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Author Topic: Question to collectors regarding metal content/weight  (Read 212 times)
SaltySpitoon
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November 20, 2019, 07:53:02 PM
 #1

Hi guys, I've had a few question regarding Bitcoin collectibles and how you guys view metal purity and piece weight if you feel like taking a moment to share your opinions. There are a lot of legal standards inside of jewelry and precious metal marking that I'm curious whether they'd bother you as collectors. If you've been around for my occasional post or question, you may know that I do non ferrous metal work, and my current focus is on usable collectibles. If its not just a circle or bar of metal that you put inside of a plastic case, but rather something that you can handle, pass around, use functionally, etc the material properties become important, and I'm looking to get an idea of what people might be open to.

Final note before asking your opinions, everything that I would potentially mark would be 100% honest, transparent, and legal.


1) Is .999 Fine a must have for you? Be it gold, silver, platinum, palladium, how do you feel about alloys (sterling, white gold, purple gold, 90/10 Plat/Irid)?

2) Are standard weights a must for you? 1 troy ounce vs 1.3 troy oz, 17.983g, etc?

3) US 1 Oz Gold Eagle question: The 1 Oz US Gold eagle weighs 1.09 Oz because its 22K gold instead of 24K. Its marked as containing 1 troy ounce of fine gold, though the metal is not fine gold, its 22/24 % gold. Is that an issue for you?

4) Under marking: Marking is a minimum standard, would a piece marked 1 troy ounce gold that weighs 32.3 grams bother you? Same question with regards to purity, if I used 98% silver and marked it as 95% would you have any problem with that as long as you are getting more than promised?


Thanks for taking a moment to answer  Smiley

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November 20, 2019, 08:02:43 PM
Last edit: November 20, 2019, 09:31:48 PM by OgNasty
 #2

1) Is .999 Fine a must have for you? Be it gold, silver, platinum, palladium, how do you feel about alloys (sterling, white gold, purple gold, 90/10 Plat/Irid)?

Personally, I rarely buy metal that isn't .9999 anymore unless I really like the coin, then I'd buy a .999.


2) Are standard weights a must for you? 1 troy ounce vs 1.3 troy oz, 17.983g, etc?

I tend to like my collection to all fit nicely together, so uniform capsules or storage tubes is a must for me.


3) US 1 Oz Gold Eagle question: The 1 Oz US Gold eagle weighs 1.09 Oz because its 22K gold instead of 24K. Its marked as containing 1 troy ounce of fine gold, though the metal is not fine gold, its 22/24 % gold.

I no longer buy US gold eagles because of this.  I much prefer the purity and finish of Canadian coins.


4) Under marking: Marking is a minimum standard, would a piece marked 1 troy ounce gold that weighs 32.3 grams bother you? Same question with regards to purity, if I used 98% silver and marked it as 95% would you have any problem with that as long as you are getting more than promised?

It would bother me if it were marked something that it wasn't.  That should not ever happen.  However, if it were marked "~1 troy ounce" it wouldn't bother me at all, because I'd feel like it was meant to be as close as possible to 1oz but maybe the maker didn't have the necessary equipment to do it perfectly and was still trying to be completely honest.

All that being said, if you made something unique and it was meant to be a show piece and not something stored in a collection, I think 90% purity would be a better choice due to being able to better maintain it's shine over time.  Just my 0.00000002 BTC.


(edit)
This is unacceptable, even if I am getting 98% metal while paying for 95%

I should clarify that I don't feel this way about purity.  If something is marked 95% silver, it should contain 95% silver.  The other 5% could be more silver, as that wasn't specified.  It is only if you claim something is there that isn't in your coin that it becomes a problem.

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November 20, 2019, 08:19:42 PM
 #3

1) Is .999 Fine a must have for you? Be it gold, silver, platinum, palladium, how do you feel about alloys (sterling, white gold, purple gold, 90/10 Plat/Irid)?

2) Are standard weights a must for you? 1 troy ounce vs 1.3 troy oz, 17.983g, etc?

3) US 1 Oz Gold Eagle question: The 1 Oz US Gold eagle weighs 1.09 Oz because its 22K gold instead of 24K. Its marked as containing 1 troy ounce of fine gold, though the metal is not fine gold, its 22/24 % gold. Is that an issue for you?

