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Author Topic: Is the hardware wallet really safe?  (Read 1435 times)
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December 08, 2019, 03:42:36 AM
 #41

basically no wallet whatsoever is safe from hacking. but I think that now wallet hardware makes it possible to minimize losses. so even though there are wallet hardware owners who experience hacking it's not much in number
Hardware wallet can be controlled properly as you have the private key and you are the one who's facilitating the system. Unlike with exchange and
online wallets as it's own by the exchange or the site owners where it can be hacked and you don't have  any idea when or how things can be done,
the owner can declare bankruptcy or inside job can happened.

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December 08, 2019, 04:21:39 AM
 #42

basically no wallet whatsoever is safe from hacking. but I think that now wallet hardware makes it possible to minimize losses. so even though there are wallet hardware owners who experience hacking it's not much in number
I honestly never heard of hardware wallet being hacked despite rumoured to have some kind of hardware problem that could lead to security breach but it's still too difficult for someone to hack it and will definitely take a lot time. The most possible scenario is probably if the owner somehow forced to send it and that's robbery which definintely have really low chance to happen because no one have clue regarding your crypto possession.

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December 08, 2019, 07:14:38 AM
 #43

basically no wallet whatsoever is safe from hacking. but I think that now wallet hardware makes it possible to minimize losses. so even though there are wallet hardware owners who experience hacking it's not much in number

There is a clear instruction that says, once you have your hardware wallet, you should be the one to set up it. You won't use a hardware wallet that is already set up because basically it is already used by others in which they have the passphrase of it. If you want to secure your funds, it is not enough that you just have a hardware wallet, you need to understand how that hardware wallet is also working. You need to know its limitations even if it already provides the maximum security for your funds because no system is totally safe.

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December 08, 2019, 08:08:42 AM
 #44

I bought my ledger nano in online and that there is a risks of hacking that's why I reset it. If you will buy hardware wallet make sure that you will reset it because you do not have guarantee that the hardware wallet is vulnerable to hackers.
You are probably talking about cases where the hardware wallet arrives with an already pre-created seed and you simple continue using it that way, which you should never do. Things like that can happen if you buy your wallet from some third party and not from the official source or an official Amazon re-seller. You and only you should know the seed, not have one sent to you.

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December 08, 2019, 10:05:42 PM
 #45

I bought my ledger nano in online and that there is a risks of hacking that's why I reset it. If you will buy hardware wallet make sure that you will reset it because you do not have guarantee that the hardware wallet is vulnerable to hackers.
You are probably talking about cases where the hardware wallet arrives with an already pre-created seed and you simple continue using it that way, which you should never do. Things like that can happen if you buy your wallet from some third party and not from the official source or an official Amazon re-seller. You and only you should know the seed, not have one sent to you.
------------------
Hardware wallets are also vulnerable. They are built from the same elements as the entire digital hardware world.

Everyone knows this information:

Cyber-experts from Wallet.fail discovered a number of vulnerabilities in the Trezor and Ledger hardware cryptocurrency wallets. As a result, they managed to carry out a series of successful wallet attacks during the Chaos Communication Congress in Leipzig.

And again, bad software, how could without it:

Experts said that vulnerabilities lie in software and hardware, firmware, software architecture and web interface.

During the demo attacks, the Wallet.fail team managed to extract the PIN and mnemonic core from RAM Trezor, remotely sign the transaction and crack the Ledger Nano S bootloader, and intercept the Ledger Blue PIN.

All that remains for skeptics is to verify this information on their own.

Really, you need to close your eyes to these facts, and continue to convince yourself of the absolute safety of "wallets" and key obsolete technologies?

Alternative here (my topic): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5204368.0
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December 09, 2019, 09:45:46 AM
 #46

and intercept the Ledger Blue PIN.

All that remains for skeptics is to verify this information on their own.

