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Author Topic: FIRST Peer-2-Peer betting website. NO HOUSE & NO DEALER 1$ UNLIMITED GAINS  (Read 1789 times)
TwitchySeal
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January 13, 2020, 11:21:00 PM
 #121

Again as i told you, the "provably fair" system does not prevent me from cheating.
If you implement it properly, it should prevent anyone from being able to manipulate or know the outcome of a bet before all the players.

Give me personalised solution that will prevent me from knowing the result in advance and also prevent me to create accounts to bet against my clients. If you have a viable solution for that, i WILL program it. I m waiting for your answer.
Allow each player to choose their own seed and then use those seeds to determine the result of each game.  I don't think you would need a server seed since you will always have 2 or more player seeds, I could be wrong about that.
After the game is complete, reveal all seeds used so that players can verify the result independently.

I've pointed you towards a bunch of resources that will help you figure out how to do it.  There are plenty of developers around here that are experts in provably fair solutions that I'm sure would be happy to give you feed back.  Of course this is assuming you're able to accept constructive criticism without lashing out and insulting the person trying to help you.

In regards to ticket prices and house edge, check out my calculation, you haven t said anything about it. As i said before, more tickets, more chances to win.

If you're taking 3% of every bet, your average players EV will be 97%.  If some players find a way increase their EV, other players EV will drop below 97%, just like any other p.

I'm not interested in debating this any more.


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betroom.eu (OP)
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January 14, 2020, 12:45:18 AM
 #122

Again as i told you, the "provably fair" system does not prevent me from cheating.
If you implement it properly, it should prevent anyone from being able to manipulate or know the outcome of a bet before all the players.

Give me personalised solution that will prevent me from knowing the result in advance and also prevent me to create accounts to bet against my clients. If you have a viable solution for that, i WILL program it. I m waiting for your answer.
Allow each player to choose their own seed and then use those seeds to determine the result of each game.  I don't think you would need a server seed since you will always have 2 or more player seeds, I could be wrong about that.
After the game is complete, reveal all seeds used so that players can verify the result independently.

I've pointed you towards a bunch of resources that will help you figure out how to do it.  There are plenty of developers around here that are experts in provably fair solutions that I'm sure would be happy to give you feed back.  Of course this is assuming you're able to accept constructive criticism without lashing out and insulting the person trying to help you.

In regards to ticket prices and house edge, check out my calculation, you haven t said anything about it. As i said before, more tickets, more chances to win.

If you're taking 3% of every bet, your average players EV will be 97%.  If some players find a way increase their EV, other players EV will drop below 97%, just like any other p.

I'm not interested in debating this any more.



i know how to implement it but there s a big problem, as i told you before, with Rocket Crash. In order to keep the game interactive, as it is right now, in the sense that people jump off the rocket in real time, i need to "know" the number before the player does. Why? Because i divide that number into smaller parts such that i can send each unit to the player and not send him the whole number cause he would know when to jump. So, for example, say the provably fair algo generates the number 62. I am sending each tenth of a second 1 unit to the player so that after 62 tenths (6.2 seconds) the player gets to 62, where the rocket crashes. I cannot send the whole number cause a hacker will crack the system, he will know when the rocket will crash and use it to his advantage. That s why i send the number bit by bit. Players can jump off the rocket until the rocket gets to the crashing point (62 in this case). The last person to jump off the rocket wins. The problem with the provably fair system comes now with the way the game is structured. I need to know the number in advance in order to divide it and send it, bit by bit, unit by unit, to the user. If i don t know the number in advance, i can t construct the game dynamically as it is right now. It would be a static game where the user places the bet before the random number generation.  I want the game to be dynamic, to allow players to jump off the rocket in real time, not to choose numbers beforehand and then wait. Do you have any solution for this?

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January 14, 2020, 12:58:12 AM
 #123

Do you have any solution for this?
I've pointed you towards a bunch of resources that will help you figure out how to do it.  There are plenty of developers around here that are experts in provably fair solutions that I'm sure would be happy to give you feed back.  Of course this is assuming you're able to accept constructive criticism without lashing out and insulting the person trying to help you.

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betroom.eu (OP)
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January 14, 2020, 01:01:11 AM
 #124

Do you have any solution for this?
I've pointed you towards a bunch of resources that will help you figure out how to do it.  There are plenty of developers around here that are experts in provably fair solutions that I'm sure would be happy to give you feed back.  Of course this is assuming you're able to accept constructive criticism without lashing out and insulting the person trying to help you.

