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Author Topic: [BCT FACT] Bitcointalk was originally on Bitcoin.org but ... drama  (Read 751 times)
gmaxwell
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November 23, 2019, 01:04:06 AM
Merited by tmfp (1)
 #21

I didn't know EFF refused a Bitcoin donation for tax reasons, TIL.
Basically there were a lot of Bitcoin donations-- thousands of Bitcoin-- sent to the EFF and then they decided they didn't want them, and they handed them over to Gavin.

I think it's really good to learn about history from primary material like these logs-- it wipes away a lot of the bullshit hero worship and false certainty, like the idea that great leaders usually have any freeking clue what they're doing, that shows up in more derivative historical work.  But it has limitations: you're stuck with the misconceptions that existed at the time Smiley

My recollection is that their reasoning was more complicated than "tax reasons"-- essentially they were concerned that if they accepted Bitcoin they'd have a conflict of interest that might impede their ability to defend Bitcoin in the courts.  E.g. if any use of Bitcoin was criminal then the EFF might have been a defendant in anti-bitcoin litigation.  My understanding is that they were also getting flak from some of their donors for 'endorsing a scam'.

Here is EFF's blog post https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/06/eff-and-bitcoin ... it seems to backup my recollection.
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November 23, 2019, 01:06:43 AM
 #22

I remember the old forum from my days of noobness. It wasn't until 2013 when it was clear that BFL had really fucked me over that I decided to join the forum and vent about my Jalapenos and SCs that never arrived.

Funny how I never got to the complaining part as I got caried away when BTC hit $1k for the first time. Almost seemed like it happened faster than the 2017/18 peak. In fact, it did.

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November 23, 2019, 06:20:29 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #23

That was Fun.. Love the vibe..Here is the Sequence of Events if you want a shorter version. I highlighted some of the moments i found interesting:

1. Maxwell expressing concern over trolls in old forum
Quote
2011-06-12 04:23:31 <theymos>   The forum is more than just Bitcoin development. It is (supposed to be) a good, low-moderation forum for discussion of many topics. Moderation needs to be increased when there is a ton of trolls, however.
2011-06-12 04:23:44 <gmaxwell>   What jgarzik said. I'm embarassed to tell friends about bitcoin for fear that they'll load the forums and find a wall of dickhead blabbering on about black helicopters and prediction markets for killing babies or whatever.


2. Cocern over Devs facing legal uncertainty (Guilt by association)
Quote
2011-06-14 18:06:32 <jrmithdobbs>   topi`: all the actual work on bitcoin and related software is verifiably being done in places where they are illegal
2011-06-14 18:06:53 <jrmithdobbs>   topi`: you realise that anti-bitcoin legislation would make jgarzik and gavin criminals defacto, right?
2011-06-14 18:06:59 <jrmithdobbs>   topi`: you understand why this is bad, right?
2011-06-14 18:07:11 <TD>   sadly a lot of people jumping on the bitcoin bandwagon, apparently don't understand that
2011-06-14 18:07:32 <jrmithdobbs>   topi`: if the lead devs can no longer contribute because of legal hassles it will come tumbling down
2011-06-14 18:08:02 <jeremias>   isn't bitcoin software pretty stable currently
2011-06-14 18:08:09 <TD>   it needs constant work to keep up with the network scaling
2011-06-14 18:08:18 <TD>   not having devs is not an option. the system is already creaking under the load


3. Jeff asks Theymos about new domain
Quote
2011-06-15 03:29:06 <jgarzik>   theymos: what's the status on moving the forums to another domain?
2011-06-15 03:29:42 <theymos>   I don't like the idea, so I'm not going to do it. Sirius can do it if he wants.
2011-06-15 03:31:59 <jgarzik>   rather unilateral, for a decentralized project


4. Jeff and Theymos argue whats official
Quote
2011-06-15 03:38:29 <jgarzik>   theymos: anything on bitcoin.org is clearly official
2011-06-15 03:38:49 <theymos>   Let's change that perception.
2011-06-15 03:39:03 <genewitch>   jgarzik: you want the "good" forums on forum.bitcoin.org and the current forums on a different domain?
2011-06-15 03:39:10 <jgarzik>   theymos: show me _one_ other person who actually thinks that is possible.  just one.
2011-06-15 03:39:26 <theymos>   I'm sure I could find someone if I asked around.
2011-06-15 03:39:42 <jgarzik>   bitcoin.org was started by satoshi, and it's all over the print media, online media, search engines and ... duh .. it matches the project's name.


