Ponzi.wtf, a self admitted ponzi scheme.

[The Cryptovator]

Website: https://www.ponzi.wtf
Archived: http://archive.is/j3hou
Thread link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5209903.0
Archived: http://archive.is/O4vFT
What happened: Self admitted ponzi scammer.

Nothing special to say about that website since website itself describe as a ponzi scheme. Just saty away....

 

User who promoting this scam, he is likely scammer. See his post history and below quote,

I  have 52 BTC and 103K USDT

my telegram : @yellBTCnow

Here is red flag: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=1070

[1715140092]

1715140092

[1715140092]

1715140092

[tvplus006]

Obviously, we see the relative honesty of scammers when they themselves say they are promoting a Ponzi scheme. But that doesn't change anything. Investment is still dangerous.
Flag is supported.

[eddie13]

How exactly is a ponzi a scam if they state right upfront that they are a ponzi?
I understand and agree that they are scams when they try to disguise their ponzi as some sort of investment or doubler, but if they basically say "this is a ponzi, gamble if you wish", how is that a scam?

"Warning. This is a game and not an investment. If you play you might lose money. Or you might win..."
"If nobody else buys in then you are out of luck and you will have to cash out for a loss."
"The smart contract is fixed and immutable on the Ethereum blockchain. Anybody can audit the code and confirm the behavior. See the links in the helpful links section for source code and contract details"

Seems pretty honest to me actually..
Just about as much of a scam as any casino, maybe even less than many..

What is your reasoning that an honest ponzi, on a blockchain, and you can even review the source code?
"This contract will live as long as the Ethereum blockchain is running"

Wouldn't that even be equivalent to a "provably fair" casino?

Do you figure any of these statements by them are lies?  

relative honesty ....  But that doesn't change anything.

Why doesn't it change anything?

Investment is still dangerous.

So?
It may even be less dangerous than investing in most of the ICOs..

[dkbit98]

WTF?!

How exactly is a ponzi a scam if they state right upfront that they are a ponzi?

Ponzi scheme is by definition ''a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors''
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Fraud vs Scam
https://wikidiff.com/scam/fraud
https://fraudsdetection.com/scams-vs-frauds

Looks like Frauds are worse than Scams and in real world people are going to jail if they run Ponzi schemes.  


updated

[AmoreJaz]

WTF?!

How exactly is a ponzi a scam if they state right upfront that they are a ponzi?

Ponzi scheme is by definition a ''is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors''
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

And looks like that in real world people are going to jail if they run Ponzi scheme.  

scammers are now getting bold! shoving their scheme right in front of your face. at least you know what youre getting into if in case you still think of joining the pack!
if a user still thinks of joining him, then obviously it is driven by greed, thinking that he will get rich on the other end. but guess what? he will be crying and cursing afterwards.

[eddie13]

Ponzi scheme is by definition ''a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors''
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Further quote from same link..
"The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from product sales or other means (it does not), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. (not in this case)"
Which does not apply here..

So what is a non-fraudulent ponzi?
Can it technically still even be a "ponzi" if it isn't fraudulent?
Do you see any fraud here?

[Joel_Jantsen]

This is actually good that they're being honest about the operations unlike tokens claiming to be all legit by showing shitty whitepapers and are covered with underlying ponzis.

scammers are now getting bold! shoving their scheme right in front of your face. at least you know what youre getting into if in case you still think of joining the pack!

Imagine how stupid one has to be to still fall for it? Scams are by no means one-way traffic. There has to be an uninformed victim associated with it.

[TryNinja]

Without considering anything else other than his website, when he advertised it and makes it clear that it is a ponzi (deposit and get paid from other deposits) it is really a scam? Depending on how you see it, this could be basically a “gambling website”. You are gambling your money by expecting other people to do the same. Someone will lose (the last users), but so do people on most casinos.

A website claiming to do some generic stuff (mining, investing, etc) and using that to deceive their users to invest, only to get paid by future deposits - that I would call a scam. But a “ponzi based” gambling website? I’m not sure. It’s a gray area IMO.

[dkbit98]

Further quote from same link..
"The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from product sales or other means (it does not), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. (not in this case)"
Which does not apply here..