I m not lashing anyone, it s just the structure of the game that does not allow for a fully "fair" solution. There s also the part where i "guarantee" my users that i do not create account to bet against them. I don t think anyone can help me with this. If someone can, i m going to gladly accept advice.

TwitchySeal
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January 14, 2020, 01:27:07 AM
 #125

I m not lashing anyone

Couple examples:

Are you on drugs or something? You are clearly out of your fucking mind to even state stupid shit like this. If you want to at least "look" intelligent, better shut up.

Quote
This guy is as stupid as they come.


Dismantling your shit:

I m not sure if you are hired by a casino to do this yourself but you sure sound like it.




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betroom.eu (OP)
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January 14, 2020, 07:30:15 AM
 #126

Do you have any solution for this?
I've pointed you towards a bunch of resources that will help you figure out how to do it.  There are plenty of developers around here that are experts in provably fair solutions that I'm sure would be happy to give you feed back.  Of course this is assuming you're able to accept constructive criticism without lashing out and insulting the person trying to help you.

Which are those resources you pointed out to me? There s not a single reference.

Regarding this:


Quote from: betroom.eu on Today at 01:01:11 AM
I m not lashing anyone

Couple examples:

Quote from: betroom.eu on January 09, 2020, 08:34:35 AM
Are you on drugs or something? You are clearly out of your fucking mind to even state stupid shit like this. If you want to at least "look" intelligent, better shut up.

Quote
This guy is as stupid as they come.


Quote from: betroom.eu on January 09, 2020, 08:34:35 AM
Dismantling your shit:

Quote from: betroom.eu on January 09, 2020, 08:34:35 AM
I m not sure if you are hired by a casino to do this yourself but you sure sound like it.



I feel you want to hurt rather than help. When i asked direct questions you made a detour, you didn t answer them. Definitely you had no solution to the Rocket Crash problem that i need the random number in advance to sustain the kind of game play available right now, you mumbled something unrelated when i told you that buying more tickets means a better winning chance (indeed means less winning chances for the rest, but for somebody to win, somebody else has to lose). Accept true statements as they come, admit they are true and come up with solutions, don t just mumble around. I m waiting for solutions and direct references which you failed to give.

TwitchySeal
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January 14, 2020, 08:06:41 AM
 #127

Which are those resources you pointed out to me? There s not a single reference.

Seriously?

Check out https://cryptogambling.org/  or go visit their thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2178857.0, ask them what they think about relying on the built in javascript
Code:
math.random()
instead of a provably fair algorithm.

Do some googling.  Research your competition, figure out why some have been around for years and maintain a great reputations with a solid player base and others are ghost towns (or already folded) and have a bad reputation. 

Find the people that developed the successful sites and ask them for advice, many of them would be very willing to help you out - but only if you stop being such an asshole.


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January 14, 2020, 09:56:38 AM
 #128

Which are those resources you pointed out to me? There s not a single reference.

Seriously?

Check out https://cryptogambling.org/  or go visit their thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2178857.0, ask them what they think about relying on the built in javascript
Code:
math.random()
instead of a provably fair algorithm.

Do some googling.  Research your competition, figure out why some have been around for years and maintain a great reputations with a solid player base and others are ghost towns (or already folded) and have a bad reputation. 

Find the people that developed the successful sites and ask them for advice, many of them would be very willing to help you out - but only if you stop being such an asshole.



I started liking you that much, i might even start a signature campaign with you alone.

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January 14, 2020, 10:14:24 AM
 #129

If you're taking 3% of every bet, your average players EV will be 97%.  If some players find a way increase their EV, other players EV will drop below 97%, just like any other p.

This was what I thought every time I see a PVP game, it attracts me until I see what the commission is. I think at least you have to change the marketing. It is fine to say no house,,, but not fine to say no house edge when you do take a commission. 3% commission is a lot compared to 1% house edge, in my opinion.

You have to add a prize pool just to make it neutral EV Smiley

.
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betroom.eu (OP)
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January 20, 2020, 04:37:25 AM
 #130

Sorry for the downtime, had some issues with the servers, now we re back live. New posts features and posts coming up today, stay tuned!

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January 20, 2020, 01:15:34 PM
 #131

Betroom is officially Provably Fair



Have you wondered if the outcome of a bet is changed AFTER you placed the bet? Besides being a "No Dealer & No House Policy" platform, Betroom comes in support of its players with an additional method of proving that the TRUTH is the ONLY option on the table.

For a detailed explanation on how the verification system works and why it's important, check out our Knowledge Base page.

The method is now available for the Rocket Crash game and will soon be available for the rest of the games.

