Who needs Satoshi Nakamoto principles?

[flamehowk]

You cannot call it a centralized process as anyone can join the mining process if you are able to spend money to participate in the issue of BTCitcoin and you cannot expect to have the share of the incentive without doing anything and if you want to participate you can still run the full node  .

It requires a lot of money. I have a computer, but I can not afford a miner. And many people in the world too. I do not refuse to have my computer do the calculations all day. He is already on around the clock. For example - torrent works constantly. Distributes ... But I can not connect to mining, because for this I need an expensive ASIC.
For this reason, I consider some people’s statements that “anyone can connect” are hypocritical. Not everyone lives in rich countries and has a large salary. However, the rich will never be sympathetic to the poor, which is why I asked a question. What are we doing? Resigning ourselves to what rules the rich have set for ALL? Or do we make the same rules for everyone ?? Did not Satoshi show in his Whitepaper that he was striving to make the same rules for EVERYONE?

[flamehowk]

While your algorithm could resist ASIC/GPU/FPGA/CLOUD/MAINFRAME, but it doesn't solve all problem.

1. Rich people still could buy lots of CPU and build mining farm
2. You're replacing possibility of monopoly from ASIC/GPU manufacture to CPU manufacture (Intel, AMD and ARM)
3. You haven't solve hashrate domination by mining pool and mining farm

1) Yes you are right. But the important thing is not that rich people can buy a lot of computers and mine a lot of coins. The important thing is that this does not make it impossible to mine the coins of all other people in the world! But now mining is available only to those who have a lot of money.

2) No. CPUs are being monopolized ALREADY. Moreover, a long time ago - long before the birth of Bitcoin.
It is much more important here that mining will no longer take away the lion's share of all produced electricity from the whole world.

3) You are mistaken ...
Look at what scheme a regular pool works:



Here, ordinary users are forced to look for a Hash in the WHOLE range of nonce values. And users who are connected to the pool search only in the selected segment. Hence the gain in the speed of finding a suitable hash and a greater total reward.

And now see how the pool will work if the POW algorithm is based on my algorithm:



Are you see? Ordinary users search EXACTLY in the same range of values as users who are connected to the pool.
So - there will be no gain from pool.

[DooMAD]

Ok
What do you say if I tell you that I came up with and developed such a POW algorithm that solves all these problems?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5207996.0

I'd say the same thing I always say.  Write the code, put it on a testnet, let people actually use it and prove beyond all reasonable doubt that it does what you claim.  Until then, no one is seriously going to support a change of algorithm to something unknown and totally untested in the wild.

[Theb]

As we all know, mining is now completely centralized. Big money buys expensive equipment in the form of ASIC / GPU / FPGA devices and deprives everyone else of the right to participate in the issue of cryptocurrencies.

Normal people see it as an expensive item while business-minded people can see ways on getting that hardware on different ways without braking the bank. From buying second hand rigs to repairing them they can do anything on what they currently have just to participate on having a piece of that pie. Yes big mining farms are getting all the big pieces but they aren't the only ones benefiting from each block and lot of early adopters have gotten the biggest slices in the Bitcoin industry. If you still think that you can't afford to mine Bitcoin then I think it would be better for you just to buy them in an exchange and ride the trend for you to profit.
 

[bdivrik]

Mining is completely centralized. Now I'm going to ask you a question. Why are powerful miners gaining more? I think a system can be established where everyone will be equal. If each IP address gets a certain share. A system like this already exists. Lightnin Network. LN may be popular in the future. Not everyone has access to expensive mining equipment.

[squatter]

Apparently you live in a very rich country and do not know how people live in those countries where the monthly income is $ 100. How many years will I have to starve to buy a miner? Count ...

"One CPU one vote" just refers to voting on the current consensus, regarding the best blockchain. It's not a "vote" in a particularly meaningful or political sense. Miners are just abiding by the protocol, publishing blocks based on rational incentives. You would do exactly the same if you were a miner, so you're really not missing out on anything.

The industrialization of mining just means that for most of us, directly buying bitcoins is usually a better way to invest.

[flamehowk]

I'd say the same thing I always say.  Write the code, put it on a testnet, let people actually use it and prove beyond all reasonable doubt that it does what you claim.  Until then, no one is seriously going to support a change of algorithm to something unknown and totally untested in the wild.

