Helping (usually new) People Choose Their Wallet(s)

[Dabs]

Samsung phones can encrypt the whole phone. The only way to use it if you don't have the password is to do another factory reset.

As for Samourai and Sentinel, I have not yet personally used those. I've only used Electrum. But if it's air gapped, it should work as advertised.

[Karartma1]

I was using a SamsungGalaxy S9: no root, updated to the latest manufacturer firmware, no biometrics ever activated and encrypted from the start (I guess using samsung knox).

Did you perform a factory reset on it before you started? Did you keep it permanently airgapped?

When you say you "guess using samsung knox", it sounds like you didn't actually encrypt the wallet, but just relied on the phone not allowing access to data after startup until you enter your password/PIN. If I'm not mistaken, Samsung phones can have their login screen disabled from your Samsung account in case people forget their password/PIN, so that's not exactly secure. Better to use a proper encryption program.

Where did you store the phone when you were not using it?

Did you keep the device airgapped even when making transactions?

Yes, a factory reset was the first thing I have done. Then I completely wiped out and/or disabled other apps and bloatware whenever possible. Never started Bluetooth and connection option (not even nfc).
After that I enabled the Samsung Secure which basically encrypts the entire internal storage when the Phone is restarted.
The phone was on my desk all the time, and nobody ever bothered to use it. (also because it's all cracked on the glass).

[o_e_l_e_o]

Interesting, if I get this right it is possible to create some sort of nice set-up using commercial phones.

That's correct. Anything that can run a wallet, be that a desktop, laptop, Raspberry Pi, mobile phone, can be used, and provided you can keep that device permanently airgapped and encrypt the files when not in use, then it is a fairly robust storage method. Mobile phones work well since almost everyone has an old phone lying around they can reset and use, and they almost all have built in cameras which can be used to scan QR codes back and forth from your watch only wallet on an internet connected device.

Sometimes the best hiding place is the one that is in plain sight, really!

Well, that depends. Mobile phones, even old ones, are still a target for thieves since they are easy to flip/sell/trade for cash. You also have to make sure that no one you live with will reset it to use it, try to trade it in, damage it by accident, and so on. If you are using an old phone as a wallet, I would still keep it hidden at the back of a drawer or a cupboard, for example.

-snip-

That's pretty secure then. I assume you used QR codes to send transactions back and forth?

[acquafredda]

Thanks o_e_l_e_o for your detailed answer.
I have an old Samsung Galaxy S7 that I use only for playing some music, watching videos and as a companion for my physical activity. I will probably wipe it clean, do what Karartma1 did and start using it as a mid-range storage.
I need to find a suitable wallet after that, I used to like mycelium a lot but it has too much crap inside it. According to walletscrutiny it should be safe to use as the code provided by devs it is reproducible.

[Karartma1]

-snip-

That's pretty secure then. I assume you used QR codes to send transactions back and forth?

Yes, that's exactly what I did  Good then, I'm happy I was able to build a decent storage mechanism without relying on a fancy hardware wallet. I can start from scratch again and reconfigure it. The last thing to mention is the importance of the backup seeds: for that, I need to find something better than some paper in old books......

[o_e_l_e_o]

for that, I need to find something better than some paper in old books......

I think paper remains one of the best ways to back up your seed phrase.

There is an abundance of products on the market revolving around backing your seed phrase up in some configuration of metalwork, be that tiles in a holder, stamping letters on plates, etching letters on plates, punching holes through templates, etc. Some of them perform very well in terms of durability and longevity, others not so much. (https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/) They all come with a cost, some being very expensive for what they are.

While these certainly feel safer than using paper, I'd argue they are not necessarily so. They might survive your house burning down, but what if you can't find them again in the rubble? What if a flood or hurricane (depending on your location) carries them a few kilometers away? It doesn't matter if they survive if you can't find them again. And they are no less likely to be stolen or identified for what they are than a paper back up if a thief stumbles across them (in fact, probably more so, since they are obviously something valuable).

I have only ever used paper for my back ups, but crucially, I have multiple back ups spread across multiple different geographical locations. If my house burns down it is not an issue as far as my bitcoin go, as I can recover my seed phrase from one of my other back ups. If you do want to use metal, then just go to a local hardware store and buy a piece of stainless steel you can etch your words in to yourself for less than $10. It is cheaper than any of the products linked above, and it also avoids giving your personal details over to a company known for manufacturing seed phrase back ups, which could be very dangerous as we have seen from the recent Ledger leak.