5.ROFL @ That was only temporary
Quote
2011-06-15 03:53:09 <theymos>   That's not true at all. I've never removed a moderator. And I'm not the only administrator: Gavin was the one who made me an admin.
2011-06-15 03:53:30 <jgarzik>   theymos: blatant lie.  you removed my mod powers.
2011-06-15 03:53:54 <theymos>   That modship was only temporary. I said it at the time.
2011-06-15 03:53:58 <gjs278>   exactly
2011-06-15 03:53:59 <jgarzik>   uh huh
2011-06-15 03:54:02 <luke-jr>   jgarzik: he did say it was for 24 hours..
2011-06-15 03:54:11 <jgarzik>   luke-jr: it lasted < 60 minutes
2011-06-15 03:54:15 <luke-jr>   O.o

Grin

6. Jeff asks Theymos to move the "illegal activity" posts. Theymos sticks to the policy.
Quote
2011-06-15 03:54:42 <jgarzik>   theymos: will you make me moderator again, and permit me to delete posts encouraging illegal activity?
2011-06-15 03:55:11 <theymos>   No. It is the policy of the forum to allow such discussions. Sirius owns the server, so he can change the policy if he's worried about legal action.


7. Theymos warms up to the idea with his  Centralization vs Decetaralization remark.
Quote
2011-06-15 04:02:16 <theymos>   Centralization is an effective management technique as long as there are many centralized organizations to compete.
2011-06-15 04:03:01 <cacheson>   theymos: right, so splitting the forums off from bitcoin.org furthers that
2011-06-15 04:03:27 <cacheson>   theymos: makes the forums and the development stuff into two visibly separate organizations
2011-06-15 04:03:46 <jgarzik>   indeed
2011-06-15 04:03:58 <cacheson>   that way you can let people talk about what they want to on the forums without the developers getting (as much) flak about it


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November 23, 2019, 04:58:16 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #24

Thanks for this, awesome, I included a link in the Bitcoin Prehistory thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5126554.msg53158866#msg53158866

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November 23, 2019, 09:32:25 PM
 #25

Wow. thanks for posting this. I realized this conversation started mere day before i registered here  [or there actually] Grin

bitcoin have come a long way since then. what a journey
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November 23, 2019, 10:11:36 PM
 #26

2011-06-12 04:23:31 <theymos>   The forum is more than just Bitcoin development. It is (supposed to be) a good, low-moderation forum for discussion of many topics. Moderation needs to be increased when there is a ton of trolls, however.
2011-06-12 04:28:13 <theymos>   A separate professional forum is fine, but I like the "unprofessional" forum.
2011-06-12 04:30:25 <theymos>   I happen to like 4chan...
2011-06-15 03:40:36 <theymos>   Not very "decentralized" of you to demand that any website be "official" at all. I argue that there should be no official websites.

2011-06-15 03:47:25 <theymos>   I support some types of illegal activity. Free trade, for example.

2011-06-15 03:54:42 <jgarzik>   theymos: will you make me moderator again, and permit me to delete posts encouraging illegal activity?
...
2011-06-15 03:55:11 <theymos>   No. It is the policy of the forum to allow such discussions. Sirius owns the server, so he can change the policy if he's worried about legal action.
Some cool theymos quotes..

Smiley That makes me nostalgic for when I was quite that naïvely revolutionary. The forum was pretty crazy back then...

What an awesome thread!  You guys have a ton of great ideas.  Has anyone seen Silk Road yet?  It's kind of like an anonymous amazon.com.  I don't think they have heroin on there, but they are selling other stuff.  They basically use bitcoin and tor to broker anonymous transactions.  It's at http://tydgccykixpbu6uz.onion.  Those not familiar with Tor can go to silkroad420.wordpress.com for instructions on how to access the .onion site.

This has big publicity potential and could increase the user base. It's just a bit difficult for them to build reputation as most people don't want to publicly admit they bought from there. Maybe private recommendations will do. Or people can say "I know somebody who successfully bought from them".

