Interacting with fiat institutions [such as the SEC], a guide

[Beliathon]

It's funny that every member of Bitinstant ended up being a criminal.

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
-Eugene V. Debs

Debs was sentenced on November 18, 1918, to ten years in prison. He was also disenfranchised for life. Debs presented what has been called his best-remembered statement at his sentencing hearing.

What do the selfish capitalist cowards of the world have to say in response to that, I wonder?

[jbreher]

Good luck with that Eric. I don't think any reputable Bitcoin business would touch you with a 10 foot pole. I know any business that employs you is one I will never use.

Well, he violated some regulations, but did he do anything immoral? Sure, there's the dust issue, but that seems to me to be merely using bitcoin as designed.

[alani123]

Unauthorized Securities Sale? Seriously? He wasn't the only one handing out securities, what made his case more special than all the other share being sold for bitcoins?

“Potential investors can be easily enticed with the promise of high returns in a new investment space and also may be less skeptical when assessing something novel, new and cutting-edge.”

I wonder if this will have any impact at all to existing bitcoin securities. I can't think of any way the feds and the SEC could fight this. Unlike his case, most people using bitcoin and handing securities keep themselves anonymous.

[drrussellshane]

It's funny that every member of Bitinstant ended up being a criminal.

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
-Eugene V. Debs

Debs was sentenced on November 18, 1918, to ten years in prison. He was also disenfranchised for life. Debs presented what has been called his best-remembered statement at his sentencing hearing.

What do the selfish capitalist cowards of the world have to say in response to that, I wonder?

I can't say that I know a whole lot about Debs, but he probably wouldn't have referred to people with whom he disagreed in the manner that you just did.

I thought that leftists were all about tolerance.

[QuestionAuthority]

Good luck with that Eric. I don't think any reputable Bitcoin business would touch you with a 10 foot pole. I know any business that employs you is one I will never use.

Well, he violated some regulations, but did he do anything immoral? Sure, there's the dust issue, but that seems to me to be merely using bitcoin as designed.

Morality is subjective. I'm not entirely sure murder is immoral depending on why you murdered. There is a lot more than the dust issue. Search the forum to find that he is willing to do anything to anyone for a profit. He simply sees Bitcoin as a means to that end.

I like to trust people that I deal with financially and I don't trust him. I also like to see vendors that I use make good and sound business decisions and he has proven multiple times that he is incapable of doing that. From scurrying to sell SatoshiDice because he found out it was illegal to service US customers, whatever involvement he had in Bitinstant, failing to follow through on feedzbirds, legal problems over the security he listed to reap profit from dumping SatoshiDice, running to Panama when the heat was on, he has proven to be business poison. Get into bed with him on a business deal and you may find out that tomorrow you're broke and he now lives in Argentina.

[Ron~Popeil]

Good luck with that Eric. I don't think any reputable Bitcoin business would touch you with a 10 foot pole. I know any business that employs you is one I will never use.

Well, he violated some regulations, but did he do anything immoral? Sure, there's the dust issue, but that seems to me to be merely using bitcoin as designed.

Morality is subjective. I'm not entirely sure murder is immoral depending on why you murdered. There is a lot more than the dust issue. Search the forum to find that he is willing to do anything to anyone for a profit. He simply sees Bitcoin as a means to that end.

I like to trust people that I deal with financially and I don't trust him. I also like to see vendors that I use make good and sound business decisions and he has proven multiple times that he is incapable of doing that. From scurrying to sell SatoshiDice because he found out it was illegal to service US customers, whatever involvement he had in Bitinstant, failing to follow through on feedzbirds, legal problems over the security he listed to reap profit from dumping SatoshiDice, running to Panama when the heat was on, he has proven to be business poison. Get into bed with him on a business deal and you may find out that tomorrow you're broke and he now lives in Argentina.

That is one of the things I find fascinating about this community. Your reputation really does mean something here. If you have a bad reputation for dishonesty or unethical behavior you will have a harder time doing business. That and Phinneas Gage (SIC) will splash your personal details all over the internet. 

