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Author Topic: Have a 220V 30 AMP circuit, running S17E :Can i still use 14 gauge 5-15p cables?  (Read 188 times)
AESyn (OP)
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November 19, 2019, 10:05:25 PM
Last edit: November 20, 2019, 03:18:52 AM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (3), Heisenberg_Hunter (1)
 #1

I have a 220V box with 30 AMP breaker.

However, they lead to standard 5-15P outlets. The electrician ran 10 gauge wire to the breaker from the outlets he installed. The electrician said its ok, just don't plug 110V stuff on there.

Is it really safe to use the 5-15P cables as long as they are 15 AMP capable and 14 Gauge? Like these?

https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Computer-IEC-320-C13-P007-006/dp/B0027JRMD0/

The cables say its for 120V BUT the specs indicate it can handle 15 AMPS with 14 gauge wiring inside.

I'm powering an S17E Antminer and @ 2880 Watts it might be pulling 13 AMPS total on both plugs, so I'm assuming each cable should only be pulling 6.5 or so AMPS?
So are the cables in the link above OK to use for the S17E? Remember, my circuit breaker is giving me 220V with a 30 AMP breaker.

I'm running 2 S9 Antminers now on it, but I'll be adding an S17E soon:

1 S17E normal mode  13 AMPS
2 S9 Antminers in Low Power mode. 6 + 6 AMPS (These are using the 14 gauge 15 AMP capable cables shown above)

I'm assuming it'll be OK for the S17E since the S9's been running for months with no downtime.

Doing the calculations, it should be close to the 80% rule. Pulling 25 AMPS altogether when the S17E comes in next week.

What do you guys think?
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November 19, 2019, 11:05:15 PM
Merited by frodocooper (3)
 #2

Red tag and mark every thing. As 220 volt. As it is not safe to use 120 volt equipment.  It is mechanical sound as the t17e will pull 1500 watts to each socket. You must use two wires to make it work.  My concern is the receptacle not the wire use.

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November 20, 2019, 05:19:52 AM
Merited by frodocooper (3)
 #3

I'd be a little cautious: For example suppose the Antminer power supply explodes inside and dead shorts the input. Now you have 30 amps of current being sourced by your breaker and delivered by 14 gauge wires rated at 15a to the shorted out Antminer.

Will the cable catch fire before the breaker pops? Maybe.....

An extreme example of this process can be found in mining farms where they ran 1,000 amp 12 volt busses to ranks of miners and teed off with PCIe cables. When the miner shorted out, it would be fed the full 1,000 amps or so from the supply which would cause flames to shoot out of the miner with the usual results (burned down farm). Could be avoided by fusing the miner's input wires to the max current the miner uses but that costs money.

In the UK, those huge plugs have a fuse in them rated to the wire size going to the appliance since the ring current can be 30-40 amps. That fuse in the plug allows the use of 14-16 gauge wire in the appliance without having to worry about fires from a dead short.
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November 21, 2019, 04:59:47 PM
 #4

I'd be a little cautious: For example suppose the Antminer power supply explodes inside and dead shorts the input. Now you have 30 amps of current being sourced by your breaker and delivered by 14 gauge wires rated at 15a to the shorted out Antminer.

So what do you recommend? The S17E requires 220V, but are you advising me to use 10gauge power cords into the Antminer? Do they even make them that thick in 5-15P configuration plugs?

Thanks for the advice.

Also, if something shorts on the S17E, would all 30 AMPS of the breaker go there? Since I will have 2 Antminer S9's plugged in drawing about 6-7 amps each in low power mode unchanged hashrate.
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November 21, 2019, 05:28:22 PM
Last edit: November 22, 2019, 12:35:01 AM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (3), Heisenberg_Hunter (1)
 #5

no  the  issue is the receptacle.

not the 2x  14 gauge wires leading into the  unit.

That receptacle handles only 15 amps.  Frankly the electrician did wrong.

