Tesla sources cobalt from Democratic Republic of Congo

[bluefirecorp_]

DRC uses child labor.

Every Tesla/powerwall sold is using child labor.

What's the societal impact of child labor on finished products?

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[squatz1]

It's the sad truth of any new tech that has to use certain minerals. They're most likely coming from places with horrible working conditions, child labor, people are dying while mining these things, and so on and so forth.

Though Tesla is trying to find a way to not have to rely on precious metals such as Cobalt -- see here (https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/21/17488626/elon-musk-cobalt-electric-vehicle-battery-science) as I think he's the one thats single handidly draining the supply of Cobalt. So, that probably isn't too cheap.

[Rikafip]

Since something like 2/3 of Cobalt produced comes from DR Congo, I wouldn't single out Tesla here, as many others are using Cobalt from the same source ( for example cobalt for batteries in our mobile phone most likely comes from Congo) and with many other companies  announcing electric cars, demand will significantly rise in years to come.

In a country that has one of the lowest GDP per capita in the world, world's 2nd rate of infant mortality, use of child soldiers in conflicts,  decades of dictatorship and overall instability, child labor is something that is  unfortunately very hard to eradicate. I just hope that DR Congo government will eventually start doing something in that regard

I feel sorry for DR Congo, that  area has been heavily exploited in past as well, and unfortunately history tends to repeat itself.  Belgium King Leopold II owned that whole country, and used it as private property from 1885 to 1908, and during that period millions lost their lives during brutal exploitation. Here is the link if someone wants to read more about that somewhat forgotten part of the history.

[tsaroz]

Every enterprise has dark sides. They need to do whatever to keep the price low. They are sourcing material from cheap provider, it's not much of their concern how the product is obtained. It's largely the responsibility of the Congo's government to stop child labor and make provision for these kid to obtain proper education in schools. And we should rather pressure/help congo's government to make the change. Pressuring Telsa to stop getting Cobalt from DRC would have even more drastic consequences for those kids.

[squatz1]

Every enterprise has dark sides. They need to do whatever to keep the price low. They are sourcing material from cheap provider, it's not much of their concern how the product is obtained. It's largely the responsibility of the Congo's government to stop child labor and make provision for these kid to obtain proper education in schools. And we should rather pressure/help congo's government to make the change. Pressuring Telsa to stop getting Cobalt from DRC would have even more drastic consequences for those kids.

While I typically do follow this line of thinking. They don't HAVE to do this, no one is forcing them to do such. It's just the fact that in order to keep shareholders and buyers of the car happy, they're going to need to save money on certain things -- and buying cobalt from a place which treats their workers horribly is something they're going to do.

Profits are what business is all about.

Since something like 2/3 of Cobalt produced comes from DR Congo, I wouldn't single out Tesla here, as many others are using Cobalt from the same source ( for example cobalt for batteries in our mobile phone most likely comes from Congo) and with many other companies  announcing electric cars, demand will significantly rise in years to come.

In a country that has one of the lowest GDP per capita in the world, world's 2nd rate of infant mortality, use of child soldiers in conflicts,  decades of dictatorship and overall instability, child labor is something that is  unfortunately very hard to eradicate. I just hope that DR Congo government will eventually start doing something in that regard

I feel sorry for DR Congo, that  area has been heavily exploited in past as well, and unfortunately history tends to repeat itself.  Belgium King Leopold II owned that whole country, and used it as private property from 1885 to 1908, and during that period millions lost their lives during brutal exploitation. Here is the link if someone wants to read more about that somewhat forgotten part of the history.

I think this line of thinking is the better one, if this is the only place you're going to be able to buy this then this is what's going to happen.

[Mometaskers]

And where can they source cheaper, worker-friendly cobalt? It's pretty much just DRC and Zambia and I don't know if the latter is any better.

I don't think Musk have enough clout to directly affect change in DRC. Maybe they can offer to pay a bit more to their mining partner in exchange for them only hiring adults and maybe other mining operators might follow suit? I don't see that happening though.

Even if, it'll be like the mica situation in India, those kids would just end up probably doing even more dangerous jobs if their source of income dry up.

[Spendulus]

And where can they source cheaper, worker-friendly cobalt? It's pretty much just DRC and Zambia and I don't know if the latter is any better.

I don't think Musk have enough clout to directly affect change in DRC. Maybe they can offer to pay a bit more to their mining partner in exchange for them only hiring adults and maybe other mining operators might follow suit? I don't see that happening though.

Even if, it'll be like the mica situation in India, those kids would just end up probably doing even more dangerous jobs if their source of income dry up.

Realistically, the best thing that could have happened to the DRC is the tripling in cobalt prices that have tripled the country's income from these operations.

That gives mine operators far more flexibility to deal with labor issues, even though that may be through international pressures.

On the other hand, just finding an alternative to cobalt is ignoring the problem of the child labor...