Let's change the betting industry for the better. Only TOGETHER we can achieve this. To support us and our revolution, YOUR revolution, LOG IN or CREATE AN ACCOUNT FIRST and PLAY !

If you feel we can do something to make this a better experience for you, don t hesitate, drop us an email at support@betroom.eu and we'll take notice of your feedback.

TwitchySeal
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January 21, 2020, 04:25:21 AM
 #132

Betroom is officially Provably Fair



Have you wondered if the outcome of a bet is changed AFTER you placed the bet? Besides being a "No Dealer & No House Policy" platform, Betroom comes in support of its players with an additional method of proving that the TRUTH is the ONLY option on the table.

For a detailed explanation on how the verification system works and why it's important, check out our Knowledge Base page.

The method is now available for the Rocket Crash game and will soon be available for the rest of the games.

Let's change the betting industry for the better. Only TOGETHER we can achieve this. To support us and our revolution, YOUR revolution, LOG IN or CREATE AN ACCOUNT FIRST and PLAY !

If you feel we can do something to make this a better experience for you, don t hesitate, drop us an email at support@betroom.eu and we'll take notice of your feedback.

Hey, great decision.

I won't have time to verify it's actually provably fair for a few days, but I'm impressed you've taken steps to make the attempt nonetheless.

As I said before, be prepared to be scrutinized.

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..PLAY NOW!..
betroom.eu (OP)
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January 21, 2020, 05:24:17 AM
 #133

I got my loyal sidekick in you, it cannot get better. Check it out of course, i also posted the implementation, here it is: https://github.com/alexcambose/provably-fair-example
The link takes you to github where the code resides. I m not the author of the code, Alex Cambose is, but i used it for myself too.
To make things even smoother for you, i will show you how it works - in pictures (chart below).


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January 22, 2020, 04:06:23 AM
Merited by TwitchySeal (10), DarkStar_ (5), Stunna (4)
 #134

Betroom is officially Provably Fair

I'm always interested in provably fair systems, but I don't see how this is remotely is. The first problem is there's a real lack of information/example (as in a concrete example specific to the game), which makes verification more or less impossible even if it was provably fair. But besides that, I don't even see how the method you are using even attempts to solve the problem.

So as I understand it, at a high-level you're trying to do something like:

* Server generates a server-seed
* Server gives clients a hash of the server-seed (to prove it doesn't change)
* Each clients provide the server a client-seed after they've seen the server-seed hash

And then the game result is computed as a function of (ServerSeed, ClientSeeds).

---

If I'm understanding right, that doesn't solve anything at all -- because if any client was controlled by the server, it could pick a client-seed that will make it win.

--

The only way you're (sanely) going to get a game like this to be provably fair, is have each client have a secret -- send a hash of the secret to the server (which broadcasts to all other clients). Then when the client has seen the hash of all other clients seeds, reveals it's own seed. Then the game result is computed based on all the client seeds.


P.S. I'll PM you a security problem i (think i) found

P.P.S. How come your site says there's 470 people online? Surely that can't be real?

Check out gamblingsitefinder.com for a decent list/rankings of crypto casinos. Note: I have no affiliation or interest in it, and don't even agree with all the rankings ... but it's the only uncorrupted review site I'm aware of.
TwitchySeal
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January 22, 2020, 04:26:53 AM
 #135

The only way you're (sanely) going to get a game like this to be provably fair, is have each client have a secret -- send a hash of the secret to the server (which broadcasts to all other clients). Then when the client has seen the hash of all other clients seeds, reveals it's own seed. Then the game result is computed based on all the client seeds.

Would it be possible to do this without a server seed? (assuming we have multiple client seeds)


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.
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betroom.eu (OP)
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January 22, 2020, 04:45:02 AM
 #136

Betroom is officially Provably Fair

I'm always interested in provably fair systems, but I don't see how this is remotely is. The first problem is there's a real lack of information/example (as in a concrete example specific to the game), which makes verification more or less impossible even if it was provably fair. But besides that, I don't even see how the method you are using even attempts to solve the problem.

So as I understand it, at a high-level you're trying to do something like:

* Server generates a server-seed
* Server gives clients a hash of the server-seed (to prove it doesn't change)
* Each clients provide the server a client-seed after they've seen the server-seed hash

And then the game result is computed as a function of (ServerSeed, ClientSeeds).

---

If I'm understanding right, that doesn't solve anything at all -- because if any client was controlled by the server, it could pick a client-seed that will make it win.

--

The only way you're (sanely) going to get a game like this to be provably fair, is have each client have a secret -- send a hash of the secret to the server (which broadcasts to all other clients). Then when the client has seen the hash of all other clients seeds, reveals it's own seed. Then the game result is computed based on all the client seeds.