None of the ones above bother me if I am buying coin/bar/anything at spot or below spot

4) Under marking: Marking is a minimum standard, would a piece marked 1 troy ounce gold that weighs 32.3 grams bother you? Same question with regards to purity, if I used 98% silver and marked it as 95% would you have any problem with that as long as you are getting more than promised?

This is unacceptable, even if I am getting 98% metal while paying for 95%, I will report this, whatever is printed should be truthful, lot of people put their hard earned money into jewelry or other items and they should know what they are buying and storing for future needs. I have seen 100s of times when people walk into gold buying shops only to find out that their 22k marking is just 14k or 18k gold or maybe not even that..

Some of my Fav Collectibles So far: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5116928 - Genesis     ------     https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5114574 - Moonbits     ------     https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5096261.0 - Kialaras     ------     https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5135801 - CI - 10th Anniversary
SaltySpitoon
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November 20, 2019, 08:35:17 PM
Last edit: November 20, 2019, 08:48:17 PM by SaltySpitoon
 #4

Thanks for your responses so far guys, its very helpful and addressing exactly what I was concerned about. Just something I wanted to clarify, we aren't talking about bars or coins here. Lets say for example that I'm making steak knives out of silver (no that wouldn't be a good idea) but thats kind of what I mean by I'm looking to see what people would be alright with. There are legal stamps such as sterling, .999, FINE, Britannia, etc that all mean something particular, but lets say for example as far as function goes, .999 would be too soft, .925 would have bad tarnishing properties, .950 is actually 100% stronger if its .958 but there is no legal .958 designation so it gets marked as .950 or .925


This is unacceptable, even if I am getting 98% metal while paying for 95%, I will report this, whatever is printed should be truthful, lot of people put their hard earned money into jewelry or other items and they should know what they are buying and storing for future needs. I have seen 100s of times when people walk into gold buying shops only to find out that their 22k marking is just 14k or 18k gold or maybe not even that..

This is one of the most important parts to me as I'm a much better metallurgist than smith. It is 100% unacceptable to mark something as 22k if its 14k, but a jeweler can absolutely mark something that is 22k as 14k. I don't know why they'd want to do it, but you can. My intent isn't to deceive anyone of course otherwise I wouldn't be openly asking here, its about the case I mentioned above where you can get superior properties with modification. Adding palladium at $1700/oz to silver isn't a cost effective move to cut corners, but its a really interesting option for getting ideal properties. I can't legally mark something with a designation that doesn't exist so a .958 silver blend has to be marked as .925 or maybe .950. That doesn't necessarily need to be a secret from a buyer, but its something I absolutely wanted your opinions on before moving forward.

Once again, thanks and please feel free to keep your opinions coming if you feel like responding.




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November 27, 2019, 04:54:08 PM
Merited by OgNasty (1)
 #5

Just going to leave a few pictures here, they absolutely don't mean anything...






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November 27, 2019, 06:31:22 PM
 #6

I'll start by saying I'm not really a precious metals guy. If I'm holding as an investment, I would rather just have a non-descript bar.

The collectibles I buy are intended as display/conversation pieces.

A steak knife made out of silver would be badass. A broken steak knife made out of silver would suck. So for me, I'd be fine if it's marked as less silver than it really contains. I'd prioritize strength/durability and show it off to my friends.

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November 27, 2019, 08:31:13 PM
 #7


This is unacceptable, even if I am getting 98% metal while paying for 95%

I should clarify that I don't feel this way about purity.  If something is marked 95% silver, it should contain 95% silver.  The other 5% could be more silver, as that wasn't specified.  It is only if you claim something is there that isn't in your coin that it becomes a problem.

Feel the same as OgNasty on this one Smiley

Btw, the spoon looks very nice!!

XhomerX10 designed my nice avatar HATs!!!!!  Thanks Bro
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November 27, 2019, 08:54:10 PM
 #8

I'll start by saying I'm not really a precious metals guy. If I'm holding as an investment, I would rather just have a non-descript bar.

The collectibles I buy are intended as display/conversation pieces.

A steak knife made out of silver would be badass. A broken steak knife made out of silver would suck. So for me, I'd be fine if it's marked as less silver than it really contains. I'd prioritize strength/durability and show it off to my friends.



Thanks for your input  Smiley I picked up a knife forge by accident so we'll see what happens. Silver handle with a steel blade might be neat, I know a lot about the metallurgy of steel but not the forging process. That takes a lot of dedication to learn, and I don't have the proper know how right now to produce something I'd be comfortable with someone else owning.