[amishmanish]

I feel sorry for DR Congo, that  area has been heavily exploited in past as well, and unfortunately history tends to repeat itself.  Belgium King Leopold II owned that whole country, and used it as private property from 1885 to 1908, and during that period millions lost their lives during brutal exploitation. Here is the link if someone wants to read more about that somewhat forgotten part of the history.

The history of the loot of Congo and the events that lead to assasiantion of Patrice Lumumba is one of the saddest parts of Modern History. Imagine what Africans could have done with a leader like him at the helm who advocated Pan-African unity in the 50s and 60s.

It is also somehow impossible to understand the  deep hatred that Africans reserve for Africans. Starting from the genocide in Rwanda to the current civil war in South Sudan, almost all the time these people are killing, raping and maiming their own fellows. They have had the concept of a common outsider enemy for almost all their modern history, yet instead of uniting, they have almost always been fighting against each other and letting themselves be manipulated by Western interests.

[alani123]

It's the sad truth of any new tech that has to use certain minerals. They're most likely coming from places with horrible working conditions, child labor, people are dying while mining these things, and so on and so forth.

Though Tesla is trying to find a way to not have to rely on precious metals such as Cobalt -- see here (https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/21/17488626/elon-musk-cobalt-electric-vehicle-battery-science) as I think he's the one thats single handidly draining the supply of Cobalt. So, that probably isn't too cheap.

It's not the sad truth about any new technology, they're just after profits so they go after the cheapest raw materials. Sourcing from ethical mines is perfectly possible. Tesla isn't the only company that doesn't check on its supply chain, but they sure could do better than use Congolese mines.

[amishmanish]

It's the sad truth of any new tech that has to use certain minerals. They're most likely coming from places with horrible working conditions, child labor, people are dying while mining these things, and so on and so forth.

Though Tesla is trying to find a way to not have to rely on precious metals such as Cobalt -- see here (https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/21/17488626/elon-musk-cobalt-electric-vehicle-battery-science) as I think he's the one thats single handidly draining the supply of Cobalt. So, that probably isn't too cheap.

It's not the sad truth about any new technology, they're just after profits so they go after the cheapest raw materials. Sourcing from ethical mines is perfectly possible. Tesla isn't the only company that doesn't check on its supply chain, but they sure could do better than use Congolese mines.

Most new technology that comes to mass-manufacturing stage starts in the developed west. When it comes to rare earth elements, it is nothing new that people in developing countries get exploited. If its not rare earth elements then it is working condition of cheap labor in countries like India, Bangladesh.

There have been times when companies have taken positive steps to prevent such things but taking the moral responsibility for the whole supply chain isn't something that can be asked of them. This applies well to countries that have a stable, functioning Govt. For example, Walmart blacklisted one of the suppliers in Bangaldesh after that factory collapse of 2013.

Yet, in countries like Congo, that have actively suffered due to developed country interests (Patrice Lumuba, the post-independence leader of Congo went to US, Canada and UN for help but didn't get any as Belgium convinced them that he was a "communist"), I think people like Elon Musk can take responsibility to ensure that the business they are giving to Congo remains exploitation free and bring the fruits of labor to whatever populace works there. This needs some social media activism from the Africans, if they can agree to rally together.

[Mometaskers]

snip

Realistically, the best thing that could have happened to the DRC is the tripling in cobalt prices that have tripled the country's income from these operations.

That gives mine operators far more flexibility to deal with labor issues, even though that may be through international pressures.

On the other hand, just finding an alternative to cobalt is ignoring the problem of the child labor...

I don't think there's much alternative, hence the need to help DRC fix this issue.

Yes an increase in prices might allow them to pay decent wages but I don't think that would stop them sneaking in kids to save costs. Only with the central government becoming stronger to implement laws would it be truly stopped.

So I think it's going to be a gradual change. Miners start earning more, government gets more taxes, government gets to improve policing.

[Spendulus]

snip

Realistically, the best thing that could have happened to the DRC is the tripling in cobalt prices that have tripled the country's income from these operations.

That gives mine operators far more flexibility to deal with labor issues, even though that may be through international pressures.

On the other hand, just finding an alternative to cobalt is ignoring the problem of the child labor...

I don't think there's much alternative, hence the need to help DRC fix this issue.

Yes an increase in prices might allow them to pay decent wages but I don't think that would stop them sneaking in kids to save costs. Only with the central government becoming stronger to implement laws would it be truly stopped.

So I think it's going to be a gradual change. Miners start earning more, government gets more taxes, government gets to improve policing.

Agreed. But gradual change is a really good thing, and is based on long term relations and reasonable requests.

[clickerz]

Every enterprise has dark sides. They need to do whatever to keep the price low. They are sourcing material from cheap provider, it's not much of their concern how the product is obtained. It's largely the responsibility of the Congo's government to stop child labor and make provision for these kid to obtain proper education in schools. And we should rather pressure/help congo's government to make the change. Pressuring Telsa to stop getting Cobalt from DRC would have even more drastic consequences for those kids.