The receptacle is either 1 one or 2 plug style.  but it is only allowed  to pull 15 amps.  the 120/240 volts is a separate issue.

did he give you this one



It can do 15 amps not 30 amps.  top socket can do 15 amps  bottom socket can do 15 amps.   the two added can do 15 amps.

so   2 plugs  from it to the miner both 14 gauge each pull 6-7 amps maybe  12 amps total  maybe 13 amps.

the  14 gauge wire is fine

say these



if the miner shorts  you would  have another issue similar to  lightfoot's issue. that is an if a maybe issue.

but that receptacle will pull 13 amps since you have the 2800 watt model if it pulls  13 x 230 watts =  2990 watts.

the receptacle will be pushed hard.  this is certain.  It is also not code. I am not sure why  the electrical guy gave you 15 amp receptacles

you could buy this



https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Outlet-Industrial-3SP/dp/B000F99CJG/

it will allow up to 15 amps  in reality it will trip at a steady 14 amps

https://www.tripplite.com/waber-by-tripp-lite-3-outlet-industrial-power-strip-6-ft-cord-5-15p-switch-guard~3SP

https://assets.tripplite.com/product-pdfs/en/3sp.pdf

PLEASE UNDERSTAND ALL THIS IS NOT CODE

SO it is mechanically sound but not code.  ie  a fire and no insurance.



Basically the electrician should have put this in.



https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-2620-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00002NAT9/

you could get this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-228481-002-EO4501-Modular-PDU-Power-Distribution-Control-Unit/372792150975?

to 2 of these

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IEC-C20-to-C13-Power-Cord-4-ft-15A-250V-14-AWG-Iron-Box-IBX-4924-04M/121173688268?

this is correct and code each and every thing is done according to USA codes.

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November 21, 2019, 06:37:19 PM
Last edit: November 22, 2019, 12:36:50 AM by frodocooper
Merited by frodocooper (2), Heisenberg_Hunter (1)
 #6

did he give you this one

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/717gqilAnkL._AC_UL115_.jpg

It can do 15 amps not 30 amps.  top socket can do 15 amps  bottom socket can do 15 amps.   the two added can do 15 amps.

so   2 plugs  from it to the miner both 14 gauge each pull 6-7 amps maybe  12 amps total  maybe 13 amps.

Yes, that is what he gave me. He gave me 2 of those which has 2 outlets each leading to the 220V 30 AMP breaker. When he installed the 2 outlet sets (that have 2 outlets each), he said everything behind the outlets leading to the 30 AMP breaker is 10gauge.

So you are saying each set of 2 outlets (like the photo) should only be able to do 15 AMPS. He did say that top and bottom are on one outlet line to the 10gauge. so the next top and bottom one is its own wiring. Since I have 2 sets, each should handle 15 AMPS.

Would it be safer if I plugged ONE of the S16E cords to the top of one of the sets, and the OTHER cable into the other set.
The bottom outlet would of each set would handle an Antminer S9 each running in low power mode.

So each set would only be pulling 12 AMPS (S17E total is 12 AMPS, so I'm assuming each cord pulls 6 AMPS. Each Antminer S9 in low power mode will pull 6 or 7 amps i think)

One set is : top outlet and bottom outlet 15 AMPS.
X
+

I have 2 of them like this: in theory each top and bottom outlet is 15 AMPS capable?
X X
+ +

I'm going to plug in one cable to one X and the other cable to the other X in the S17E.
Each of the bottom outlets (+) will power 1 Antminer S9 at low power mode.

Am I making any sense? Lol.

Thanks for your assistance.
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November 21, 2019, 07:04:59 PM
Last edit: November 22, 2019, 12:37:37 AM by frodocooper
 #7

yeah  it is border line but could work  so 1 s17e   and 2 s9  on low  should be close.

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November 21, 2019, 07:23:32 PM
Last edit: November 21, 2019, 08:19:18 PM by NotFuzzyWarm
Merited by frodocooper (3), Steamtyme (2)
 #8

Quote
Yes, that is what he gave me. He gave me 2 of those which has 2 outlets each leading to the 220V 30 AMP breaker. When he installed the 2 outlet sets (that have 2 outlets each), he said everything behind the outlets leading to the 30 AMP breaker is 10gauge.