Really, you need to close your eyes to these facts, and continue to convince yourself of the absolute safety of "wallets" and key obsolete technologies?
Nothing is 100% safe and nobody is claiming that it is. But there are safer and less safer options. A hardware wallet is safer than a web and desktop wallet. I don't think this is something that needs arguing about. The vulnerabilities you mention require special hardware and in some cases physical access to the device. Also, the Ledger Blue has been discontinued and is no longer part of Ledger's products portfolio. 

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December 09, 2019, 03:22:29 PM
 #47

and intercept the Ledger Blue PIN.

All that remains for skeptics is to verify this information on their own.

Really, you need to close your eyes to these facts, and continue to convince yourself of the absolute safety of "wallets" and key obsolete technologies?
Nothing is 100% safe and nobody is claiming that it is. But there are safer and less safer options. A hardware wallet is safer than a web and desktop wallet. I don't think this is something that needs arguing about. The vulnerabilities you mention require special hardware and in some cases physical access to the device. Also, the Ledger Blue has been discontinued and is no longer part of Ledger's products portfolio. 
----------------------------
You have to deal with your safety yourself.
Are you sure that all vulnerabilities, all holes - will be unveiled right there. Hang on a noticeboard? What's the point?

The meaning is only to those who are on the white side. People on the black side will not tell you anything. Is it logical?

It’s not a matter of whether the fraudster is tracked or not. Even if they are tracked, even if they are found, this will be only a separate episode. This is not a solution to the problem.

The fraud system itself will not disappear with the capture of any number of these characters. The system itself, contributing to the spread of bitcoin theft, is based on the fact that you "have a safe key" in which the money is.

The key is your concern and your fraud problems.

For this reason, an alternative (my topic) to key technologies is proposed - keyless technologies. But, so far, few people perceive it, everyone is waiting for the "thunder to strike." Who is creative, see here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5204368.0

You hide the key. This works well when you do not need to use bitcoin.

Then, when you use bitcoin, you send the key hash - to some server. The fraudster does not need your key in its original form. He needs this particular key hash. Because the server does not know your key, it knows the key hash.
Further, the scammer makes a phishing attack, receives a key hash, and all your money is almost certainly lost.

Yes, a modern phishing attack provides the same encryption between the client and the phishing server as the original server. Therefore, if they managed to attack you, it means that you will exchange encryption keys with a phishing site, so you have established a “secure” communication channel, but with a phishing site, and pass the hash of your key on it.
It's all.
Woo a la.
And what was the point of storing it in a hardware wallet if it was stolen at the time of its use?

Not convincing? Here are the facts from today.

[10:27, 12/08/2019]
According to the annual Security Intelligence Report prepared by Microsoft, the number of phishing attacks in recent years has grown three and a half times.

What happened?
Are there more nonchalant people or are scammers working better?
Try to answer this question.

Customers of banks, payment systems and telecom operators are increasingly becoming victims of phishers. Internet fraudsters gain access to confidential user data (logins, passwords and plastic cards), directing potential victims to fake sites and services.
Check here:
 https://www.microsoft.com/securityinsights/

Obviously, if you have a key "from the safe where the money is", they will always hunt for this key.

This is a phenomenon. And you need to fight with the phenomenon, not with the fraudster. 2 new ones will always come to the local 1 caught fraudster.
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December 10, 2019, 09:41:02 AM
Merited by Welsh (1)
 #48

You are talking about phishing. Phishing and hacking isn't the same thing. If someone gets phished it is solely his/her fault because he/she wasn't careful enough and entered private information into a fake site without noticing that it is fake. This is not hacking.
You get hacked depending on how secure your hardware and software solutions are and how skilled the person performing the hack is. 

A successful attack would be if someone was able to empty my hardware wallet right now without me knowing how and what happened.
If I enter my seed in a fake software or on a website that is not hacking. That is me being phished because I can't read and understand basic instructions.

