They will probably tack on a couple obstruction articles for ordering everyone he can to not cooperate and also attacking the witness on twitter last week mid-testimony. 

I am glad you think impeachment is the kind of act that is on the level of a cop putting his thumb on the scale as he weighs out a couple joints for his report. The reason obstruction is a favorite charge levied by the democrats is because it is it is a process charge that is extremely ambiguous and very harshly punished. The sort of crime that you can convict some one of saying they had a ham sandwich at 2:15 when it was really 2:13. You abduct the target under color of law, scare the shit out of them (usually in front of their family), you then grill them with thousands of questions over and over and over again for hours and days, recording the entire process so you can review it later for any inconsistencies which could be construed as a deceit not matter how innocent, and prosecuted with felony prison time. It is right up the Demgulag's alley. Especially when you don't have any evidence of crimes, it is the easiest way to invent them.

[BADecker]

Witnesses and subpoenas might not be needed. Oh, I guess they will be, after all.


EXCLUSIVE – President Trump makes unscheduled stop at military hospital to undergo battery of tests for possible deliberate poisoning of food with “time delayed” chemical agent; food tester gravely ill – White House connected source

The President’s unscheduled stop at the Walter Reed military hospital on Saturday involved a battery of tests to determine whether the President was exposed to a chemical agent that is suspected of being introduced into his food, says a White House connected source who shared detailed with Alex Jones of InfoWars.com.

“Medical staff at Walter Reed did not get a staff-wide notice about a presidential visit to the medical center in Bethesda, Maryland, ahead of Trump’s arrival, according to that source,” reports Fox59.com. “Typically, Walter Reed’s medical staff would get a general notice about a “VIP” visit to the medical center ahead of a presidential visit, notifying them of certain closures at the facility. That did not happen this time, indicating the visit was a non-routine visit and scheduled last minute.”

This action was initiated by the sudden onset of symptoms experienced by the President’s food tester, who was reported stricken with such severe symptoms that urgent medical tests were conducted on that that person while the President was diverted to Walter Reed for a priority medical examination involving a battery of chemical tests.

“The President’s motorcade drove to the medical center unannounced, with reporters under direction not to report his movement until they arrived Saturday at Walter Reed.,” reports Fox59. “A separate source familiar with the situation described Trump’s visit as ‘abnormal,’ but added that Trump, 73, appeared to be in good health late Friday.”

[Spendulus]

Has anyone figured out what the charges for impeachment might be? For a long time it was supposed to be Russia Collusion, but I heard that was gone. Then I heard it was going to be Tit-For-Tat, but that's been not mentioned for some time now.

It's pretty clear they are primarily trying to impeach him for abusing his power to influence the election.  Are you really only paying attention to media sources that point out why he shouldn't be impeached?

They will probably tack on a couple obstruction articles for ordering everyone he can to not cooperate and also attacking the witness on twitter last week mid-testimony. 

I am glad you think impeachment is the kind of act that is on the level of a cop putting his thumb on the scale as he weighs out a couple joints for his report. The reason obstruction is a favorite charge ....

I think that normal Democrats were all taken over by an Impeach Leech, which wormed it's way out of flying saucers and attached itself with suckers to each Democrat's back, drilling through to the spinal column to effect full control on the spineless.

Some of these alien creatures early on attempted to attach to and control Repubs but found their blood repugnant.

Some of the Leeches have become very fat and happy, for example the one on Bernie Sanders.

[BADecker]

^^^ But Bernie started paying his people $15 per hour! What does the Bernie leech have to say about that?

[Spendulus]

^^^ But Bernie started paying his people $15 per hour! What does the Bernie leech have to say about that?

The good socialist is all about giving, and taking. Talking about giving to you if you give him power, and then using that power to take from you after the election.

[TECSHARE]

So the original source of that Biden article is on Interfax-Ukraine... A news site owned by the Russian company Interfax. Interesting thing is that the story seems to have comes from MP Derkach. He seems to be tagged on that site for a variety of similar things about Biden that seemed to have started in, big surprise, October. Just a tad suspect given he's all of a sudden making these sorts of statements. As far as I can tell, his family has been part of the "power structure" there for a long time.

Yeah that's so weird people report on topical subjects in a timely manner. Definitely suspect.

[TECSHARE]

....

The whole "Biden didn't want Burisma to be investigated" is a false narrative.

Are you sure about that?

Yes. The Burisma investigation, which stems from incidents that occurred before Hunter Biden ever had anything to do with it, had been shelved by the time Shokin was removed as prosecutor. Just because Hunter Biden was on the board of a potentially corrupt company it doesn't mean he knew it was corrupt or played any role in furthering its corruption, despite whatever Quickseller or PrimeNumber7 has to say about it.

What about what The State Department has to say about it?

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/state-department-releases-detailed-accounts-biden-ukraine-corruption