Feel the same as OgNasty on this one Smiley

Btw, the spoon looks very nice!!

And thanks to you as well. I got it damn near 2 oz in fine silver, we'll see how close I can get after sanding and polishing. I'll mark them as appropriate. The obvious solution to me is to make them in both fine silver for people who want a silver spoon shaped bar, and alloyed silver for people who want to eat their cheerios with it. I was going to have the fineness and mint marks directly on the model so I wouldn't need to hand stamp everything, but I suppose I can just go that route. Leaves the door open for a gold version if anyone is feeling fancy. Mostly I'm just tried of the airtight perfect condition collectibles market. I like collectibles that you can handle and use, then when you go to sell them, polish them up and good as new.

I should have the first one made fairly soon, I want to run a few strength tests on my heat aging and work hardening procedure to make sure they will be good to go for regular use.


*Edit*

As a side note, I couldn't bring myself to have the text say Hodl Tight, even though I had a feeling it might get more attention if I did. I'll show pictures of the final version when its ready, but the design is really super sleek, the Hodl would kill that in my opinion.

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November 27, 2019, 10:38:45 PM
 #9



4) if I used 98% silver and marked it as 95% would you have any problem with that as long as you are getting more than promised?

I like purity but 95% seems acceptable somehow.
You would be too generous with that extra silver purity and I preffer truth and precision when possible.

I like the spoon btw.


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SaltySpitoon
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November 27, 2019, 11:06:57 PM
 #10



4) if I used 98% silver and marked it as 95% would you have any problem with that as long as you are getting more than promised?

I like purity but 95% seems acceptable somehow.
You would be too generous with that extra silver purity and I preffer truth and precision when possible.

I like the spoon btw.


So the issue that I was apparently rightfully concerned about is that purity marks are legal standards, and in my example 98% fits no standard. You may have seen things marked as .900 or "Coin silver" those are all legal definitions of the material, meaning that they promise a minimum of 90% silver, but no information is given regarding the remaining 10%. You can legally call .999 silver bullion "Coin silver", "Sterling", or "Fine", but you can't call it .9999. Obviously its in most people's best interest to accurately mark their material, as a craftsman could legally call their 18 karat gold 10 karat, but they'd be losing a lot of money doing that. If I whip up some crazy alloy that is 92% silver, 2% copper, 1% cobalt, 2% palladium, and 3% germanium, the highest designation of fineness that I can legally mark it as is .900 or Coin silver. I could also use another legal mark guaranteeing a lower quantity of silver such as .800, but I could not mark it as sterling or .925 since its only 92% silver and not 92.5%.

If I mark something, I have to follow those standards, I can't mark something made of 94% silver as .940 as that isn't a recognized legal mark, .940 means nothing. On the other hand, the designation .925 means that I guarantee that the silver content is not less than 92.5% which 94% is not. Theres nothing saying that I can't tell people exactly what I use, but I can't stamp the metal with a number that isn't a recognizable purity mark. My options in this case are to stick strictly to legally defined marks, or just make sure people are completely aware that a spoon marked as 0.950 is actually .980 or whatever should I decide to use that alloy.

Heres what I can stamp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_standards

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November 28, 2019, 03:33:25 AM
 #11

You spelled hodl wrong.


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November 28, 2019, 05:16:03 AM
 #12

Salty, bit off topic but curious if you’ve worked with Ruthenium yet? We talked another this a year + ago and I know you hadn’t at that time, just curious if you have since. Overdue for a BTC ruthenium coin imo.
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November 28, 2019, 05:43:11 AM
 #13

You spelled hodl wrong.

I know... I'll fix my mistake.

Salty, bit off topic but curious if you’ve worked with Ruthenium yet? We talked another this a year + ago and I know you hadn’t at that time, just curious if you have since. Overdue for a BTC ruthenium coin imo.

Still have not worked with Ruthenium. Besides the blistering high temps required to work with it, its quite difficult to source. I may need to find some to do some platinum blends, but for the time being its still not on my radar.

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December 01, 2019, 04:36:15 AM
 #14

I've got a general idea of the direction to take, but still looking for input while I wait. The spoons are just long enough that they don't fit in my kiln now and I'm not changing the length as I find them very properly sized, so I'm building a new kiln. While I'm waiting for all of the bits to arrive, please feel free to keep the suggestions/opinions coming in.

