scam scare

[DireWolfM14]

I think a high ranking, green trusted, DT2 member tried to scam me this past Thursday, but I don't really have definitive proof.

The Other Member (lets call him TOM,) sent me a PM asking me to connect with him on Telegram, which I did.  The discussion was about a prospective loan client who wanted a loan that TOM was unable to fill.  He asked if I could fill it, and since collateral was offered, I agreed to do so.  TOM started a discussion with the client, and then things got weird.  At some point it struck me that this might be a phishing attempt, but I continued along because I wasn't 100% sure (and I'm curious.)

TOM and the client wanted me to send the bitcoin to TOM's address first, which was to be followed by by the collateral being sent to me.  Then TOM was to forward the loan to the client.  This was a deal breaker for me, there was no way I was going to send first but I tried to appease the client by pointing him to  my lending thread, providing a PGP signed message including the collateral address, and message signed with the address holding the coin.  I even sent dust to the address TOM provided, to prove I had the coin.

About that address; I asked TOM to send me a signed message on the forum with the address to which I was supposed send the bitcoin.  He sent me an address on Telegram, ignoring my requests to send it through the forum and include a signed message.  The request for a signed message was made and ignored three times.  The address had never been used before, and of course no reference to that address was found in a google search.  Shortly after that I backed out.

I have exported the discussions from Telegram, but as you know these could easily be faked or modified which is why I say I don't have definitive proof.  Of course I did not modify them, and I have them stored in a way that may help some day.

Once I started getting uneasy about the scenario it occurred to me that TOM's account might have been hacked, and it was possible the hacker sent me the original PM.  There are no recent password changes on TOM's account, but hackers have been known to sneak into people's accounts, and send PMs to unsuspecting member phishing for a scam.  So I gave TOM the benefit of the doubt.  I sent my own PM to TOM, pretending that I lost his Telegram address, and asked that he resend it.  The next morning I found a reply from TOM confirming the same Telegram address with which I had the discussion the previous night.  This isn't to say that the account has not changed hands, or been hacked, but it does seem to confirm that whoever is in control of TOM's account is the same person I communicated with on Telegram Thursday.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a he-said/they-said drama by claiming some one is a potential scammer if I'm just being sensitive.  And I certainly don't want to ruin someone's reputation if I'm wrong.  But, most critically, If my hunch is right I don't want this guy scamming someone if I could do something about it.  There were a lot of red flags during the discussion, and it behooves us all the recognize them.


1) Don't trust someone's rank.
2) Don't go by trust scores, verify their ratings and reasons behind them.
3) Insist on critical information be sent here on the forum, where you can verify and prove the contact.
4) Insist on signed messages if you are to send first in any trade.
5) Just because someone appears trustworthy here, doesn't mean they will be outside the forum.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You were smart to back out of the deal, because it sounds fishy as hell to me.

I don't know what other members think about this, but I think you ought to identify TOM and invite him to explain himself in this thread--no negative trust needs to be given, but you're right about the potential of someone else getting scammed if that's what's going on here (and I'm not saying it is).  I did much the same thing a couple of years ago with gameristo, because I had doubts about him using multiple PayPal accounts.  I had enough doubt in my mind to question it in public but I wasn't willing to go so far as to neg him, and regardless of those PayPal accounts he's always been honest with me.

1) Don't trust someone's rank.
2) Don't go by trust scores, verify their ratings and reasons behind them.

These two points are something all noobs should learn as soon as they register here, because accounts get sold, hacked, and even senior members with green trust can and have pulled off scams.  You just never know for sure who you're dealing with.  Your other points which I didn't quote are valid as well.

[Vispilio]

Not sure if it would have helped in this case, which sounds fishy I agree, but I believe in general there can be great benefits if the forum also appoints a few "official" escrows (similar to the treasurer position) and that message gets pinned somewhere, and so anyone who wants to do a transaction above a certain threshold amount can point the counterparty to that message, so all these send first / second dramas can be avoided...

In my experience, many people conducting trades are even ambivalent about trusting escrows now, especially when suggested by the counterparty, as the trust system also has a lot of subjectively biased aspects to it...