So what is a non-fraudulent ponzi?
Can it technically still even be a "ponzi" if it isn't fraudulent?
Do you see any fraud here?

This is not a product sale, so you can not apply that logic here.

Ponzi Scheme is a Ponzi Scheme and a FRAUD even if you tell the truth about it.

Yes, I still see a Fraud here, and everyone else who looks at their ANN topic (except you)

"The basic premise of a Ponzi scheme is "to rob Peter to pay Paul".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

[eddie13]

This is not a product sale, so you can not apply that logic here.

Exactly, so your wiki article does not apply..
Can you apply any logic here other than just asserting your statements are true?

Ponzi Scheme is a Ponzi Scheme and a FRAUD even if you tell the truth about it.

A fraud even if the truth is honestly told eh? Including reviewable code run on a decently trusted blockchain?

"The basic premise of a Ponzi scheme is "to rob Peter to pay Paul".

But their is no peter to be robbed, only voluntary players..

I'm looking for a good logical reason that this is a scam or fraud..
Logic is the fun of it..

[Vod]

How exactly is a ponzi a scam if they state right upfront that they are a ponzi?

Because a ponzi is a MLM scheme, and even if level 0 (the ponzi owners) claim it is a ponzi, you cannot guarantee or expect all downlevels to pass on that information.

All you need to find is one referral link that does not state it is a ponzi, and your argument is void.  :/

[eddie13]

a ponzi is a MLM schem

False..

"Ponzi schemes are based on fraudulent investment management services—basically, investors contribute money to the "portfolio manager" who promises them a high return, and then when those investors want their money back, they are paid out with the incoming funds contributed by later investors. The person organizing this type of fraud is in charge of controlling the entire operation"

"A pyramid scheme, on the other hand, is structured so that the initial schemer must recruit other investors who will continue to recruit other investors"

"a pyramid scheme differs from a multi-level marketing campaign, which offers legitimate products."
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/ponzi-vs-pyramid.asp

No products here so not MLM, no pyramid of recruiters so no pyramid scheme, no deception or fraud so not really even a "ponzi"..

I'm not sure if this can even be called a "ponzi" in the absence of any fraud..
Ponzi-like game?

All you need to find is one referral link that does not state it is a ponzi, and your argument is void.  :/

What is he going to do? Create a ref link to a fake website that doesn't say it's a ponzi?
Then the deceiver is the scammer..

[dkbit98]

This is not a product sale, so you can not apply that logic here.

Definition Sentence I quoted does apply, but then you added some other random sentence you like and prefer more.
If you want to promote or justify that Ponzi you can do it in their ANN topic, I don't mind at all.

A fraud even if the truth is honestly told eh? Including reviewable code run on a decently trusted blockchain

So you reviewed and audited their shady smart contract and found no bugs and issues, and you guarantee for them??  

But their is no peter to be robbed, only voluntary players..

All voluntary 'players' are Peter.

No products here so not MLM, no pyramid of recruiters so no pyramid scheme, no deception or fraud so not really even a "ponzi"..

If there is no Ponzi here (like you say) than they are a FRAUD because they lie that they are a Ponzi.... and you say they are not.
So they are a FRAUD (with your logic).

[Vod]

a ponzi is a MLM schem

False..

It says on the front page Convince others to buy in so you can profit

All ponzis are MLM, unless they don't have a referral system.

[dkbit98]

''Multi-level Marketing (MLM) is a marketing strategy designed to promote their product by through distributors, offering multiple levels of compensation.''

''Pyramid schemes are, however, fraudulent schemes, disguising as an MLM strategy. The difference between a pyramid scheme and a lawful MLM program is that there is no real product that is sold in a pyramid scheme, and commissions are based only on the number of new individuals one introduces into the scheme.''

''With Ponzi schemes, investors give money to a portfolio manager. Then, when they want their money back, they are paid out with the incoming funds contributed by later investors.''

''With a pyramid scheme, the initial schemer recruits other investors who in turn recruit other investors and so on. Late-joining investors pay the person who recruited them for the right to participate or perhaps sell a certain product.''

sources:
https://www.diffen.com/difference/MLM_vs_Pyramid_Scheme
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/ponzi-vs-pyramid.asp

[examplens]

''Multi-level Marketing (MLM) is a marketing strategy designed to promote their product by through distributors, offering multiple levels of compensation.''