[Beliathon]

It's funny that every member of Bitinstant ended up being a criminal.

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
-Eugene V. Debs

Debs was sentenced on November 18, 1918, to ten years in prison. He was also disenfranchised for life. Debs presented what has been called his best-remembered statement at his sentencing hearing.

What do the selfish capitalist cowards of the world have to say in response to that, I wonder?

I can't say that I know a whole lot about Debs, but he probably wouldn't have referred to people with whom he disagreed in the manner that you just did.

I thought that leftists were all about tolerance.

Ignorance is both evil and rampant in our society, and I am therefore one pissed off, intolerant son of a bitch. Sorry about that.

As ignorance is bliss, so knowledge is suffering.

[Ron~Popeil]

It's funny that every member of Bitinstant ended up being a criminal.

"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
-Eugene V. Debs

Debs was sentenced on November 18, 1918, to ten years in prison. He was also disenfranchised for life. Debs presented what has been called his best-remembered statement at his sentencing hearing.

What do the selfish capitalist cowards of the world have to say in response to that, I wonder?

I can't say that I know a whole lot about Debs, but he probably wouldn't have referred to people with whom he disagreed in the manner that you just did.

I thought that leftists were all about tolerance.

Ignorance is both evil and rampant in our society, and I am therefore one pissed off, intolerant son of a bitch. Sorry about that.

As ignorance is bliss, so knowledge is suffering.

Have you ever seen something that straddles the interests of so many divergent political opinions? I am a fairly committed "capitalist coward" yet I find my self agreeing with a "crazy commie" quite often. We may believe in this experiment for different reasons but the outcome is great for everyone.

[QuestionAuthority]

Good luck with that Eric. I don't think any reputable Bitcoin business would touch you with a 10 foot pole. I know any business that employs you is one I will never use.

Well, he violated some regulations, but did he do anything immoral? Sure, there's the dust issue, but that seems to me to be merely using bitcoin as designed.

Morality is subjective. I'm not entirely sure murder is immoral depending on why you murdered. There is a lot more than the dust issue. Search the forum to find that he is willing to do anything to anyone for a profit. He simply sees Bitcoin as a means to that end.

I like to trust people that I deal with financially and I don't trust him. I also like to see vendors that I use make good and sound business decisions and he has proven multiple times that he is incapable of doing that. From scurrying to sell SatoshiDice because he found out it was illegal to service US customers, whatever involvement he had in Bitinstant, failing to follow through on feedzbirds, legal problems over the security he listed to reap profit from dumping SatoshiDice, running to Panama when the heat was on, he has proven to be business poison. Get into bed with him on a business deal and you may find out that tomorrow you're broke and he now lives in Argentina.

That is one of the things I find fascinating about this community. Your reputation really does mean something here. If you have a bad reputation for dishonesty or unethical behavior you will have a harder time doing business. That and Phinneas Gage (SIC) will splash your personal details all over the internet. 

That's right. Reputation is everything in Bitcoin because most of the time it's all the protection you have. In Voorhees case I don't really know if he's dishonest, unlucky or stupid but it doesn't really matter because any of the three are killers in business.

Pirate@40 had a great reputation here. Everyone thought he was a standup guy that wanted to name his firstborn Bitcoin. He was loved and supported by a massive following of loyalists. He was just a crook but his reputation carried him. Yankee (Charlie Shrem) was also loved by all. Hell, there are still Yankee supporters that would let him fuck their wives if he asked. The problem is he makes stupid business decisions and has ruined his reputation. No more business for Charlie. Poor Jered Kenna must walk around all day breaking mirrors and walking in front of black cats. It seems like everything he touches turns to shit overnight. At least he's not a crook or stupid.

[jbreher]

Good luck with that Eric. I don't think any reputable Bitcoin business would touch you with a 10 foot pole. I know any business that employs you is one I will never use.