[acquafredda]

A good friend of mine purchased and delivered to me a cryptosteel (https://cryptosteel.com) as a Christams gift. I mean it looks very cool and secure but if something like what you explained above happens, it is over! Also, what I hate about these geeky devices is that they are too easily recognizable. To me, that looks like a tremendous and unbearable risk.
I would rather stick to the old fashioned paper as you said!

[Dabs]

You can laminate paper, or cover it with transparent epoxy. Or just to be neat, file them in plastic sleeves in a binder.

Covering them will make them waterproof. Then you can use a safe to make them fireproof, or bury them or something along those lines.

[Pmalek]

@acquafredda
It looks like a whole lot of work arranging all those letters to create 24 words, in addition to the fact that the thing costs more than some hardware wallets. How long did it take you to arrange your recovery phrase properly?

Does it have enough uppercase/lowercase letters for all possible word combinations?
I remember that o_e_l_e_o talked about that in a review of BITHD Frozen Armor where there weren't enough letters.

[acquafredda]

Covering them will make them waterproof. Then you can use a safe to make them fireproof, or bury them or something along those lines.

Thanks for the tip but that is actually what I do not want to do. I want to keep it secure, yet I do not want to either use a safe or go burying that somewhere. I would rather stick to the books and actually I may come up with some personal code. I need to think more about it.

Pmalek, I have never said I used that for a seed! The gift is still a gift. Never used it.

[Dabs]

I would rather stick to the books and actually I may come up with some personal code. I need to think more about it.

Are you talking about writing in the pages of the book? I see a few book options:

1. Writing in the margins, or anywhere in the book, itself.
2. Use the existing letters in the book as some sort of steganographic code. There are many ways to do this.
3. Write on some other paper and glue it inside the pages of the book.
4. Carve out the inside pages, use the book as a container. Like how they put objects hidden inside books.

I am thinking you are leaning towards the second one. You can write a dot per page, above or below a letter. You would need 4 pages per word. 48 to 96 pages depending on number of seed words. Or spread it out even more.

If you have any sort of inheritance planning, I would not go this route unless you tell them how to decode your book code, or it's written down in the first page.


I think a lot of people should treat bitcoins (seed words) as some sort of precious object; maybe like a gold bar. Write it down. Seal it with white glue or whatever. Put it in an envelope. Store it in a safe.

A house fire can burn up to 1500 degrees Fahrenheit / 800 Celsius. That's why all these metal wallets have a market. I would just secure mine the way John Wick does for his guns and gold coins. I think those survive whatever fire razed his house.

[Karartma1]

for that, I need to find something better than some paper in old books......

I think paper remains one of the best ways to back up your seed phrase.

There is an abundance of products on the market revolving around backing your seed phrase up in some configuration of metalwork, be that tiles in a holder, stamping letters on plates, etching letters on plates, punching holes through templates, etc. Some of them perform very well in terms of durability and longevity, others not so much. (https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/) They all come with a cost, some being very expensive for what they are.

While these certainly feel safer than using paper, I'd argue they are not necessarily so. They might survive your house burning down, but what if you can't find them again in the rubble? What if a flood or hurricane (depending on your location) carries them a few kilometers away? It doesn't matter if they survive if you can't find them again. And they are no less likely to be stolen or identified for what they are than a paper back up if a thief stumbles across them (in fact, probably more so, since they are obviously something valuable).

I have only ever used paper for my back ups, but crucially, I have multiple back ups spread across multiple different geographical locations. If my house burns down it is not an issue as far as my bitcoin go, as I can recover my seed phrase from one of my other back ups. If you do want to use metal, then just go to a local hardware store and buy a piece of stainless steel you can etch your words in to yourself for less than $10. It is cheaper than any of the products linked above, and it also avoids giving your personal details over to a company known for manufacturing seed phrase back ups, which could be very dangerous as we have seen from the recent Ledger leak.

Great o_e_l_e_o, that's a lot of necessary food for thought! I'm not in a rush and I'll start researching what my best setup could be. In the meanwhile, after having done yet another factory reset, I need to solve the wallet and backup puzzle. Which wallet to use (electrum on android looks silly to me) and how to safely store the seed. I see there are already some useful tips in the late comments. Thanks everyone

[acquafredda]

I would rather stick to the books and actually I may come up with some personal code. I need to think more about it.