''Pyramid schemes are, however, fraudulent schemes, disguising as an MLM strategy. The difference between a pyramid scheme and a lawful MLM program is that there is no real product that is sold in a pyramid scheme, and commissions are based only on the number of new individuals one introduces into the scheme.''

''With Ponzi schemes, investors give money to a portfolio manager. Then, when they want their money back, they are paid out with the incoming funds contributed by later investors.''

''With a pyramid scheme, the initial schemer recruits other investors who in turn recruit other investors and so on. Late-joining investors pay the person who recruited them for the right to participate or perhaps sell a certain product.''

sources:
https://www.diffen.com/difference/MLM_vs_Pyramid_Scheme
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/ponzi-vs-pyramid.asp

Same things for all these schemes are, they asking from user to invest money with promising of a big return. it is possible that in the beginning and some people get profit from there, but most people remain without money. it is always a promised longer waiting for a period means a higher percentage of profit.
everything else is just performance, referral program, real or no real product... in the end, it boils down to the same. Scam.

[Harlot]

The sad thing about this is even if the scam is self-admitted they still manage to have almost a thousand members in their Telegram channel which only means that they are also openly aware on participating on the fraud and is also trying to scam one another. That's the sad thing about ponzi schemes and HYIP sites some members who are in there are also trying to scam other people and they are trying to recruit more just for the commission they will have from them and of course for the longevity of the scam. This is just a pure evidence that some people even if they aren't part of developing the scam are also scamming other people just for the money they will earn from them.

[The Cryptovator]

I am quite confused exactly what @eddie13 want to mean. Everyone know what is ponzi scheme, I will present full quote,

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/, Italian: [ˈpontsi]; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.[2] The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from product sales or other means, and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.  

From first part they are ponzi scheme as they already mentioned on their website. They will diverts fund from late buyers to earlier buyers, so no doubts about that they are ponzi scheme.

If you wondering about second part that they didn't lead investors that profits will come from some other source. But does it change the fact? Fact is pretty clear, still they are ponzi scheme and self admitted. So why you think that is not ponzi scheme even they mentioned it? It will run until new investors come, we have seen that all ponzi scheme eventually turn into scam. So I don't think it will different from it.

Anyway since I believe there is risk for investors and that's why I have tagged them and create red flag. If anyone disagree with me then feel free to oppose flag and counter red tag. I don't think we should make arguments between us.

[tmfp]

I don't think we should make arguments between us.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy discussion.

My personal approach is that "fraud" or "material misrepresentation" is an essential part of any "scam".
Using the word "ponzi" to attract players/investors, call them what you will, into an unsustainable scheme that pays out early members at the expense of later ones, is not a "scam" in itself. IMO.
Regarding the similarities with MLM and pyramid schemes, there's a lifetime's work in exposing much clearer and more dangerous frauds in those areas, if one has a mind to do so.
 

[eddie13]

I am quite confused exactly what @eddie13 want to mean. Everyone know what is ponzi scheme, I will present full quote,

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/, Italian: [ˈpontsi]; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.[2] The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from product sales or other means, and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.  

From first part they are ponzi scheme as they already mentioned on their website. They will diverts fund from late buyers to earlier buyers, so no doubts about that they are ponzi scheme.

If you wondering about second part that they didn't lead investors that profits will come from some other source. But does it change the fact? Fact is pretty clear, still they are ponzi scheme and self admitted. So why you think that is not ponzi scheme even they mentioned it? It will run until new investors come, we have seen that all ponzi scheme eventually turn into scam. So I don't think it will different from it.

Anyway since I believe there is risk for investors and that's why I have tagged them and create red flag. If anyone disagree with me then feel free to oppose flag and counter red tag. I don't think we should make arguments between us.

Lets see you go flag Yobit then..

I think some just see the word "ponzi" and freak out, while not understanding the nuance..

It is a contract on the ETH blockchain.. If the code is legit then an exit scam should be impossible..

I don't care enough about this to go on discussing it much further and repeat myself, not much more to say other than I must not be completely crazy because if you look up I'm not the only one that saw the nuance of this situation I mention, and that's good enough for me..