Well, he violated some regulations, but did he do anything immoral? Sure, there's the dust issue, but that seems to me to be merely using bitcoin as designed.

Morality is subjective. I'm not entirely sure murder is immoral depending on why you murdered. There is a lot more than the dust issue. Search the forum to find that he is willing to do anything to anyone for a profit. He simply sees Bitcoin as a means to that end.

I like to trust people that I deal with financially and I don't trust him. I also like to see vendors that I use make good and sound business decisions and he has proven multiple times that he is incapable of doing that. From scurrying to sell SatoshiDice because he found out it was illegal to service US customers, whatever involvement he had in Bitinstant, failing to follow through on feedzbirds, legal problems over the security he listed to reap profit from dumping SatoshiDice, running to Panama when the heat was on, he has proven to be business poison. Get into bed with him on a business deal and you may find out that tomorrow you're broke and he now lives in Argentina.

Well thanks. I never had cause to do business with him directly. I guess my general impression of him was formed by hearing him speak - soundcloud, youtube, and in person, and speaking with him at Bitcoin 2013 in San Jose. I find him one of the more articulate and compelling speakers that we had in the early days, and think that his talks had some thing to do with Bitcoin's early success.

Either way though, I hate anyone to be prosecuted (or persecuted) for bitcoin securities regulations. IMNSHO, The State has no business interceding between willing parties. That whole Article I Section 10 'impairing the obligations of contracts' thing.

[Ron~Popeil]

Good luck with that Eric. I don't think any reputable Bitcoin business would touch you with a 10 foot pole. I know any business that employs you is one I will never use.

Well, he violated some regulations, but did he do anything immoral? Sure, there's the dust issue, but that seems to me to be merely using bitcoin as designed.

Morality is subjective. I'm not entirely sure murder is immoral depending on why you murdered. There is a lot more than the dust issue. Search the forum to find that he is willing to do anything to anyone for a profit. He simply sees Bitcoin as a means to that end.

I like to trust people that I deal with financially and I don't trust him. I also like to see vendors that I use make good and sound business decisions and he has proven multiple times that he is incapable of doing that. From scurrying to sell SatoshiDice because he found out it was illegal to service US customers, whatever involvement he had in Bitinstant, failing to follow through on feedzbirds, legal problems over the security he listed to reap profit from dumping SatoshiDice, running to Panama when the heat was on, he has proven to be business poison. Get into bed with him on a business deal and you may find out that tomorrow you're broke and he now lives in Argentina.

Well thanks. I never had cause to do business with him directly. I guess my general impression of him was formed by hearing him speak - soundcloud, youtube, and in person, and speaking with him at Bitcoin 2013 in San Jose. I find him one of the more articulate and compelling speakers that we had in the early days, and think that his talks had some thing to do with Bitcoin's early success.

Either way though, I hate anyone to be prosecuted (or persecuted) for bitcoin securities regulations. IMNSHO, The State has no business interceding between willing parties. That whole Article I Section 10 'impairing the obligations of contracts' thing.

I agree. The state has no place there but that is a risk of doing business that you really have to account for.

[jbreher]

Pirate@40 had a great reputation here. Everyone thought he was a standup guy that wanted to name his firstborn Bitcoin. He was loved and supported by a massive following of loyalists. He was just a crook but his reputation carried him.

Yeah, that one stung.

Yankee (Charlie Shrem) was also loved by all. Hell, there are still Yankee supporters that would let him fuck their wives if he asked. The problem is he makes stupid business decisions and has ruined his reputation. No more business for Charlie.

Another guy I have no problem with. Again, The State has no business... Has his transgression resulted in problems for customers?

Poor Jered Kenna must walk around all day breaking mirrors and walking in front of black cats. It seems like everything he touches turns to shit overnight. At least he's not a crook or stupid.

I had holdings in TradeHill at both their implosions. Both times, I was made whole. Jered is certainly not crossed off my list of people I might do business with.