Am I not suggesting the same thing? Am I asking for a change?
Now it’s just about working out this algorithm and using it to fix all the flaws. Moreover, I think that no one will really change the core of Bitcoin, so my algorithm, most likely, can only get life in the form of Altcoin. However, we are talking about the fact that this Altcoin should become the new reincarnation of Bitcoin. Not the Bitcoin that we have now, but the one who saw Satoshi in his view.
In fact, I have already done a lot of work on this algorithm. If I continue to work on it alone, I will need a lot of time. Therefore, I turned to the community for help. I need specialists who can help implement this algorithm in Bitcoin, as well as a little financial support. For this reason, I’m trying to understand how much the modern crypto community needs it ... Is it ready to do something for the sake of improving Bitcoin ... Or it all ended with the banal desire to make more money from trading cryptocurrencies and mining.

I live in a country where there is a war and a severe economic crisis. I've already lost everything - property, housing, business. All that I have is my inventions and developments. Now I need to look for a way to survive. I have two options - either I will find financing for one of my projects, or I will have to leave for labor emigration to another country.
Therefore, the question is simple: is the modern crypto community ready to support the continuation of this development or not?
If I leave to work, I will spend 12 hours a day on hard work, for the sake of $ 500 a month salary. I will not have the strength to continue developing this project. He will stop.

In general - I made my contribution. I have devoted a lot of time to this issue over the past 3 years. I found the perfect solution for the POW protocol, which can change everything in the world of cryptocurrencies. And I would be glad if there were those who are ready to support this development.
Now I work alone and I need very little money to survive. And I am ready to limit myself to this and work on this project further. But without support, I cannot continue.
I hope for your understanding...
Thank you all.

[Thekool1s]

Why not launch a gofundme campaign? Tell us more about your educational background etc. Also, Publish your code on github just like @DooMad said it will allow people to review your code and even improve it, Just like you want. Remember if your algorithm is really that good then expect donations and support from the community. Right now you sound disparate, you may have something which could change the mining scene but you need to be open about your work. You can't claim things without letting others review it. I wish you the best of luck, its a tough world out there.

[luppecuppe]

Satoshi invented bitcoin. Satoshi showed a way. I'm thinking now. Have we been able to take Satoshi's philosophy forward? So are the developments positive or negative? Or are we still where we started? More people know about the blockchain. So which problem did he solve?

[Velkro]

No they don't need all of Satoshi's principles, his system isn't perfect, no system is. Bitcoin wasn't designed to last forever,

Lets say its true.
Bitcoin is people actually. People tend to forget that. There are 3 sides of this, Developers, Miners, Nodes operators/community. Each side works to benefit Bitcoin, if something is flawed or need fix/rework. People will do this, one of these groups or all of them at once.
Its perfect because its adjustable like people are, and thats why people succeed and they adapt to do so all the time.

[Joel_Jantsen]

Does the modern cryptocurrency community need this principle of Satoshi Nakamoto?

What constitutes as the modern cryptocurrency community? The traders? Whales? Or a small bunch of developers and enthusiasts who actually care about the protocol? To be honest, the vast majority of the bitcoin community doesn't have the mentality to change anything or even follow what's being written by Satoshi. Take CoinBase for example. His solution is perfect? No. He gave you the basic architecture to start with? Yes! It's upto you to develop on top of it.

Maybe it's time to abandon it and admit that ONLY money should always release new money?[/b]

Or you can just stop using bitcoins and create your own coin or use one of those shit-coins out there? Speak for yourself.

[mk4]

Yes. He was an ordinary person, just like me and you. And he was not able to calculate everything during his lifetime, so the Bitcoin protocol is not perfect, and we need to work on it.

But I did not ask about the protocol, I asked about the implementation of a specific principle, which was indicated at the beginning of the topic. After all, this principle was not provided by the Bitcoin protocol. Therefore, I am interested - does the crypto community believe that this principle needs to be implemented?

At the same time, I ask the inhabitants of rich countries to refrain from thinking that they are the only ones in the world. In the world there are many people who live in poor countries, but they are the same participants in the system and have the right not only to use cryptocurrencies, but also to participate in their emission.
I am wrong?