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December 11, 2019, 11:28:31 PM
Merited by Welsh (2), vapourminer (1)
 #49

You are talking about phishing. Phishing and hacking isn't the same thing. If someone gets phished it is solely his/her fault because he/she wasn't careful enough and entered private information into a fake site without noticing that it is fake. This is not hacking.
You get hacked depending on how secure your hardware and software solutions are and how skilled the person performing the hack is. 

A successful attack would be if someone was able to empty my hardware wallet right now without me knowing how and what happened.
If I enter my seed in a fake software or on a website that is not hacking. That is me being phished because I can't read and understand basic instructions.
--------------------------------------
Yes, you are absolutely right. I did not specify the difference.

A attack on the TLS protocol with which you establish a secure connection to the server.
This is phishing or hacking, or both.
Indeed, in such a situation, you will give the hashes of your private data, and the https icon will be displayed. Is it possible to know by heart all the sites that you visit. And even if you know, the listener in the communication channel will still do his dirty work.

[15:14, 12/10/2019] A team of researchers from the Worcester Polytechnic Institute (USA), Luebeck University (Germany), and the University of California at San Diego (USA) discovered two vulnerabilities in TPM processors. Exploitation of problems, collectively called TPM-FAIL, allows an attacker to steal cryptographic keys stored in processors.
This chip is used in a variety of devices (from network equipment to cloud servers) and is one of the few processors that have received the CommonCriteria (CC) EAL 4+ classification (comes with built-in protection against attacks on third-party channels).

And then they attack our ECC (cryptography on elliptic curves):
[15:14, 12/10/2019] Researchers have developed a series of attacks, which they call “timing leakage”. The technique is that an attacker can determine the time difference when performing repeated operations TPM, and “view” the data processed inside the protected processor. This technique can be used to extract 256-bit private keys in TPMs that are used by certain digital signature schemes based on elliptic curve algorithms such as ECDSA and ECSchnorr. They are common digital signature schemes used in many modern cryptographically secure operations, such as establishing TLS connections, signing digital certificates and authorizing logins.

“A local attacker can recover an ECDSA key from Intel fTPM in 4-20 minutes, depending on the access level. Attacks can also be carried out remotely in networks by restoring the authentication key of the VPN server in 5 hours, ”the researchers note.

Would such attacks (or not attacks) become possible in keyless encryption systems, in passwordless authentication systems (I mean not a biometric identifier, but a variable digital one)?

Yes, this is not hacking cryptography itself. This is key theft.

Some have already tried to successfully crack cryptography on elliptic curves, so they were immediately classified.
I mean the information with verifiable facts set forth in my 2nd post on the account of December 4, 2019, here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5204368.40
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January 11, 2020, 08:30:35 PM
 #50

and intercept the Ledger Blue PIN.

All that remains for skeptics is to verify this information on their own.

Really, you need to close your eyes to these facts, and continue to convince yourself of the absolute safety of "wallets" and key obsolete technologies?
Nothing is 100% safe and nobody is claiming that it is. But there are safer and less safer options. A hardware wallet is safer than a web and desktop wallet. I don't think this is something that needs arguing about. The vulnerabilities you mention require special hardware and in some cases physical access to the device. Also, the Ledger Blue has been discontinued and is no longer part of Ledger's products portfolio. 
---------------------------
Yes it is.
But that was an example.
Are you sure that the wallet that you use today is safe.
And if tomorrow they find a vulnerability?
And will they also be phased out?
Will you be calm from this?

But let's analyze.
Someone issued a wallet with vulnerability.
Nothing is known about this.
Someone uses this wallet - trusting him their secrets.
Then there is someone, a phenomenon unknown to us, which talks about the poor quality of the wallet.
And if this hero - didn’t tell us anything?
Did he have a right to this?
Yes, I did.
And does the new hero have the right not to tell us about the poor quality of the wallet that we use now.
Yes, there is such a right.

Therefore, our safety is not in our hands, but in the hands of unknown heroes?

