Interacting with fiat institutions [such as the SEC], a guide

[AnonyMint]

AnonyMint seems to be asserting that any random 'authority' has proper jurisdiction and venue over anything they claim to, unless they themselves assert that they do not.

What I wrote was the logical NAND (dual) of your misconstruction. But nevermind because it is useless for someone with highly developed logic skills to converse with people who don't.

Now you're thrashing. What you actually wrote was:

because the authority must have the power to indemnify against all laws and jurisdictions to which MPOE is subject to

There is no way the SEC can indemnify against all laws and jurisdictions to which MPOE is subject to, as MPOE is an entity within nexuses associated with laws and jurisdictions over which the SEC has no power whatsoever. This can be broadened by replacing SEC with 'any agency', as no such agency can indemnify against all other laws and jurisdictions. It is a tautological impossibility.

Exactly. You still haven't identified that my logic was consistent and yours was not.

This is why most people can't be excellent programmers.

You have no effing idea to whom you are speaking.

Ditto.

I have met many programmers who can write some code but who aren't exceptional when it comes to creativity and algorithmic production. And who can't keep up with my logic. They slow me down.

The real value in open source is that every person can have a brilliant insight at least once. So collectively there are a lot more insights in open source than closed. I can't compete with open source that has a brilliant Benevolent Dictator for Life. But if you put me up against most other programmers individually, there is no contest in a super majority of the challenges (certainly there are programmers with superior logic skills than me, but you don't appear to be one of them). And put me up against the rigor mortis of Bitcoin, also no contest.

Every person has their strengths and weaknesses. My strength is not LOC production any more, you can probably easily defeat me on that metric.

I'm starting to surmise that you don't have a clue how to design such a protocol, and that all your bluster is just a smokescreen meant to hide your limitations from yourself.

Yeah I am just messing with your minds and have no actual technical ability. But maybe someone does who is reading my points and maybe they will do something. I am hoping. You see I don't really care how we get the solution, as long as we get one. I am not the young productive programmer that I once was with two good eyes (not very productive since losing one eye and acquiring an apparently progressive, incurable peripheral neuropathy auto-immune condition caused by an incurable STD which is also morphing into neuropathy every where not just peripheral and causes me chronic fatigue syndrome which causes frequent deliriousness+pain which makes it easier for me to write in a forum than to do the more intellectually sharp+focused work of actual programming... I only get opportunities to program depending on my body maybe every few days I get a good day).

Neuropathy is unpredictable. One minute I am doing fine, the next my face aches, tinnitus (motor in my ear), then suddenly my abdomen, then feet, then can't swallow and have a "fear of imminent suffocation" anxiety attack, feeling that my stomach wants to exit my body, etc..

[1714138127]

1714138127

[Nagle]

What nuttiness.

The Securities and Exchange Commission is not a "fiat institution". They have nothing to do with issuing currency, or the banking system. They regulate investments sold to US persons. It doesn't matter how those investments are denominated. The investment can be be denominated in oranges, as in the Howey case. Or Bitcoins, as Trendon Shavers found out.

[MPOE-PR]

What nuttiness.

The Securities and Exchange Commission is not a "fiat institution". They have nothing to do with issuing currency, or the banking system. They regulate investments sold to US persons. It doesn't matter how those investments are denominated. The investment can be be denominated in oranges, as in the Howey case. Or Bitcoins, as Trendon Shavers found out.

There's a substantial difference between oranges and Bitcoin. I wouldn't put too much stock in the tribulations of an anonymous Texas scammer before an equally anonymous Texas magistrate.

[jimmothy]

What nuttiness.

The Securities and Exchange Commission is not a "fiat institution". They have nothing to do with issuing currency, or the banking system. They regulate investments sold to US persons. It doesn't matter how those investments are denominated. The investment can be be denominated in oranges, as in the Howey case. Or Bitcoins, as Trendon Shavers found out.

There's a substantial difference between oranges and Bitcoin. I wouldn't put too much stock in the tribulations of an anonymous Texas scammer before an equally anonymous Texas magistrate.

Your detachment from reality is why you will end up rotting in a jail cell when the SEC/feds are done with you.

It's about time we stop pretending that using funny money makes us immune to all existing laws as the people making those laws seem to think they still apply.

The sooner this community gets rid of these stains/schemes currently tainting the innovative and revolutionary world of bitcoin which they are piggybacking, the sooner we will make progress.

[MPOE-PR]

Your detachment from reality is why you will end up rotting in a jail cell when the SEC/feds are done with you.

It's about time we stop pretending that using funny money makes us immune to all existing laws as the people making those laws seem to think they still apply.

The sooner this community gets rid of these stains/schemes currently tainting the innovative and revolutionary world of bitcoin which they are piggybacking, the sooner we will make progress.