[Steamtyme]

Good job listening to your spidey senses.
Not sure what it is about this week, but you may have almost joined a group of people who know better getting scammed. I am going to agree with TP on this that you should point TOM to this thread to discuss/offer up an explanation. Personally when something shady happens people need to speak up, to prevent potential losses down the line. Seeing as you are a Lender in your own right, it should have ended at them coming directly to you with no middleman involved, once you provided that information. Hell if the Loan was successful you could have tossed TOM some commission or something; neither here nor there. Just a possible scenario why there was no need for there to be a middleman in this deal.

I wouldn't worry about being wrong. Someone brought you a shady deal, refused to sign messages to verify their account inline with forum practices. There is no harm in having them come here and offer up their side of the story. If it's above board it's nothing more than a deal you weren't comfortable with and everyone moves on.

[KTChampions]

DireWolfM14

You acted very correctly that you were disciplined and did not enter into a deal on terms that initially seemed favorable.
I hope I don’t hurt anyone, but I think that all your points can be reduced to one thing: do not trust anyone.
Everyone saw many examples (both in life and on the forum) when a person with a potential profit (from scamming) of $ 1000 was honest, but at $ 100k he already spat on principles.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a he-said/they-said drama by claiming some one is a potential scammer if I'm just being sensitive.  And I certainly don't want to ruin someone's reputation if I'm wrong.  But, most critically, If my hunch is right I don't want this guy scamming someone if I could do something about it.

The most effective solution to the issue is its public discussion, but I perfectly understand your unwillingness to enter into a clarification of relations and the attached drama.
There are many different nuances and it is not clear how to do the right thing. It’s possible (if Tom deceives someone) then you will blame yourself (for inaction), or vice versa if a rational explanation of his behavior is found out, then you will blame yourself (for action) for the attempt on his reputation.

[LoyceV]

a loan that TOM was unable to fill.

How much was asked for?

TOM and the client wanted me to send the bitcoin to TOM's address first, which was to be followed by by the collateral being sent to me.

This should always be a red flag. It's only collateral if you have it first, or if it's in the hands of a trusted escrow.

The request for a signed message was made and ignored three times.

I'd say you should tag the account. You may not have definite proof, but from your story you're convinced it's either a scam attempt, or a compromised account. Both scenarios deserve a tag. The lack of evidence might not be enough for others to tag TOM too, but should be enough for your own tag.

[eddie13]

This is why I like deals discussed and agreed upon in open transparent threads, not in PMs, and much less on Telegram..
The redundant formalities seen in lending threads of a formal loan request, a formal contract offer, and a formal agreement to the contract by both parties before any coin or collateral are sent, is great protection for both parties because then everyone can see exactly what the contract is and that both parties agreed to it..

I refuse offers to migrate to Telegram from Bitcointalk.. That in itself is a huge red flag according to me..
I have done deals on telegram but only when it started on Telegram in the first place, and have offered to use BTCT escrow from Telegram, not the other way around..

The only time I have ever been scammed in Crypto was on YIM taken there from the Cryptsy trollbox long before I ever registered an account on BTCT, and learned my lesson.. Was like a $30 amazon gift card I was trying to sell for BTC and got ripped off.. Oh well..


I don't think that ALL cases of refusing to accept escrow, or refusal to deal on your legit terms, is proper grounds for a tag, but can be, and are often 100% suspicious..

Your case does sound extremely suspicious like they were trying to scam you, and if you have any reason to believe that they are also targeting others with this possible scam attempt, maybe you should bring awareness of it to the community..
It does sound like a somewhat sophisticated scam attempt aiming at a big target..

[Deathwing]

Neut-neg trust the account. Also, flagging might help too. Their account might be compromised without their knowledge and someone might be sending PMs (and have turned off PM notifications for received ones) and deleting them afterwards. The accused can sign a message from their staked address or PGP if they have any to clear themselves.

[tmfp]

...
The Other Member.. sent me a PM asking me to connect with him on Telegram
...

Stop right there.

[DaveF]

Agree with what everyone else said.
If you red trust the account you can always remove it if you were wrong.