I get what you're saying, but bitcoin wasn't created to move wealth from the rich to the poor. Whatever we do, people with more wealth will almost always have more opportunities. Found some opportunity to make more money? You bet they're going to grab that opportunity; and yes it applies with bitcoin mining. And not only with bitcoin, but with other cryptocurrencies too; and not only that, it's the same even with proof of stake!

[flamehowk]

I get what you're saying, but bitcoin wasn't created to move wealth from the rich to the poor. Whatever we do, people with more wealth will almost always have more opportunities. Found some opportunity to make more money? You bet they're going to grab that opportunity; and yes it applies with bitcoin mining. And not only with bitcoin, but with other cryptocurrencies too; and not only that, it's the same even with proof of stake!

Am I talking about taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor? No, I'm just saying that the poor must have a real opportunity to mine the cryptocurrency.
I’m not even saying that the rich could not mine anymore. Let thousands of computers buy and mine a lot of coins. But let the poor have the opportunity to mine at least what a single computer or smartphone that a poor person, or a poor family, can buy.

Can't you see what is happening now? Now the problem is that poor people can’t mine at all. A rich person just buys a miner and he already has a lot of cryptocurrencies. And the poor man cannot mine it, he can only buy it from the rich. And buy at the price that rich people put up on the crypto exchange. And they act in collusion and regulate prices in such a way as to extract everything from the poor to the last penny.

Don't you understand what I was talking about?

What is wrong with having a poor person mine cryptocurrency?
For example, I am poor. I have an incentive to do something useful. I have many inventions that I cannot realize because I am poor and rich people do not want to invest in high technology - they are looking for financial pyramids and various fraudulent projects with expensive advertising.
What will be bad if I can mine coins, which will bring me a little income, and at the same time, I can do development work useful for all people?
And now I do not have such an opportunity. I have to work stupid and hard work all day to earn a piece of bread. As a result, no one benefits from what I do.

Now ask yourself - will a rich person engage in development that is useful to all of humanity? To invent? Come up with? To create?
Not! He has no incentive. He is rich without it. He has everything. He only wants more money, but he does not want to create, to invent, to develop something.

But doesn’t it become better for rich people to live if poor people come up with something new? Why don't the rich allow the poor to at least slightly weaken the slave chain so that poor people can do more good for everyone?

[flamehowk]

Why not launch a gofundme campaign?

I checked your idea. GoFundMe does not work in my country. Same issue with Kickstarter and Indiegogo. I can create a company, but I cannot withdraw money to my account.
I have many developments and inventions. I’ve been thinking about crowdfunding for a long time. But for now it is not available to me. I do not have good friends abroad who can accept money into their account and then transfer it to me. Therefore, I can not use the full power of crowdfunding platforms.

[IadixDev]

I get what you're saying, but bitcoin wasn't created to move wealth from the rich to the poor. Whatever we do, people with more wealth will almost always have more opportunities. Found some opportunity to make more money? You bet they're going to grab that opportunity; and yes it applies with bitcoin mining. And not only with bitcoin, but with other cryptocurrencies too; and not only that, it's the same even with proof of stake!

Am I talking about taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor? No, I'm just saying that the poor must have a real opportunity to mine the cryptocurrency.
I’m not even saying that the rich could not mine anymore. Let thousands of computers buy and mine a lot of coins. But let the poor have the opportunity to mine at least what a single computer or smartphone that a poor person, or a poor family, can buy.

Can't you see what is happening now? Now the problem is that poor people can’t mine at all. A rich person just buys a miner and he already has a lot of cryptocurrencies. And the poor man cannot mine it, he can only buy it from the rich. And buy at the price that rich people put up on the crypto exchange. And they act in collusion and regulate prices in such a way as to extract everything from the poor to the last penny.

Don't you understand what I was talking about?

What is wrong with having a poor person mine cryptocurrency?
For example, I am poor. I have an incentive to do something useful. I have many inventions that I cannot realize because I am poor and rich people do not want to invest in high technology - they are looking for financial pyramids and various fraudulent projects with expensive advertising.
What will be bad if I can mine coins, which will bring me a little income, and at the same time, I can do development work useful for all people?
And now I do not have such an opportunity. I have to work stupid and hard work all day to earn a piece of bread. As a result, no one benefits from what I do.