[QuestionAuthority]

Good luck with that Eric. I don't think any reputable Bitcoin business would touch you with a 10 foot pole. I know any business that employs you is one I will never use.

Well, he violated some regulations, but did he do anything immoral? Sure, there's the dust issue, but that seems to me to be merely using bitcoin as designed.

Morality is subjective. I'm not entirely sure murder is immoral depending on why you murdered. There is a lot more than the dust issue. Search the forum to find that he is willing to do anything to anyone for a profit. He simply sees Bitcoin as a means to that end.

I like to trust people that I deal with financially and I don't trust him. I also like to see vendors that I use make good and sound business decisions and he has proven multiple times that he is incapable of doing that. From scurrying to sell SatoshiDice because he found out it was illegal to service US customers, whatever involvement he had in Bitinstant, failing to follow through on feedzbirds, legal problems over the security he listed to reap profit from dumping SatoshiDice, running to Panama when the heat was on, he has proven to be business poison. Get into bed with him on a business deal and you may find out that tomorrow you're broke and he now lives in Argentina.

Well thanks. I never had cause to do business with him directly. I guess my general impression of him was formed by hearing him speak - soundcloud, youtube, and in person, and speaking with him at Bitcoin 2013 in San Jose. I find him one of the more articulate and compelling speakers that we had in the early days, and think that his talks had some thing to do with Bitcoin's early success.

Either way though, I hate anyone to be prosecuted (or persecuted) for bitcoin securities regulations. IMNSHO, The State has no business interceding between willing parties. That whole Article I Section 10 'impairing the obligations of contracts' thing.

Your absolutely right, all of them made Bitcoin successful. Even Trendon Shavers and Mark Karpeles led to the success of Bitcoin. Just because someone is a stupid crook doesn't mean they can't have a following that increases the visibility of Bitcoin. There are hundreds of Bitcoin users that disagree with you about SEC involvement in Bitcoin because they are the ones that turned in Trendon Shavers. If you cheat them your fellow Bitcoiners will drop a dime on you so fast it will make your head spin.

Be careful about believing in someone just because he is a poetic evangelist. Jim Jones killed dozens of people with his tongue. Adolph Hitler killed millions.

[jbreher]

There are hundreds of Bitcoin users that disagree with you about SEC involvement in Bitcoin because they are the ones that turned in Trendon Shavers.

I left dealing with Shavers to 'the authorities', because if we would have hunted him down, and applied increasing pain to him until he coughed up his private keys, The State would have thrown _us_ in prison. As it stands, he's still today a free man, and I and the rest of the aggrieved will be lucky if we collect a satoshi on the zib.

If you cheat them your fellow Bitcoiners will drop a dime on you so fast it will make your head spin.

I disagree. It may be due to the aforementioned problem of the state protecting the villains, but just look at how many chiselers get off scott-free.

[Ron~Popeil]

Good luck with that Eric. I don't think any reputable Bitcoin business would touch you with a 10 foot pole. I know any business that employs you is one I will never use.

Well, he violated some regulations, but did he do anything immoral? Sure, there's the dust issue, but that seems to me to be merely using bitcoin as designed.

Morality is subjective. I'm not entirely sure murder is immoral depending on why you murdered. There is a lot more than the dust issue. Search the forum to find that he is willing to do anything to anyone for a profit. He simply sees Bitcoin as a means to that end.

I like to trust people that I deal with financially and I don't trust him. I also like to see vendors that I use make good and sound business decisions and he has proven multiple times that he is incapable of doing that. From scurrying to sell SatoshiDice because he found out it was illegal to service US customers, whatever involvement he had in Bitinstant, failing to follow through on feedzbirds, legal problems over the security he listed to reap profit from dumping SatoshiDice, running to Panama when the heat was on, he has proven to be business poison. Get into bed with him on a business deal and you may find out that tomorrow you're broke and he now lives in Argentina.