If they don't know they were compromised, then it's another way to reach them. Or let someone know IRL that there is an issue.

I'm a perfect example, there are at least 3 people on this board who have my cell #. If something was off with my account I would like to think that if they saw it at least ONE of them would send me a text or call.

-Dave

[DireWolfM14]

How much was asked for?

The offer was for 55 LTC as collateral, which calculated to 0.313 BTC.  I never saw proof of the collateral, but since I wasn't willing to send first, I didn't ask for proof.

I'd say you should tag the account. You may not have definite proof, but from your story you're convinced it's either a scam attempt, or a compromised account. Both scenarios deserve a tag. The lack of evidence might not be enough for others to tag TOM too, but should be enough for your own tag.

I was thinking a neutral tag would be appropriate, since I didn't really get scammed.  Although I did send the dust to his address, which is yet to be returned (I offered to pay the Tx fees.)  I have asked TOM to respond here here and address this thread if he wants.  I would rather wait for his response (or lack of) before tagging him.

The Other Member.. sent me a PM asking me to connect with him on Telegram

Stop right there.

I must admit I find Telegram to be quite convenient for some discussions.  I've used it to communicate with other members of the forum without issue.

[condoras]

I think a high ranking, green trusted, DT2 member tried to scam me this past Thursday, but I don't really have definitive proof.

The Other Member (lets call him TOM,) sent me a PM asking me to connect with him on Telegram, which I did.  The discussion was about a prospective loan client who wanted a loan that TOM was unable to fill.  He asked if I could fill it, and since collateral was offered, I agreed to do so.  TOM started a discussion with the client, and then things got weird.  At some point it struck me that this might be a phishing attempt, but I continued along because I wasn't 100% sure (and I'm curious.)

TOM and the client wanted me to send the bitcoin to TOM's address first, which was to be followed by by the collateral being sent to me.  Then TOM was to forward the loan to the client.  This was a deal breaker for me, there was no way I was going to send first but I tried to appease the client by pointing him to  my lending thread, providing a PGP signed message including the collateral address, and message signed with the address holding the coin.  I even sent dust to the address TOM provided, to prove I had the coin.

About that address; I asked TOM to send me a signed message on the forum with the address to which I was supposed send the bitcoin.  He sent me an address on Telegram, ignoring my requests to send it through the forum and include a signed message.  The request for a signed message was made and ignored three times.  The address had never been used before, and of course no reference to that address was found in a google search.  Shortly after that I backed out.

I have exported the discussions from Telegram, but as you know these could easily be faked or modified which is why I say I don't have definitive proof.  Of course I did not modify them, and I have them stored in a way that may help some day.

Once I started getting uneasy about the scenario it occurred to me that TOM's account might have been hacked, and it was possible the hacker sent me the original PM.  There are no recent password changes on TOM's account, but hackers have been known to sneak into people's accounts, and send PMs to unsuspecting member phishing for a scam.  So I gave TOM the benefit of the doubt.  I sent my own PM to TOM, pretending that I lost his Telegram address, and asked that he resend it.  The next morning I found a reply from TOM confirming the same Telegram address with which I had the discussion the previous night.  This isn't to say that the account has not changed hands, or been hacked, but it does seem to confirm that whoever is in control of TOM's account is the same person I communicated with on Telegram Thursday.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a he-said/they-said drama by claiming some one is a potential scammer if I'm just being sensitive.  And I certainly don't want to ruin someone's reputation if I'm wrong.  But, most critically, If my hunch is right I don't want this guy scamming someone if I could do something about it.  There were a lot of red flags during the discussion, and it behooves us all the recognize them.


1) Don't trust someone's rank.
2) Don't go by trust scores, verify their ratings and reasons behind them.
3) Insist on critical information be sent here on the forum, where you can verify and prove the contact.
4) Insist on signed messages if you are to send first in any trade.
5) Just because someone appears trustworthy here, doesn't mean they will be outside the forum.