So far, Bitcoin progress in its entirety consists of MP's stuff, MPEx among it. Learn to live with the idea, as it's not going anywhere.

[Ruthful]

There's a very good reason why unregistered securities and scams tend to avoid taking US customers(or refuse to acknowledge that they do).

I'm assuming you mean scams OTHER than the federal reserve and the US banking industry, here?

The operative word here is unregistered  securities .There is a a whole different gamut  between what's ethical and what's legal,  lest we really want to derail this thread **cough*MLM*cough**

One thing I learn observing scam and frauds(on both scam promoting and scam busting forums) is how surprisingly lack amount of resource and priority(even more so after 9/11) given to blue collar and financial crime  busting agencies(including SEC) by the US government .It takes them years of investigation to shut down frauds that are based on their own back yard(Zeek,Ad Surf Daily etc) and the same can be said when dealing frauds abroad(Profitable Sunrise),not to mention most smaller/medium sized scams flew below their radar.That is why many frauds(mostly ponzis and pyramids) that crash/ran away with funds in less than 2 years escaped the SEC, and most of the fraudsters knew this .I say we should wait around a year or so (at least) for the MPEX/SEC thing to pan out.


As other posters have pointed out, SEC  jurisdiction is dependent upon whether or not  your "business" targets US customers, not the denomination used by the exchange(gold ,Bitcoin Euro).You can use entire barter-based  payment option with rice and goats  and the SEC will still target you in they believed you're defrauding/soliciting investment from US citizens, regardless which country you operate from.

[mysidia]

The operative word here is unregistered  securities .There is a a whole different gamut  between what's ethical and what's legal,  lest we really want to

Okay, but for something to be an unregistered security, it FIRST has to be a security.

A security is a financial instrument; which implies a contract or a financial guarantee, in which you have a counterparty who could default on that instrument.

But the coins aren't like that.....   US dollars are guaranteed by a counterparty that printed them  (the US government),  but

For example: There is no guarantee that an entry 'spent' to your address listed in the Bitcoin blockchain ever becomes worth anything tangible in the first place.


If you have a purely software system....  such as a "distributed exchange",  then the trade of bit-things is guaranteed by the protocol and the mathematics, not a contractual guarantee, so there is no 'financial' instrument;   purely a mechanical operation that enters BTC ledger entry spends from one address to another.


So there are a number of potential ways in the Bitcoin ecosystem to achieve "Investments", without exchange of financial or legal instruments (or 'securities') between parties.

[jimmothy]

The operative word here is unregistered  securities .There is a a whole different gamut  between what's ethical and what's legal,  lest we really want to

Okay, but for something to be an unregistered security, it FIRST has to be a security.

A security is a financial instrument; which implies a contract or a financial guarantee, in which you have a counterparty who could default on that instrument.

But the coins aren't like that.....   US dollars are guaranteed by a counterparty that printed them  (the US government),  but

For example: There is no guarantee that an entry 'spent' to your address listed in the Bitcoin blockchain ever becomes worth anything tangible in the first place.


If you have a purely software system....  such as a "distributed exchange",  then the trade of bit-things is guaranteed by the protocol and the mathematics, not a contractual guarantee, so there is no 'financial' instrument;   purely a mechanical operation that enters BTC ledger entry spends from one address to another.


So there are a number of potential ways in the Bitcoin ecosystem to achieve "Investments", without exchange of financial or legal instruments (or 'securities') between parties.

Again pretending that using bitcoin makes you immune to all existing laws.

Do you honestly think that would hold up in court?

The SEC/feds are not as stupid as you think.

[Ruthful]

Okay, but for something to be an unregistered security, it FIRST has to be a security.

A simple way to find out if something is a security or not is by applying the Howey Test(which is what security commission in most country apply).If that "something " fails that, it can be pegged as a security.

[Bit_Happy]

So far, Bitcoin progress in its entirety consists of MP's stuff, MPEx among it. Learn to live with the idea, as it's not going anywhere.

So far, Bitcoin progress in its entirety consists of MP's stuff...
You give Satoshi no credit at all for "Bitcoin progress?"
You give no one on this forum any credit for "Bitcoin progress?"

Are you serious?

[MPOE-PR]

Okay, but for something to be an unregistered security, it FIRST has to be a security.

A simple way to find out if something is a security or not is by applying the Howey Test(which is what security commission in most country apply).If that "something " fails that, it can be pegged as a security.

So at which point did "something to which no one holds any title, to which possession is at best tenuous and existence entirely virtual" manage to pass the Howey test?