Well thanks. I never had cause to do business with him directly. I guess my general impression of him was formed by hearing him speak - soundcloud, youtube, and in person, and speaking with him at Bitcoin 2013 in San Jose. I find him one of the more articulate and compelling speakers that we had in the early days, and think that his talks had some thing to do with Bitcoin's early success.

Either way though, I hate anyone to be prosecuted (or persecuted) for bitcoin securities regulations. IMNSHO, The State has no business interceding between willing parties. That whole Article I Section 10 'impairing the obligations of contracts' thing.

Your absolutely right, all of them made Bitcoin successful. Even Trendon Shavers and Mark Karpeles led to the success of Bitcoin. Just because someone is a stupid crook doesn't mean they can't have a following that increases the visibility of Bitcoin. There are hundreds of Bitcoin users that disagree with you about SEC involvement in Bitcoin because they are the ones that turned in Trendon Shavers. If you cheat them your fellow Bitcoiners will drop a dime on you so fast it will make your head spin.

Be careful about believing in someone just because he is a poetic evangelist. Jim Jones killed dozens of people with his tongue. Adolph Hitler killed millions.

The MT GOX story actually got me into bit coin. I had never looked at it closely until reading an article about the collapse. This in turn led me here and now I am a hard core bit coiner.

[QuestionAuthority]

There are hundreds of Bitcoin users that disagree with you about SEC involvement in Bitcoin because they are the ones that turned in Trendon Shavers.

I left dealing with Shavers to 'the authorities', because if we would have hunted him down, and applied increasing pain to him until he coughed up his private keys, The State would have thrown _us_ in prison. As it stands, he's still today a free man, and I and the rest of the aggrieved will be lucky if we collect a satoshi on the zib.

If you cheat them your fellow Bitcoiners will drop a dime on you so fast it will make your head spin.

I disagree. It may be due to the aforementioned problem of the state protecting the villains, but just look at how many chiselers get off scott-free.

I was one of the dime droppers that turned in Shavers. I personally spoke to Philip Moustakis of the SEC about the complaint and he took down my information but let me know that he really didn't need any more statements because he had HUNDREDS of them already. Way more than he needed to file.

Just because the system is broken doesn't mean your fellow Bitcoiners won't run to mommy government and tattle. They most certainly will do it and have done it en masse.

[Beliathon]

I am a fairly committed "capitalist coward"

yet I find my self agreeing with a "crazy commie" quite often. We may believe in this experiment for different reasons but the outcome is great for everyone.

[jbreher]

I was one of the dime droppers that turned in Shavers. I personally spoke to Philip Moustakis of the SEC about the complaint and he took down my information but let me know that he really didn't need any more statements because he had HUNDREDS of them already. Way more than he needed to file.

Thank you for that. Sincerely.

Just because the system is broken doesn't mean your fellow Bitcoiners won't run to mommy government and tattle. They most certainly will do it and have done it en masse.

I think it should be pointed out here that there is a vast difference between fraud on the one hand, and running afoul of the regulator's restrictions upon exercising the right to contract on the other. Stealing people's holdings through a ponzi scheme is a vastly different thing than crowdfunding a new business (Isn't the mere selling of shares in SatoshiDice the thrust of regulators against Voorhees?).

[QuestionAuthority]

I was one of the dime droppers that turned in Shavers. I personally spoke to Philip Moustakis of the SEC about the complaint and he took down my information but let me know that he really didn't need any more statements because he had HUNDREDS of them already. Way more than he needed to file.

Thank you for that. Sincerely.

Just because the system is broken doesn't mean your fellow Bitcoiners won't run to mommy government and tattle. They most certainly will do it and have done it en masse.

I think it should be pointed out here that there is a vast difference between fraud on the one hand, and running afoul of the regulator's restrictions upon exercising the right to contract on the other. Stealing people's holdings through a ponzi scheme is a vastly different thing than crowdfunding a new business (Isn't the mere selling of shares in SatoshiDice the thrust of regulators against Voorhees?).