Well it seems like the TOM guy is me, because i contact DW for a loan that i couldnt fill about 55 LTC!
Some things though here is very innaccurate like that i want to scam (!!!)  DW. So let's take things step by step:

1: I get a message from a guy who has a username with another member here in TG. I saw it so i figure that probably was the same person, which now i really dought. He write to me that he wants a loan on BTC or ETH. So far so good from my side, the problem though was that i havent in my hot wallet the amount that this guy asked. https://imgur.com/bYrJT37.

2: Because of my recent loss due i fall to a scam site, i think to contact another "fellow" lender around that can probably fill it or cooperate with me on it. So i keep talking with the client and explain things, like how much collateral must have etc.  The guy though vanish for a while. https://imgur.com/R349Oxm

3: At that time i contact DW since he is one of the members here and especialy in Lending section that i believe he is trusted enough. I didn't say to him though that i want ANY kind of amount from this deal (lending funds or collateral funds) in my wallets. So for bettet communication i make a group with the 3 of us,. Client (Warum the "name"), me and DW.
In this chat i specificaly said that the collateral funds will be held by DW and NOT ME. https://imgur.com/FkPnNUT
Why? But because if i cant fill it all then i preffer the other part/ cooperateror/ time partner not to EVEN think that i'm tring to do whatever. Think DW miss this msg...

4. The group chat ended with the agreement to chat again the next day at 14:00' CET. https://imgur.com/3dt8P8j
Due my health problems (for sometime now, some members here knows about it) i was unable to loggin at that time, so i missed the meeting and i get on it later. Then i see that Warum delete his account... I check group chat and no new msg and Warum was missing from the group.
 
Instead i have a msg from DW asking me where to send the funds (!) and i was very surpise by that since we didnt say that i will get ANY KIND OF FUNDS from either of them (DW and Warum) and i ask him about what funds he is talking about. https://imgur.com/dk9zniP

My question to DW and to all others who see it as a scam try is this: Why to do this since i didnt ask any amount of funds and the only % that i want to take was the escrow fee, IF any escrow fee occured. Nothing more and nothing less. Perhaps the thing that i dont want to loss possible clients, seems too much. But we all know that having clients with a valid collateral is more than rare these days and thats why any income will do, at least for me.

I also dont want to write more than i can or to see this as an act of drama but it will be good/ better to talk before you judge so easilly.
And no, my name is not Tom!

EDIT: P.S I'm not mention the fact that i never say to DW to send first, in any case. I'm being in Lending so much time to say something like this...

[suchmoon]

EDIT: P.S I'm not mention the fact that i never say to DW to send first, in any case. I'm being in Lending so much time to say something like this...

This doesn't match DW's side of the story and I'm more inclined to believe him. According to him (and backed by chat logs) you requested the funds to be sent to you, and that BTC would be sent first, LTC collateral later.

[condoras]

EDIT: P.S I'm not mention the fact that i never say to DW to send first, in any case. I'm being in Lending so much time to say something like this...

This doesn't match DW's side of the story and I'm more inclined to believe him. According to him (and backed by chat logs) you requested the funds to be sent to you, and that BTC would be sent first, LTC collateral later.

What chat logs? Can you please show me the msg that i say that any funds to be sent to me?!
You may even consider the fact some other with similar name with mine to contact DW and told him whatever? That the only logic possibility that i can think off since i dont ask ANYTHING FROM ANYONE.

[DireWolfM14]

Well it seems like the TOM guy is me, because i contact DW for a loan that i couldnt fill about 55 LTC!
Some things though here is very innaccurate like that i want to scam (!!!)  DW. So let's take things step by step:

1: I get a message from a guy who has a username with another member here in TG. I saw it so i figure that probably was the same person, which now i really dought. He write to me that he wants a loan on BTC or ETH. So far so good from my side, the problem though was that i havent in my hot wallet the amount that this guy asked. https://imgur.com/bYrJT37.