I agree with you @tsaroz here. The pressure must be on the Democratic Republic of Congo government. They should strictly impose the law on child labor, good practices in mining and so forth. The government has the power to address this issue unless the government turned blind eye and become complacent on this issue, this will continue.

[darkangel11]

It's interesting that they're advertising electric cars as environment friendly but they don't recycle their batteries. In a couple years these batteries will turn into piles of waste.

the popularity of electric vehicles starts to grow explosively, so does the pile of spent lithium-ion batteries that once powered those cars. Industry analysts predict that by 2020, China alone will generate some 500,000 metric tons of used Li-ion batteries and that by 2030, the worldwide number will hit 2 million metric tons per year.
https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

It's free market. It's not the DRC that uses child labor but the parents of those children that allow it to happen. The child is not the responsibility nor property of the government. If parents and human rights activists allow it to happen they are to blame. Tesla doesn't strike deals with children or their parents but companies who offer to do this or that at a certain price.

[DaveF]

It's interesting that they're advertising electric cars as environment friendly but they don't recycle their batteries. In a couple years these batteries will turn into piles of waste.

Tesla does:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122631_tesla-launches-battery-recycling-at-nevada-gigafactory

https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e
As do others:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/for-dead-ev-batteries-reuse-comes-before-recycle/

https://earth911.com/eco-tech/toyota-launches-hybrid-battery-recycling-program/

In certain parts of the US, lets just call them "The Redeck Meth User States" people are actually stealing hybrid batteries to sell to the scrap yard / recycling centers.

Harder then stealing your rims, but I guess it's a lot more money. I just really want to know how they are getting them out of cars w/o people knowing.

-Dave

[Mometaskers]

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Agreed. But gradual change is a really good thing, and is based on long term relations and reasonable requests.

Yes. Problems like this would take several generations to fix. Better let it slowly fix itself than, you know, bomb the country into freedom. Thank goodness tech companies don't operate as much as the banana companies used to.

It's free market. It's not the DRC that uses child labor but the parents of those children that allow it to happen. The child is not the responsibility nor property of the government. If parents and human rights activists allow it to happen they are to blame. Tesla doesn't strike deals with children or their parents but companies who offer to do this or that at a certain price.

Was it the DRC that used child soldiers in a war? Anyway, yes unless it's forced labor at gunpoint, then the parents are to blame. Even if they are not forcing their children to work. Sometimes children would just work voluntarily out of hunger and pity for the family.

[Gyfts]

Anyone that lives in a developed country is contributing to child labor. Just about every clothing product you wear is made in some sweat shop by some poor kid living in China or another third world country. The only way to stop something like this is to buy locally made products but the fact is, people don't want to play higher prices for good that are outsourced through child labor. We don't have to endorse child labor, but we sure as hell won't stand up to it by adjust consumer practices. I'm not going to blame Tesla when Nike, Adidas, and just about any other clothing company is exploiting child labor just like Tesla.

[franky1]

Anyone that lives in a developed country is contributing to child labor. Just about every clothing product you wear is made in some sweat shop by some poor kid living in China or another third world country. The only way to stop something like this is to buy locally made products but the fact is, people don't want to play higher prices for good that are outsourced through child labor. We don't have to endorse child labor, but we sure as hell won't stand up to it by adjust consumer practices. I'm not going to blame Tesla when Nike, Adidas, and just about any other clothing company is exploiting child labor just like Tesla.

funny part is
avoiding say a grocery store that buys food produce from factory farms, to instead go to a farmers market to buy organic food from a 'local'  FAMILY farm. usually means the children of the family are working for free labour as part of their 'chores'

remember the whole point in schools having a summer break so that the kids can help on the family farms around harvest time
but hey. give american thanks giving that god provided all the food.. and dont give the kids the thanks they deserve

[darkangel11]

It's interesting that they're advertising electric cars as environment friendly but they don't recycle their batteries. In a couple years these batteries will turn into piles of waste.

Tesla does:
<snip>

I'd guess they're producing more than they're recycling, but it's good effort. I like that they're at least trying.

In certain parts of the US, lets just call them "The Redeck Meth User States" people are actually stealing hybrid batteries to sell to the scrap yard / recycling centers.

Harder then stealing your rims, but I guess it's a lot more money. I just really want to know how they are getting them out of cars w/o people knowing.

-Dave

Some cars like the Prius have them under the back seat, accessible through the trunk. They just have to break the trunk lock and it's up for grabs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjlLnzK-yYA

Was it the DRC that used child soldiers in a war? Anyway, yes unless it's forced labor at gunpoint, then the parents are to blame. Even if they are not forcing their children to work. Sometimes children would just work voluntarily out of hunger and pity for the family.

Yes before 2003. It's still a savage country but going from making children into soldiers and sex slaves to employ is some progress. It's Africa. These people used to murder women and children with machetes only a decade ago.

[iluvbitcoins]

If these kids didn't work, they wouldn't have anything to eat.

They aren't slaves. They don't work because someone forces them to.
They work so they can earn food.

If companies didn't purchase their products they would die from starvation.