I hear you, but you can't wake the beast and expect it to sleep until you're ready for it. Shavers ran an illegal security. Voorhees ran an illegal security. Just because Shavers wasn't crafty enough to return a bulk of the funds to investors right before he was caught doesn't make his crime different. It just means Voorhees was more crafty than Shavers and had a better legal team.

The difference between Shavers and Voorhees is a matter of semantics. They were both selling unregistered securities. Shavers became a Ponzi when he failed to return at least a bulk of the money. Voorhees was bright enough to get legal advise. I think they should have gone after him for FeedZeBirds too. He's obviously got a great legal team. Where's the 2,600 Bitcoins for FeedZeBirds Erik?

Though the SEC investigation alleges that Erik Voorhees profited over $15,000 from his sale of unregistered offerings, the total settlement cost total more than $50,000.  In the conclusion to this SEC investigation, Erik Voorhees has agreed to pay a full disgorgement of his profits of $15,843.98 plus a penalty of $35,000.  Additionally, Voorhees has committed to not participating “in any issuance of any security in an unregistered transaction in exchange for any virtual currency including Bitcoin for a period of five years.”  However, it is important to note that Voorhees has consented to the SEC ban and the SEC monetary penalty “without admitting or denying the SEC’s findings". FeedZeBirds is another Bitcoin security that Erik Voorhees offered on the Bitcoin Forum prior to his fundraising for Satoshi Dice.  Like his Satoshi Dice IPO, FeedZeBirds was advertised on the Bitcoin Forum and raised 2,600 bitcoins in May of 2012.

[Ron~Popeil]

I was one of the dime droppers that turned in Shavers. I personally spoke to Philip Moustakis of the SEC about the complaint and he took down my information but let me know that he really didn't need any more statements because he had HUNDREDS of them already. Way more than he needed to file.

Thank you for that. Sincerely.

Just because the system is broken doesn't mean your fellow Bitcoiners won't run to mommy government and tattle. They most certainly will do it and have done it en masse.

I think it should be pointed out here that there is a vast difference between fraud on the one hand, and running afoul of the regulator's restrictions upon exercising the right to contract on the other. Stealing people's holdings through a ponzi scheme is a vastly different thing than crowdfunding a new business (Isn't the mere selling of shares in SatoshiDice the thrust of regulators against Voorhees?).

I hear you, but you can't wake the beast and expect it to sleep until you're ready for it. Shavers ran an illegal security. Voorhees ran an illegal security. Just because Shavers wasn't crafty enough to return a bulk of the funds to investors right before he was caught doesn't make his crime different. It just means Voorhees was more crafty than Shavers and had a better legal team.

The difference between Shavers and Voorhees is a matter of semantics. They were both selling unregistered securities. Shavers became a Ponzi when he failed to return at least a bulk of the money. Voorhees was bright enough to get legal advise. I think they should have gone after him for FeedZeBirds too. He's obviously got a great legal team. Where's the 2,600 Bitcoins for FeedZeBirds Erik?

Though the SEC investigation alleges that Erik Voorhees profited over $15,000 from his sale of unregistered offerings, the total settlement cost total more than $50,000.  In the conclusion to this SEC investigation, Erik Voorhees has agreed to pay a full disgorgement of his profits of $15,843.98 plus a penalty of $35,000.  Additionally, Voorhees has committed to not participating “in any issuance of any security in an unregistered transaction in exchange for any virtual currency including Bitcoin for a period of five years.”  However, it is important to note that Voorhees has consented to the SEC ban and the SEC monetary penalty “without admitting or denying the SEC’s findings". FeedZeBirds is another Bitcoin security that Erik Voorhees offered on the Bitcoin Forum prior to his fundraising for Satoshi Dice.  Like his Satoshi Dice IPO, FeedZeBirds was advertised on the Bitcoin Forum and raised 2,600 bitcoins in May of 2012.

Yeah that is a bit like poking a bear. A little foresight could have prevented a lot of problems.