P.S. I'll PM you a security problem i (think i) found

P.P.S. How come your site says there's 470 people online? Surely that can't be real?



P.P.S. How come your site says there's 470 people online? Surely that can't be real?

We are running marketing large campaigns on many websites and get traffic all the time. "Online" means visitors, not users that are signed in.

P.S. I'll PM you a security problem i (think i) found

Solved that just now, thank you so much!

The only way you're (sanely) going to get a game like this to be provably fair, is have each client have a secret -- send a hash of the secret to the server (which broadcasts to all other clients). Then when the client has seen the hash of all other clients seeds, reveals it's own seed. Then the game result is computed based on all the client seeds.

This won t solve the problem neither. As i explained to my arch-enemy TwitchySeal, with this game in particular, since it s a reactive game, the server must know the result in advance, so this won t work either. Let me explain how the game is made so that you know the actual problem and then you might help me find a solution to this - i m referring to the Rocket Crash game.

1. Clients buy tickets to join the game.
2. Once there are at least 10 players that bought tickets for that event, the countdown starts.
3. In the mean time clients can choose the client seed and send it to the server.
4. Server computes server seed + client seed + nonce into one piece of string and the function generates the random number when the timer strikes zero.
5. This number is sent SEQUENTIALLY (unit by unit every tenth of a second) to clients because if the final value is sent, then with a small hack clients will know what the actual crash value will be.
6. Game starts and clients jump off the rocket IN REAL TIME.

The problem comes at "5" because the server MUST know the crash value BEFORE game start in order to divide it and send it unit by unit to the players. If players would not jump in real time, then yes, what you are saying is correct and could be implemented so that a result would not be known by any party before the actual event took place. In this particular case, the server does not
need to control the client seed since it "knows" the actual crash value in advance.
So, with this particular game, if you have a solution to it, please let me know and if it s real, i ll implement it.

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January 22, 2020, 04:56:11 AM
 #137

Would it be possible to do this without a server seed? (assuming we have multiple client seeds)

Yeah, there's no need for a server-seed if it's just a peer-vs-peer gambling game.

This won t solve the problem neither.

Hmm. I could explain to you a solution to make it work -- but before I do that -- do you see the problem with the current way you're doing it? Do you see why it's not actually provably fair -- and offers players no additional guarantees?

Check out gamblingsitefinder.com for a decent list/rankings of crypto casinos. Note: I have no affiliation or interest in it, and don't even agree with all the rankings ... but it's the only uncorrupted review site I'm aware of.
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January 22, 2020, 05:04:31 AM
 #138

Would it be possible to do this without a server seed? (assuming we have multiple client seeds)

Yeah, there's no need for a server-seed if it's just a peer-vs-peer gambling game.

This won t solve the problem neither.

Hmm. I could explain to you a solution to make it work -- but before I do that -- do you see the problem with the current way you're doing it? Do you see why it's not actually provably fair -- and offers players no additional guarantees?

Hmm. I could explain to you a solution to make it work -- but before I do that -- do you see the problem with the current way you're doing it? Do you see why it's not actually provably fair -- and offers players no additional guarantees?

Since the server knows the result before, then it s clear that neither mine nor the solution presented by you above are NOT actual solutions. So yes, please present me with a viable solution that will allow the server to send a random number sequentially to the players that jump in real time while the server does not know the end value in advance. Thank you.

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January 22, 2020, 05:17:23 AM
 #139

So yes, please present me with a viable solution that will allow the server to send a random number sequentially to the players that jump in real time while the server does not know the end value in advance. Thank you.

It's your job to find a solution. 

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MULTI
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1500+
CASINO GAMES
CRYPTO EXCLUSIVE
CLUBHOUSE
FAST & SECURE
PAYMENTS
.
..PLAY NOW!..
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January 22, 2020, 05:29:28 AM
 #140

So yes, please present me with a viable solution that will allow the server to send a random number sequentially to the players that jump in real time while the server does not know the end value in advance. Thank you.

It's your job to find a solution. 

Oh, i see now. So you brought in your companion. So let me get it, you guys don t really present solutions, do you? I mean, you could go off bragging all day why there hasn t been a cancer cure yet or why the earth spins instead of staying still, but when it comes to solving real world problems, you just disappear into the night. As far as this goes, i can implement your buddy s solution up there but again, it won t solve the problem since the server needs to know the crash value in advance and since the game is played after the value of the server is being generated. If you wanna be of any help, give me a solution. If not, let it be.

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