Subquestion: if you own a Monopoly board, and some collegiate hookers move into a house down the street and start sucking cock for Monopoly dollars as part of their "orally experiencing the world" agenda, are you now to register with the SEC next time you invite some friends over for a game of Monopoly lest you end up selling unregistered mortgages in virtual Boardwalk and other properties?

Get your shit together, if you're not a lawyer you have absolutely no business pretending like you know better than the people who are actually involved in this game. You want to matter, and opine, go to school.

You give Satoshi no credit at all for "Bitcoin progress?"

Guy invented it. What progress? If a woman spends fifteen years raising a kid by herself, cause daddy split three years after the deed, do you want to credit the kid's progress to him?

I don't particularly care either way, but you say something like that to an irl crowd you'll get mugged.

You give no one on this forum any credit for "Bitcoin progress?"

Are you serious?

Definitely no one on this forum gets any credit whatsoever. You're all idiots.

And that part, now that part I mean.

[Mr. Gabu]

Great, so SatoshiDICE, its shareholders, MPEx and Erik Voorhees are all under investigation by the SEC.

Hope they all go to jail. Voorhees is also member of organized crime network "Bitcoin Foundation". Hope he get 10 years at least.

[MPOE-PR]

Great, so SatoshiDICE, its shareholders, MPEx and Erik Voorhees are all under investigation by the SEC.

Hope they all go to jail. Voorhees is also member of organized crime network "Bitcoin Foundation". Hope he get 10 years at least.

[Ruthful]

The Howey test in a nutshell:
1. an investment of  "X"due to
2. an expectation of profits arising from
3. a common enterprise
4. which depends solely on the efforts of a promoter or third party

"X" must be some that hold monetary value or be money itself

so

So at which point did "something to which no one holds any title, to which possession is at best tenuous and existence entirely virtual" manage to pass the Howey test?

Bitcoin does fit what I described as "X" perfectly .

Are you trying to argue that Bitcoin is just monopoly money(I'm sure everyone here will takes issues with that )and any contract denominated in Bitcoin  is worthless?

Subquestion: if you own a Monopoly board, and some collegiate hookers move into a house down the street and start sucking cock for Monopoly dollars as part of their "orally experiencing the world" agenda, are you now to register with the SEC next time you invite some friends over for a game of Monopoly lest you end up selling unregistered mortgages in virtual Boardwalk and other properties?

Perchance you could introduce those collegiate hooker to the rest of us?I'm sure we would love to "meet" them.Some probably could have some "fun " with someone retarded "special" enough to sell themselves for toy money,although I'm not  a fan of taking advantage of the mentally disabled myself.

Do you know that certain MMORPGs  have very dynamic financial ecosystem that mirrors real life quite eerily?Take EVE Online for example:players have set up functional banks, multitudes of financial investment firms and even non functional frauds(ponzis, pyramids and whatnots) dealing with the in-game currency.Yet the SEC and other security commissions don't even bother with them despite the value(the in game currency can be "bought" with real cash  , they however can't be cashed out) in the ten of millions of USD.Why? because like your monopoly money/properties example, those in-game  currencies and investment have no monetary value in real life.

Get your shit together, if you're not a lawyer you have absolutely no business pretending like you know better than the people who are actually involved in this game. You want to matter, and opine, go to school.

Interesting conjecture there.Which part of what I've stated is untrue?Or maybe you are just as unclear on the concept of an internet forum as well.



A tango with the SEC always follows the same predictable trajectory.
When ever they open a case the outcome is either:

1.The company be cleared and continue to operate.
2.The Fraudulent enterprise folds(either crashing or simply run away) before SEC concluded their investigation, pretty much escaping with the investor's money.
3.The SEC and the relevant authorities closed them  and seized their assets.Civil/criminal charges will follow and there will attempts for the victims to be made whole.This usually/could take years , sometime even decades.


My point is the inquiry (from what is gathered is about one of MPEX's "customers", not MPEX itself) is just a preliminary action.The real shebang could happen years from now(going at the historical pace of past investigations).Don't delude your self into believing you have accomplished an outstanding act of defiance , that didn't work as well for Andy Bowdoin  either.

[jimmothy]

I can imagine the look on the judges face when mr popescu looks him dead in the eye and says

"Your honor, I had no idea when creating "the bitcoin stock exchange" that it would be considered a stock exchange."

Or

"Your honor, we don't consider bitcoins to be real money so the law doesn't apply to us."

[MPOE-PR]

Ignoring all the unwarranted reddit stuff,

My point is the inquiry (from what is gathered is about one of MPEX's "customers", not MPEX itself) is just a preliminary action.The real shebang could happen years from now(going at the historical pace of past investigations).