Strange, but it is a fact.
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February 01, 2020, 08:21:56 AM
 #51

These two users talking to each other above are probably the same person. If you check their post history they did this in other threads as well. Fake conversations with the intent to promote their service. Even the accounts were created in the space of just a few minutes apart. 

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February 01, 2020, 08:16:20 PM
 #52

These two users talking to each other above are probably the same person. If you check their post history they did this in other threads as well. Fake conversations with the intent to promote their service. Even the accounts were created in the space of just a few minutes apart.  

You are 100 correct.
It can be seen even from airoplane that they just pump up their post and make fake conversation to rank up faster probably

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February 02, 2020, 02:01:24 PM
 #53

It can be seen even from airoplane that they just pump up their post and make fake conversation to rank up faster probably
Their intent is to either get a merit or two from someone and rank up or they are paid to advertise whatever it is they are advertising. Similar to those fake ANN conversations that can be seen everywhere.

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February 25, 2020, 10:13:32 AM
 #54

@witbla, @hwteeer
Yes, go on. You forgot to advertise whatever it is that you wanted to advertise. Let me guess... is it the 'Th***F**d Network' that keep popping up in your previous posts where you quote each other and answer each other's questions?

The witbla and hwteeer accounts are probably run by the same person. All you need to do is check the registration dates and the times they post.

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February 26, 2020, 03:34:51 PM
 #55

@hwteeer, @witbla
Multiple Personality Disorder is a very serious psychological condition. I suggest you visit a doctor before it gets out of hand.
You are already asking yourself questions and than your other personality answers those questions.
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder#1

Don't be ashamed to ask for help, it's OK.

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March 10, 2020, 09:08:19 AM
Merited by vapourminer (2)
 #56

Interesting revelation.
On the subject of which wallet to use, I would add the following.

When using any wallet you choose, you should always take extra precautions:   
1. Your wallet should be used from 1 of your device. It is not recommended to use from 2 or more devices.
2. From that one device which is used for work with a purse it is impossible to perform any other operations in a network, namely:
- never go to your email account;
- do not use GSM connection (this one device must not be your phone at the same time);
- don't have any messengers on it (!);
- only a clean licensed operating system:
- do not use (not once!) social networks (!!!!) in any form, no;
- do not put any antivirus;
- do not browse, never visit any sites (!), it is desirable not to use Google search, known American or unknown Chinese search engines (frankly speaking, I do not know what is safe to use);
3. never access the network from this device without a VPN (or TOR), not displaying your IP on the network.
4. Do not use an Internet access point if at least one other (your) device, home IOT devices, is connected to this access point).

Can you do all this in your real life? I don't think so.

Unfortunately, these are the most superficial security measures. They are not able to protect you 100% from programs stealing your manual movements on the screen of your device (stealing passwords and so on confidential data), because there are known vulnerabilities right in the devices you buy. And the more widespread your device is in the world, the greater the danger it can contain.

I won't lay out all the information on this issue, pay attention at least to the most obvious - Samsung's products, I won't write anything, who is interested in finding the last revelations at the end of 2019 and making conclusions himself.

In general, your safest hardware wallets are really the safest until you start using them. That's when the screen of your device - become the object of increased interest to spyware in your device, sometimes installed there - even before you buy it in the store.

Be vigilant!
Do not trust anyone.
Unfortunately...
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April 27, 2020, 04:12:47 PM
Last edit: April 27, 2020, 04:28:23 PM by vapourminer
 #57

4. Do not use an Internet access point if at least one other (your) device, home IOT devices, is connected to this access point).

good point as anything with access to other machines on the network can sniff packets and otherwise wreak damage to machines on it.

i have several access points for the various stuff.. one for ip cams systems, one for stuff like TVs, one for google/alexa stuff, one for other IoT (washer/dryer etc), one for guests, and one for my wireless computers and such.

none of the items on those access points can see the others. but stuff on the same AP can (usually) see each other as they usually need to.