Now ask yourself - will a rich person engage in development that is useful to all of humanity? To invent? Come up with? To create?
Not! He has no incentive. He is rich without it. He has everything. He only wants more money, but he does not want to create, to invent, to develop something.

But doesn’t it become better for rich people to live if poor people come up with something new? Why don't the rich allow the poor to at least slightly weaken the slave chain so that poor people can do more good for everyone?

For me those characteristics are essential for a coin that want to reach the mass. It seems to me lots of people who went into bitcoin first is because they could mine it with their own hardware, and benefits from it even a little bit relatively to the total hash rate of the network. There was no exchange or KYC or anything, just need a cpu able to compute hashes at decent rate, and you could get some bitcoins.

Im not sure if Its only a problem of pow algorithm, but it seem fixing this would be a good step in the direction.

[IadixDev]

...
Look at what scheme a regular pool works:




Here, ordinary users are forced to look for a Hash in the WHOLE range of nonce values. And users who are connected to the pool search only in the selected segment. Hence the gain in the speed of finding a suitable hash and a greater total reward.

You sure this is correct ?

The stratum protocol add more nonces in the coinbase tx, with one unique nonce per worker, and the rolling happen in another nonce, the two are in the coinbase tx, additionally to the block header nonce.

All miners works on a full range nonce2, and have a unique nonce1 in the coinbase. So They all work on slightly different blocks with a full 32bits nonce range.

Not sure it affects the decentralisation principle or the main reasonning though

[hatshepsut93]

Maybe it's time to abandon it and admit that ONLY money should always release new money?[/b]

You're a newbie and clearly don't understand the point of mining. Hint: it's not creation of new coins, that's just a nice little side effect. The point of mining is synchronizing the network in such way that cheating is impossible, because it's unsustainable. It really doesn't matter how many entities are mining, they have no choice but to follow the rules of the network and don't try to cheat with forks. In fact, one CPU - one vote is less secure, because its easy to create botnets and attack the network for free with stolen hashpower.

[mk4]

Sure it's definitely unfortunate no doubt about that. But going back to my point, there's really nothing we can do about this. If a poor person can mine through a cellphone, what's stopping a rich person from mining through a thousand cellphones? If a poor person can start one business, what's stopping a rich person from opening a hundred businesses that can rival the poor person's business? Just examples. Unless you're going to KYC every single miner so  you can really know that you're limiting your users to a number of devices to limit the hashrate they're using, you really can't fix this, especially in a decentralized manner.

[Thekool1s]

I checked your idea. GoFundMe does not work in my country. Same issue with Kickstarter and Indiegogo. I can create a company, but I cannot withdraw money to my account.

Why not tell us more about yourself here? Create a thread about yourself, your educational background and post it in the Project Development board. Your idea is a noble one. But I do see some problems with this concept. What if tomorrow AMD and Intel decided to hike up their CPU prices? The mining again will get out from the reach of the "poor". Basically you can't control the top 1% they will always end up in the power as they have the means to do so... Just look at the GPU shortages as an example. During the peak, the GPUs were going for almost double the standard price and it can happen with CPUs as well, that's what essentially happens in "Free-Markets". Supply and demand dictate the price. Even if you made your algorithms only to work on P4 (Pentium 4), The rich will get their hands on more P4s and we will end up in a similar situation. Some of my suggestions will be to create a milestone list, get an escrow a trusted one from the forum and let them handle your donations. So that they will release the donations once you reach your listed milestones. Again Good luck!

[IadixDev]

Maybe it's time to abandon it and admit that ONLY money should always release new money?[/b]

it's not creation of new coins, that's just a nice little side effect it really doesn't matter how many entities are mining, they have no choice but to follow the rules of the network and don't try to cheat with forks. In fact, one CPU - one vote is less secure, because its easy to create botnets and attack the network for free with stolen hashpower.

Normally the only thing they have power on is resolving double spents or delaying/censoring transaction.

pow is still good way to manage coin emission, and block reward is necessary if miners have to engage some operative cost to mine a block.