So you are saying each set of 2 outlets (like the photo) should only be able to do 15 AMPS. He did say that top and bottom are on one outlet line to the 10gauge. so the next top and bottom one is its own wiring. Since I have 2 sets, each should handle 15 AMPS.
If you are in North America, from what you are saying that there are so many code violations it is not even funny and that electrician needs a hard smack in the head as well as go back for a refresher to his training.....

a) an outlet type MUST match to voltage/current feeding it. In your case the outlet/plug MUST be NEMA 6 that is used for 208-250v service. Yes a NEMA 5 (110v) outlet will not explode if fed with 220V but there is nothing to prevent someone from plugging a 110v device into that 220v outlet with disastrous consequences. Even worse, if there is a fire anyway related to the wiring an insurance company will happily refuse a claim due to such egregious code violations.

b)wiring and breaker to an outlet MUST be sized to the outlet: you CANNOT power multiple 15A single or duplex outlets from a 30A breaker for the simple reason that if overloaded that 15A outlet will burn as will any cords not rated to carry 30A.

c) as Phil said, the 15A rating applies to the entire outlet. Be it 1 cord or 2 plugged in the maximum is 15A total.

When it comes to electrical power wiring there is no 'well, as long as you <conditions>, you can get away with <bad practice>'. You either do it/have it done right or not done at all. PERIOD.

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November 21, 2019, 08:41:27 PM
Last edit: November 22, 2019, 12:38:30 AM by frodocooper
 #9

All my 220/240 are to code as it is not worth it to cheat.

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November 22, 2019, 02:27:53 AM
Merited by NotFuzzyWarm (2), frodocooper (2)
 #10

The crux of the deal here is you can cheat, you can cut corners, but if something goes wrong you could have a fire. There have been plenty of mining farm fires out there, no shortage of pictures of that sort of thing. The thing they have in common seems to be an "economical" design.

What you *can* do is get proper plugs and sockets on the end of those circuits, then plug in power distribution poles with the 30a plug on one side and normal 15a sockets along the length. These poles will have circuit breakers in them designed to pop at 15a or whatever and thus provide the protection for the downstream devices. This is the right way to do it.

As an example my Matrix 5000 UPS is a 30a 240v input with a pretty hefty plug. On the secondary side is a distribution box that plugs into the 30a 240v receptacle and has several circuit breakers on it along with 240v 15a and 120v 15a circuits. Each with their own proper plug.

This stuff is not just done to sell a lot of plugs, it's done because people have burned down houses, farms, offices and the little electrical inspector goes through the wreckage and says "This is the 10th time I have seen this problem. We should write a rule to prevent people from fucking up endlessly".

On the other hand, it keeps the fire trucks a-rolling....
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November 22, 2019, 02:52:02 AM
Last edit: November 22, 2019, 02:12:25 PM by NotFuzzyWarm
Merited by frodocooper (2)
 #11

Ja. The regs were not written just for the heck of it.

Back to the bit about running a 220v line to a NEMA 5 duplex outlet: Some clarification is needed.
Thanks to the North American split-phase power setup technically it can be done BUT and again with a huge BUT, it is done as 220v with neutral to deliver 120v to each receptacle.

If you look at most NEMA duplex outlets you will see each pole has 2 screws for wire and a brass link joining the contact pads together. For one, it makes it easy to daisy-chain circuits -- but -- when the link on the hot side is removed it also allows L1-N (110v) for one socket and L2-N (also 110v) to the other socket, in fact on many/most NEMA duplex outlets the link is scored to be easily broken off. The single neutral wire feeds both sockets via the link on its side. Considering that the device (duplex outlet) is only rated for a total of 15A due to thermal considerations, not sure why one would want to do that but it is allowed as the end result is 110v at each outlet.

Perhaps that is where the electrician went wrong by misunderstanding that one exception?

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November 22, 2019, 03:30:29 AM
Merited by frodocooper (2), Heisenberg_Hunter (1)
 #12

However, they lead to standard 5-15P outlets. The electrician ran 10 gauge wire to the breaker from the outlets he installed. The electrician said its ok, just don't plug 110V stuff on there.

I think don't hire that electrician again. Putting 240v/30a service on Nema 5 is _crazy_.  Forget the fact that it's a code violation: it's actually dangerous because some equipment will fail catastrophically (e.g. become electrified, burst into flames) when plugged into 240v.

The only reason I can think of that an electrician would do that is if he was just clueless.. and e.g. didn't know that you could easily pick up 240v outlets at the hardware store or that appropriate cables to hook IEC connectored equipment (like computer/miner PSUs) are easily available.

Sure _you_ know to only plug 240v stuff into it, but what happens when you have someone in to do some repairs in the room and they need to plug in some tools?  What happens if you're out of town and some family member needs to plug in a shopvac to clean up?  What happens if you're stumbling around in the dark and forget?