EDIT: forgot to mention the obvious takeaway.. plus a separate AP for the rig you use the wallet on.
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May 01, 2020, 10:52:50 AM
Merited by vapourminer (4)
 #58

4. Do not use an Internet access point if at least one other (your) device, home IOT devices, is connected to this access point).

good point as anything with access to other machines on the network can sniff packets and otherwise wreak damage to machines on it.

i have several access points for the various stuff.. one for ip cams systems, one for stuff like TVs, one for google/alexa stuff, one for other IoT (washer/dryer etc), one for guests, and one for my wireless computers and such.

none of the items on those access points can see the others. but stuff on the same AP can (usually) see each other as they usually need to.

EDIT: forgot to mention the obvious takeaway.. plus a separate AP for the rig you use the wallet on.
-------------------------------------------
Are you writing this seriously, or is this a joke on the subject?
It's good from a security point of view, but it's too deliberate.

For example, why make a separate point "one for things like google/alexa" when this service already transmits everything it hears to servers, even when you don't use it? All that this service hears is the same thing that anyone who attacks you will catch on the network.

If you're not kidding, you are very concerned about your security. I mean, if you have 10 access points, you probably have 10 routers. For security reasons, all of these routers must be connected to different wired networks on the Internet that are not associated with you or your residential address.
Is that possible?

The fact is that all routers are visible to the attacker. And if he notices 10 routers on one wire, he will immediately know where to look for you. Then it's a matter of technology, because all routers are good targets for a new attack vector.

The situation is even worse in the sense that in 2019 there were a lot of messages (I can even find them if you are seriously interested) about the vulnerability of the hardware of these devices, which has been exploited for 10 years or more!
 And, oddly enough, it was the encryption of the data packets themselves - transmitted over the network. There was something there with encryption keys sewn into the router. In general, in your case, this is also something that you should consider very carefully when choosing a router model.
 
There is no point in putting washing machines and TVs on different access points or guests. This only increases the risk of an attack on you, not decreases it.

But I think you were joking...
vapourminer
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what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?


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May 01, 2020, 01:00:00 PM
 #59

4. Do not use an Internet access point if at least one other (your) device, home IOT devices, is connected to this access point).

good point as anything with access to other machines on the network can sniff packets and otherwise wreak damage to machines on it.

i have several access points for the various stuff.. one for ip cams systems, one for stuff like TVs, one for google/alexa stuff, one for other IoT (washer/dryer etc), one for guests, and one for my wireless computers and such.

none of the items on those access points can see the others. but stuff on the same AP can (usually) see each other as they usually need to.

EDIT: forgot to mention the obvious takeaway.. plus a separate AP for the rig you use the wallet on.
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Are you writing this seriously, or is this a joke on the subject?
It's good from a security point of view, but it's too deliberate.

For example, why make a separate point "one for things like google/alexa" when this service already transmits everything it hears to servers, even when you don't use it? All that this service hears is the same thing that anyone who attacks you will catch on the network.

sniped a bit out but the short answer is no not joking. btw google mini has a hard switch to turn the mike off. and its usually off as i rarely use it.

yes there are a couple routers. along with straight wireless APs that (usually) do not allow connected devices to see each other. im not concerned about the main ip addy from the modem being shared among the various routers and such as i know they can be linked together. im not trying to hide from the government, just script kiddies, IoT crap with little to no security etc.

however your knowledge obviously exceeds mine. any suggestions to improve this? i mean this in all seriousness. im not super paranoid but since most I0T stuff never gets security updates what are my options?
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May 01, 2020, 06:13:41 PM
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 #60

4. Do not use an Internet access point if at least one other (your) device, home IOT devices, is connected to this access point).

good point as anything with access to other machines on the network can sniff packets and otherwise wreak damage to machines on it.

i have several access points for the various stuff.. one for ip cams systems, one for stuff like TVs, one for google/alexa stuff, one for other IoT (washer/dryer etc), one for guests, and one for my wireless computers and such.

none of the items on those access points can see the others. but stuff on the same AP can (usually) see each other as they usually need to.