Are you talking about writing in the pages of the book? I see a few book options:

1. Writing in the margins, or anywhere in the book, itself.
2. Use the existing letters in the book as some sort of steganographic code. There are many ways to do this.
3. Write on some other paper and glue it inside the pages of the book.
4. Carve out the inside pages, use the book as a container. Like how they put objects hidden inside books.

I am thinking you are leaning towards the second one. You can write a dot per page, above or below a letter. You would need 4 pages per word. 48 to 96 pages depending on number of seed words. Or spread it out even more.

If you have any sort of inheritance planning, I would not go this route unless you tell them how to decode your book code, or it's written down in the first page.


I think a lot of people should treat bitcoins (seed words) as some sort of precious object; maybe like a gold bar. Write it down. Seal it with white glue or whatever. Put it in an envelope. Store it in a safe.

A house fire can burn up to 1500 degrees Fahrenheit / 800 Celsius. That's why all these metal wallets have a market. I would just secure mine the way John Wick does for his guns and gold coins. I think those survive whatever fire razed his house.

You got me, I could have not been able to express that better. I am definitely leaning towards the second one you explained and, moreover, I need to get some family member aware of how to retrieve the coins if something happens to me. All this started when I underwent a surgery operation back in October last year and in case I would have died, nobody could have been able to use my coins. Long story short, all the information provided are excellent. Thank you so much 

[fillippone]

You got me, I could have not been able to express that better. I am definitely leaning towards the second one you explained and, moreover, I need to get some family member aware of how to retrieve the coins if something happens to me. All this started when I underwent a surgery operation back in October last year and in case I would have died, nobody could have been able to use my coins. Long story short, all the information provided are excellent. Thank you so much 

I think the simpler, the better. Also because I am thinking about the worst outcome scenario: something bad happens to me, and I am not in any way able to help anyone recover my coins.

The setup I am currently running then involves a hardware wallet and a safe box in my bank, where only a very restricted number of people can access.
I currently use the hardware wallet, directly connected to my own node.
The backup seed of this HW Wallet, whose pin anyone knows, Is in a safebox, in my bank.
Inside my safe-box, there is a paper envelope with the seed written in plain text. There is the PIN of the HW and a telephone number of a friend of mine, who can help one of those persons retrieve my their coins ("just don't take a too big cut for the job" I told him).

[Dabs]

... friend of mine, who can help one of those persons retrieve my their coins ("just don't take a too big cut for the job" I told him).

I have a few friends or contracts set up with some sort of multi-sig thing, and they offered 10%. Because otherwise their heirs wouldn't have access to any coins. It was either zero or 90% of whatever they have.

[acquafredda]

I have a better friend then: we will take care of our respective wealth for free.
That happens if you introduce a good friend to bitcoin and he becomes filthy rich. 
Having this burden has haunted me for quite a while. I hope his kids will be able to understand the whole recovery setup soon, so that they can share the burden with me too.

 

[fillippone]

<...>
That happens if you introduce a good friend to bitcoin and he becomes filthy rich. 

You mean that you introduced this friend of yours to bitcoin, he invested good money in this, and became filthy rich while you stayed poor acquafredda?
And he’s eventually taking care of your few satoshi for free as a sign of gratitude.
This is it acquafredda, it isn’t?

[Dabs]

I mean, that's kinda what I am here for, a sort of private person, sort of custodial service.

I teach them how to do it, we set up some sort of multi-sig backup method where I hold one key. If they can pull it off without me, that's all fine. If they can not, they ask for my help. And sometimes they feel they can't really do it on their own and trust that I can help them with their coins passing on to their loved ones when they are gone.

Eventually, they either figure it out and redo their own wallet and security without me, or they hedge and tell me to keep a backup for them.

[acquafredda]

<...>
That happens if you introduce a good friend to bitcoin and he becomes filthy rich. 

You mean that you introduced this friend of yours to bitcoin, he invested good money in this, and became filthy rich while you stayed poor acquafredda?
And he’s eventually taking care of your few satoshi for free as a sign of gratitude.
This is it acquafredda, it isn’t?

I know it is not funny but trust me that I stayed poor preserving my bitcoin maximalism.
He bought ETH in presale a few weeks after I started explaining him everything I knew about btc. Then, eventually, he became probably more maxi than me when he sold everything for btc back in 2017.
We are very good friends, a rich and poor one... still both happy though which is what matters most.