2: Because of my recent loss due i fall to a scam site, i think to contact another "fellow" lender around that can probably fill it or cooperate with me on it. So i keep talking with the client and explain things, like how much collateral must have etc.  The guy though vanish for a while. https://imgur.com/R349Oxm

3: At that time i contact DW since he is one of the members here and especialy in Lending section that i believe he is trusted enough. I didn't say to him though that i want ANY kind of amount from this deal (lending funds or collateral funds) in my wallets. So for bettet communication i make a group with the 3 of us,. Client (Warum the "name"), me and DW.
In this chat i specificaly said that the collateral funds will be held by DW and NOT ME. https://imgur.com/FkPnNUT
Why? But because if i cant fill it all then i preffer the other part/ cooperateror/ time partner not to EVEN think that i'm tring to do whatever. Think DW miss this msg...

4. The group chat ended with the agreement to chat again the next day at 14:00' CET. https://imgur.com/3dt8P8j
Due my health problems (for sometime now, some members here knows about it) i was unable to loggin at that time, so i missed the meeting and i get on it later. Then i see that Warum delete his account... I check group chat and no new msg and Warum was missing from the group.
 
Instead i have a msg from DW asking me where to send the funds (!) and i was very surpise by that since we didnt say that i will get ANY KIND OF FUNDS from either of them (DW and Warum) and i ask him about what funds he is talking about. https://imgur.com/dk9zniP

My question to DW and to all others who see it as a scam try is this: Why to do this since i didnt ask any amount of funds and the only % that i want to take was the escrow fee, IF any escrow fee occured. Nothing more and nothing less. Perhaps the thing that i dont want to loss possible clients, seems too much. But we all know that having clients with a valid collateral is more than rare these days and thats why any income will do, at least for me.

I also dont want to write more than i can or to see this as an act of drama but it will be good/ better to talk before you judge so easilly.
And no, my name is not Tom!

EDIT: P.S I'm not mention the fact that i never say to DW to send first, in any case. I'm being in Lending so much time to say something like this...

First I want to say that I appreciate you responding, which I feel is a big step for taking accountability.

Second, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with your assessment of the situation.  I did back up the chat-log, and I'll post links for everyone to see.  At this point I think it's fair for the community to decide.

Here are my back-ups from Telegram.  I've included a signature for the Zip file.

Zip file with the Telegram conversations:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VRSaHgAYds2aJhIz-gz89bXCaQDdGU0X

PGP signature for the zip file:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MX1rfff7C3hyqS8I25j0bf7lXXvLrmZ8

[condoras]

Sorry but i can't see any of them. Can you please post them as a link?

[suchmoon]

What chat logs? Can you please show me the msg that i say that any funds to be sent to me?!

I m also active more 1h so i guees we will finish this tonight
As Mr Warum ask he demand you sending BTC to my wallet, he check txid, than he send collateral to you.this is totally fine for me , but say me Dire is this okay with you?
I understand him as its high value but we are old loaners and btctalk members, anyway Warum i think this should be not problem but wait for Dire to come back

Your message or not?

Or this one:

But only when ltc have all confirmation i will release btc to you Warum

Is this your address: 1s1yBtD16SurC1x8QAWnQswwnT5oS6fAd

[DireWolfM14]

Sorry but i can't see any of them. Can you please post them as a link?

The "client" account in Telegram has been deleted, but the conversions are still there.  The files I posted are the backups, you'll have to download the zip file, and extract the conversation from the directories included.

[Archive]

[condoras]

What chat logs? Can you please show me the msg that i say that any funds to be sent to me?!

I m also active more 1h so i guees we will finish this tonight
As Mr Warum ask he demand you sending BTC to my wallet, he check txid, than he send collateral to you.this is totally fine for me , but say me Dire is this okay with you?
I understand him as its high value but we are old loaners and btctalk members, anyway Warum i think this should be not problem but wait for Dire to come back

Your message or not?

Yes i message him after he message me. That includes Warum (client). If you mean if this msg send by me, no i didnt send any msg like this one.


I did but i don't see pics or the msgs itself. Can you make a pic of the msg that i say to you to send me the funds first?

EDIT: Sorry for the edit's.

[condoras]

Is this your address: 1s1yBtD16SurC1x8QAWnQswwnT5oS6fAd

No its not.

EDIT: @DW: Is there any way to take a pic from the account that name itself like me and send you anything related to this? Because it happen again in the past and i believe that this is the case here as well.