Or was jgarzik the one to suggest that domain?

He came up with it.

Not so revolutionary anymore eh?
That post would be against the rules now..

11. No linking to illegal trading sites.
17. Trading of goods that are illegal in the seller's or buyer's country is forbidden.
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November 24, 2019, 01:14:54 AM
 #27

Hello,

Thank you for this very interesting story that tells us more about the history of the forum Smiley

A question comes to me, where do these messages actually come from ?

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November 24, 2019, 05:04:22 AM
Merited by Hueristic (1), JayJuanGee (1), Vispilio (1), lulucrypto (1)
 #28

Thank you for this very interesting story that tells us more about the history of the forum Smiley
A question comes to me, where do these messages actually come from ?
All that text is from the #bitcoin-dev IRC channel on freenode, which has been the most active discussion venue for Bitcoin development since Satoshi stopped participating (well, now in #bitcoin-core-dev due to other interesting history).

It used to have public logs all over the internet as matter of channel policy: We considered the public logs important for openness and transparency, so while other bitcoin channels forbid public logs and preferred banning over quieting disruptive users,  #bitcoin-dev embraced public logs and strongly preferred quieting to bans.  If not for the public logs I would have consistently pushed that all important discussions get moved to the mailing lists.

Unfortunately all the public logs are offline now and it's not entirely clear to me why. I've found it particularly concerning because the loss of these logs is extraordinarily helpful for people who are dishonestly trying to rewrite the political history of Bitcoin. (e.g. they claim stuff like I only started participating in Bitcoin in 2014 or 2015 or that everyone always agreed that the blocksize limit was temporary and would be completely eliminated-- stuff that the discussion shows isn't just wrong, but is an absurd opposite of the truth).

I've been working on unifying logs from a number of people to recover a complete set (any given person has holes in their logs because of periods where they were offline...).
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November 25, 2019, 12:50:26 AM
 #29

Okay, it's really interesting, you did a great job !

But suddenly, since it was public discussions, is it not possible to find them on sites such archive.org ?

Do you still have the links of these discussions ( Even if they are dead ) ?

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|ROULETTE
MINES
TOWERS
DICE
CRASH
──── ─── ─
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November 25, 2019, 01:06:03 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #30


But suddenly, since it was public discussions, is it not possible to find them on sites such archive.org ?

Errr no, it didn't work like that.
You have to remember that was a time when they took screenshots with Polaroid cameras.


Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence
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November 25, 2019, 04:11:10 AM
Merited by iasenko (1)
 #31

Okay, it's really interesting, you did a great job !
But suddenly, since it was public discussions, is it not possible to find them on sites such archive.org ?
Do you still have the links of these discussions ( Even if they are dead ) ?
Yes, it's possible, but difficult.

And there is so much discussion that without the ability to search text it's impossible to find anything.

But here you go:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140703182335/http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/06/11#l1307836061

https://web.archive.org/web/20140703182232/http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/06/12
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November 26, 2019, 04:15:44 AM
Merited by gmaxwell (1)
 #32

--snip--

Unfortunately all the public logs are offline now and it's not entirely clear to me why. I've found it particularly concerning because the loss of these logs is extraordinarily helpful for people who are dishonestly trying to rewrite the political history of Bitcoin. (e.g. they claim stuff like I only started participating in Bitcoin in 2014 or 2015 or that everyone always agreed that the blocksize limit was temporary and would be completely eliminated-- stuff that the discussion shows isn't just wrong, but is an absurd opposite of the truth).

I've been working on unifying logs from a number of people to recover a complete set (any given person has holes in their logs because of periods where they were offline...).


The rewriting is going on full swing and you are a favorite target for the gang when it comes to the whole Old devs VS Core devs drama. Nobody has the time and the willingness to go through the actual history. What is especially disappointing in this regard is that r/bitcoin has become a wall of memes and stupid arguments.
Any newcomer would find r/btc to be much more "informative". It doesn't matter if their narrative is wrong. These public logs that you mention can be a treasure trove to solidify the truths of the matter. We should be doing this in mission mode. I am sure a lot of us would be interested in helping you out.

Regards
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