Also, something like this is bad enough that it might be used by an insurer to screw you over if there is a fire.

All my 240v stuff is either NEMA 6 twistlocks or IEC 60320.

Non-twistlock NEMA6 is more common in US residential as well as NEMA14 'dryer plugs'... but I prefer twistlock because it locks so you don't accidentally yank it out or leave it half-pluged making a poor connection, plus it's commonly used on data-center equipment, so there is a lot of surplus data-center stuff that just works against it.  (See the picture here.)

I suggest you stop reading, right now, and go make a "danger 240v do not connect normal devices!" sign right now and stick it on it. That's the bare minimum. Then come back.

I would also be pretty dubious about having a 15a rated socket on a 30amp service especially with >15 amps of load.  I've had NEMA 5  15amps outlets char up when just running with a near but under 15a load for an extended period.

Residential targeted electrical equipment doesn't seem to have a lot of safety margin:  it seems to be mostly built expecting that you're going to have an intermittent high usage load (like a vacuum, blender, etc)... it'll survive a sustained load at the rated level but not with a lot of room to spare.  Running a sustained 25a through a fixture specified for 15a seems actually likely to fail to me.  Keep in mind, that damage from running it too hot can increase resistance by oxidizing the connectors... and the higher resistance means more current... which means more heat, and you get a run-away until it fails.

It's very easy to replace an outlet. You can get a NEMA 6 outlet that fits into the same wall box and will receive 10gauge wire. (I'm kinda surprised he got 10gauge to fit on a regular 5-15 outlet, they're really made to take 12gauge max normally). Turn off the breaker, remove a few screws, swap in the replacement, reinstall screws.. done. There are videos on youtube.  Get a little IEC connector power strip rated for enough amps that plugs into your nema 6 outlet and can feed your miners using [ur=https://www.infinitecables.com/power-cables/iec-power-cords/c13-to-c14-power-cords/c13-to-c14-16awg-power-cords-black/iec-c13-to-iec-c14-power-cable-16awg-sjt/]IEC to IEC cables[/url]-- they're often inexpensive if you look some place that sells datacenter surplus (including ebay).

If the breaker is 30amps then I believe by the rules _all_ downstream wire must be at least 10ga (for copper, larger for aluminium).   The purpose of the breaker is to prevent the wires from catching fire, and in theory any one wire downstream of the breaker could carry the entire 30a load. Though I know power cords are often sized way lower than their supporting breakers (like 18-gague wires connected to 20a circuits)... so I guess that rule doesn't apply to power cords.

That wouldn't wouldn't worry me too much in any case, a 14ga cable should be okay with a 15a load. Though if your cable runs aren't really short you might prefer to use a larger gage for the bulk of the run, because 15-amps over 14ga has a non-negligible loss (about 1.3% loss for 20feet).

If you look at most NEMA duplex outlets you will see each pole has 2 screws for wire and a brass link joining the contact pads together. For one, it makes it easy to daisy-chain circuits -- but -- when the link on the hot side is removed it also allows L1-N (110v) for one socket and L2-N (also 110v) to the other socket, in fact on many/most NEMA duplex outlets the link is scored to be easily broken off just for this purpose. The single neutral wire feeds both sockets via the link on its side. Considering that the device (duplex outlet) is only rated for a total of 15A due to thermal considerations, not sure why one would want to do that but it is allowed as the end result is 110v at each outlet.

Huh, I've only seen/used the splitting in order to make one outlet switched e.g. so that a floorlamp can be controlled by a lightswitch.  I'd feel a little sketchy running both phases on one outlet with how close together the two hot nuts would be. A short there if it's just a lamp circuit would be mostly harmless, rather than fireworks. Smiley
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November 22, 2019, 02:09:33 PM
 #13

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Huh, I've only seen/used the splitting in order to make one outlet switched e.g. so that a floorlamp can be controlled by a lightswitch.  I'd feel a little sketchy running both phases on one outlet with how close together the two hot nuts would be. A short there if it's just a lamp circuit would be mostly harmless, rather than fireworks.
Oh I agree 100%. Not normal practice and I'd certainly need a good reason to do it (and really cannot think of one) but - NEC does not forbid it.

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