That's true, specifically, we will get to determine whether the SEC will continue to maintain relevance in the future, or disappear into the unheard-of heap, alongside the Mиниcтepcтвo финaнcoв PCФCP, the Austro-Hungarian Schatzkammer, King George's Board of Trade, and other extremely important in their day, meanwhile disused institutions. At any time the SEC feels ready for the test.

Don't delude your self into believing you have accomplished an outstanding act of defiance , that didn't work as well for Andy Bowdoin either.

Unrelated shit is unrelated; don't delude yourself into thinking your retardation is novel or important - there's a lengthy list of equally confused idiots buried in my metaphorical forum back yard. Course there is such a thing as invincible ignorance, but that works for groups not for the individuals.

An outstanding act has already been committed. This is, again, not for worthless you to establish; it has been called such by people who make the topic their business, so that's what it is.

Defiance was never the point, I'm sure. Whatever unresolved problems with authority you may be nursing and are presently allowing to bubble up in relation to MP and so forth aside, you can inform yourself on the topic by re-reading the ample commentary supplied by actually qualified participants, including my posts in this here shithole.

[jimmothy]

you can inform yourself on the topic by re-reading the ample commentary supplied by actually qualified participants, including my posts in this here shithole.

You may inform yourself on the topic by stepping out of fantasy land and joining the rest of us here in reality.

[Ruthful]

Ignoring all the unwarranted reddit stuff,

Ignoring all that points and facts you can't refute ,I see.We can definitely see how well you will do in courtroom cross examination

That's true, specifically, we will get to determine whether the SEC will continue to maintain relevance in the future, or disappear into the unheard-of heap, alongside the Mиниcтepcтвo финaнcoв PCФCP, the Austro-Hungarian Schatzkammer, King George's Board of Trade, and other extremely important in their day, meanwhile disused institutions. At any time the SEC feels ready for the test.

Should/if the USA fallen like all the regimes those organisation were attached to your notion might be worth musing .Until then keep your fan fictions in more pertinent forums .I think I say for everyone here that  your speculative fantasy isn't something most of us are interested in.

At any time the SEC feels ready for the test.

Famous last word indeed.

it has been called such by people who make the topic their business, so that's what it is.

Sorry ,but what part of her twitter that mentioned your meaningless act of defiance as "outstanding"?

Unrelated shit is unrelated; don't delude yourself into thinking your retardation is novel or important - there's a lengthy list of equally confused idiots buried in my metaphorical forum back yard.

Ahh, ad hominems whiles still refuse to engage any of the issues I raised.Clearly you have won this debate.

Defiance was never the point, I'm sure. Whatever unresolved problems with authority you may be nursing and are presently allowing to bubble up in relation to MP and so forth aside, you can inform yourself on the topic by re-reading the ample commentary supplied by actually qualified participants, including my posts in this here shithole.

Which qualified participants that supported your points,again?I fail to see a single one.Besides , Andy Bowdoin's  attempt at  fighting against the SEC and "evil US government" was far more epic(divine comedy level ,even) than  your simple refusal to co operate with the SEC, albeit just as impotent.

Perhaps you you would  like to explain your position in scam and law related forums (like quatloos, or realscam e.g), many there actually have background and experience in both scambusting and legal matters. I'm sure they'll just as impressed as I am with your performance.The education you'll received there will be priceless.

[MarketNeutral]

The operative word here is unregistered  securities .There is a a whole different gamut  between what's ethical and what's legal,  lest we really want to

Okay, but for something to be an unregistered security, it FIRST has to be a security.

A security is a financial instrument; which implies a contract or a financial guarantee, in which you have a counterparty who could default on that instrument.

But the coins aren't like that.....   US dollars are guaranteed by a counterparty that printed them  (the US government),  but

For example: There is no guarantee that an entry 'spent' to your address listed in the Bitcoin blockchain ever becomes worth anything tangible in the first place.


If you have a purely software system....  such as a "distributed exchange",  then the trade of bit-things is guaranteed by the protocol and the mathematics, not a contractual guarantee, so there is no 'financial' instrument;   purely a mechanical operation that enters BTC ledger entry spends from one address to another.


So there are a number of potential ways in the Bitcoin ecosystem to achieve "Investments", without exchange of financial or legal instruments (or 'securities') between parties.

Again pretending that using bitcoin makes you immune to all existing laws.

Do you honestly think that would hold up in court?

The SEC/feds are not as stupid as you think.

So which head of the hydra are you pushing papers for? The SEC, or another paragon of government virtue? Should we examine the SEC's spotless track record over the years?

[freedomno1]

Still out of SEC focus in my opinion one Eric Shut Down US based gambling on Satoshidice before closing the stock.
I can see their rationale though of looking at every shareholder then tracking the ones with Bitcoin addresses from the USA
Still feels a bit strong for a privacy invasion but then again that's what their known for (Assange + Snowden)