EDIT: forgot to mention the obvious takeaway.. plus a separate AP for the rig you use the wallet on.
-------------------------------------------
Are you writing this seriously, or is this a joke on the subject?
It's good from a security point of view, but it's too deliberate.

For example, why make a separate point "one for things like google/alexa" when this service already transmits everything it hears to servers, even when you don't use it? All that this service hears is the same thing that anyone who attacks you will catch on the network.

sniped a bit out but the short answer is no not joking. btw google mini has a hard switch to turn the mike off. and its usually off as i rarely use it.

yes there are a couple routers. along with straight wireless APs that (usually) do not allow connected devices to see each other. im not concerned about the main ip addy from the modem being shared among the various routers and such as i know they can be linked together. im not trying to hide from the government, just script kiddies, IoT crap with little to no security etc.

however your knowledge obviously exceeds mine. any suggestions to improve this? i mean this in all seriousness. im not super paranoid but since most I0T stuff never gets security updates what are my options?
------------------------
I am pleasantly surprised by your approach to your own information security. It's nice for me, because the vast majority of people don't deal with this issue. Everyone thinks, "I'm not gonna get caught up in this, there are a lot of people like me..."
What you're doing is respected, and not because your protection is holeless. It's because if everybody else did what you did, it wouldn't be as easy for crooks as it is now. Unfortunately, all people who carelessly about their own information security, whether they want it or not, play on the same side as the scammers. People like you are one in a million, and on my part, your actions are only respected!

Everyone else is becoming a donor to cybercrime. It is very rare that you are attacked as one person, all at once.  Often this happens automatically, with special programs that are constantly growing in quality and can be used by YOUNG MACHINES! This is the reason why news like this appears:

(my post Re: How long will existing encryption last? January 18, 2020, 09:32:13 PM - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5209297.new#new).

- access to you or your data happens regardless of your desire or importance!
This is a fully automatic data collection. The program collects everything and for everyone!
It is done by both government and scammers (usually almost the same).

- On January 14th the FBI confiscated the domain WeLeakInfo.com for providing paid users with access to data leaked to the network as a result of a hack. The operation was conducted jointly with the National Crime Agency (NCA), the Netherlands National Police Corps, the German Federal Criminal Police Office (Bundeskriminalamt) and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
"The website gave users access to a search engine to view confidential information illegally obtained from more than 10,000 data leaks, including more than 12 billion indexed records, including names, email addresses, logins, phone numbers and passwords," said the U.S. Department of Justice.
Excuse me, but that's on one site alone - 12 billion! More than we live at this time!

And the worst part is that all major corporations are doing it, without exception. I don't want to give all the information here, but I'll give you one fresh example:

- Facebook tried to buy Pegasus software from Israeli spyware manufacturer NSO Group Technologies in order to monitor the activity of iOS device users.
According to court documents published by NSO Group, Facebook intended to buy the spy software Pegasus, which can extract user data from cloud storage of Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft. The data is being exported, giving software operators access to confidential user data. The data collected includes all messages and photos, login credentials, and device location information.
NSO Group has a very mixed reputation for selling its products not only to law enforcement agencies, but also to authoritarian governments that persecute human rights defenders and journalists. But according to the CEO of NSO Group Shalev Hulio, two representatives of Facebook contacted the company in October 2017 and intended to acquire the right to use certain features of Pegasus.
And if you still have illusions about the methods of protection offered to us by "our defenders", for example, 2FA, then it is not true, they are easy to do, read my post: "Re: Keyless encryption and passwordless authentication March 09, 2020, 11:46:56 AM":
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5204368.40.

All protection is an illusion of security.
Your main defense is not to arouse interest in professional attackers. From this point of view, I would advise you to reduce the number of access points, especially if they are via a wi-fi.

I'm not a professional, I'm just keeping a close eye on the news on cyber security...
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