My plan as of right now is to make two versions, one in .999 silver and one in Britannia Argentium silver. I expect they'll both be damn near 2 troy ounces, but I won't know exactly until I have them made. Not sure yet whether I'll mark 2 Troy Oz Fine silver on the .999 version if they do indeed remain above but ~ 62.2g of silver after finishing.

I sort of want to make a gold one as well, but I feel like that'd be kind of stupid...

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December 01, 2019, 08:58:50 AM
 #15

Ugh I never imagined I'll never get more merit to give.

Gold would be a bit expensive, why you don't try some exotic metals that ain't as expensive.


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SaltySpitoon
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Activity: 2310
Merit: 1998


Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?


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December 01, 2019, 09:47:49 AM
 #16

Ugh I never imagined I'll never get more merit to give.

Gold would be a bit expensive, why you don't try some exotic metals that ain't as expensive.

Exotics are fun but hard to source and are often full of surprises. That said, if you have a suggestion I'm all ears and I'll at the very least look into it and give you a proper response as to why its a good or bad idea.

I picked silver first because besides being my forte, its actually a suitable material for dining ware. Making this spoon out of gold is really a pipe dream, I mean I could do it, but it'd be something like 4 oz of pure gold or ~0.8 BTC just in metal. Not really that great of an idea.

andulolika
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December 01, 2019, 09:54:32 AM
 #17

Ugh I never imagined I'll never get more merit to give.

Gold would be a bit expensive, why you don't try some exotic metals that ain't as expensive.

Exotics are fun but hard to source and are often full of surprises. That said, if you have a suggestion I'm all ears and I'll at the very least look into it and give you a proper response as to why its a good or bad idea.

I picked silver first because besides being my forte, its actually a suitable material for dining ware. Making this spoon out of gold is really a pipe dream, I mean I could do it, but it'd be something like 4 oz of pure gold or ~0.8 BTC just in metal. Not really that great of an idea.

I has no idea what to suggest, last time I were searching metals i ended up in radioactivity and discovered europium which just tarnishes very fast even looks very nice if properly protected.

Long ago I were really interested in seeing a physical made of meteorite metal, which is expensive as hell and I think it is not pourable since youd lose the etching pattern.
Edit: I found these things at arizonaskiesmeteorites.com
And just noted they just got quiiite a few new specimens.


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.Bit-Exo.





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SaltySpitoon
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Activity: 2310
Merit: 1998


Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?


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December 01, 2019, 04:44:38 PM
 #18

Ugh I never imagined I'll never get more merit to give.

Gold would be a bit expensive, why you don't try some exotic metals that ain't as expensive.

Exotics are fun but hard to source and are often full of surprises. That said, if you have a suggestion I'm all ears and I'll at the very least look into it and give you a proper response as to why its a good or bad idea.

I picked silver first because besides being my forte, its actually a suitable material for dining ware. Making this spoon out of gold is really a pipe dream, I mean I could do it, but it'd be something like 4 oz of pure gold or ~0.8 BTC just in metal. Not really that great of an idea.

I has no idea what to suggest, last time I were searching metals i ended up in radioactivity and discovered europium which just tarnishes very fast even looks very nice if properly protected.

Long ago I were really interested in seeing a physical made of meteorite metal, which is expensive as hell and I think it is not pourable since youd lose the etching pattern.
Edit: I found these things at arizonaskiesmeteorites.com
And just noted they just got quiiite a few new specimens.

I'm not geared up properly to handle ferrous based metals right now, but if I get into forging so I can make meteorite kitchen knives that could be neat, though I don't know exactly how usable they'd be. I'll do some searching around for something interesting while I'm waiting for all of my kiln materials to show up. Francium spoon!

On a side note, I've got a ton of plans and partial designs for things that aren't spoons with different purposes in different materials. I just got on a kitchen utensil kick recently and decided I wanted at least one silver spoon/fork/knife for when I want to feel fancy eating a bowl of cereal. I've successfully made custom rings with Bitcoin private keys inside so you can have a backup and discrete way to carry your coins on you. A few decisions need to be made about whether I just ask people to encrypt and send me the keys to put on them, or if I could obscure the inside and make denominations of wearable keys. I've got a few solutions for obscuring the keys though they wouldn't be perfectly foolproof as a jeweler may be able to figure out what I'm doing and redeem the BTC. For a self funded model of course you don't have to worry about it trading hands so its not a concern.

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