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Author Topic: Reducing (removing) airdropped merits for those who didn't earn 1 single merit  (Read 877 times)
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December 17, 2019, 08:49:37 PM
 #21

Deranking a user with purely airdropped merits would do more harm than good, IMO. They were earned legitimately at the time and those users were also influential in the growth of the forum.
It could also bring a debate of whether earned merits should be removed if they are believed to be given to undeserving posts.

If the goal is to prevent their joining signature campaigns, then, top managers already have a system which prevents spammers from joining their program.
Instead of deranking maybe removing some privileges, like what was done with the enhanced newbie restrictions.


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December 17, 2019, 10:11:05 PM
 #22

Just curious about the numbers you mentioned there - How many of those 800 legendaries and 3500 Heros are actually active on the forum? If you find that out, the numbers will drop down drastically.

If the main goal is to stop signature campaign spammer, then i have another idea such as :
1. Signature limitation based on your merit amount, not your rank
2. Signature only enabled for those who earned x amount of merit within y last month
I doubt signature campaign spam is that big of a problem these days. Very less bitcoin signature campaigns and strict moderation including merits have cut it down. Extreme amounts of spam come from the altcoin bounty campaigns including massive account farming. Some merit law should definitely be implemented in those sections.

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December 17, 2019, 10:17:38 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #23

Adding UI elements is very "expensive" in the sense that it's something to which every member constantly has to devote some brainspace. So I can't see adding any kind of split merit score or other UI element, since that'd be a permanent high cost as a result of a one-time thing in the past.

I also can't see decaying non-airdropped merit scores.

I could see decaying airdropped merit, though I'm not convinced of it currently. If it was done, it may be best to do something like this:
 - Your current activity score as of <whenever this change would be done> is recorded, which I'll call EPOCH_ACTIVITY.
 - Your merit score is defined as max(0, AIRDROPPED_MERIT-(CURRENT_ACTIVITY-EPOCH_ACTIVITY)/7) + EARNED_MERIT.
 
So you'd already have had a lot of time to earn merit, and you'd get an additional 7 "activity-days" per point of merit to get back even more. Inactive users wouldn't be demoted.

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December 17, 2019, 10:44:29 PM
Merited by LoyceV (2)
 #24

I could see decaying airdropped merit, though I'm not convinced of it currently. If it was done, it may be best to do something like this:
 - Your current activity score as of <whenever this change would be done> is recorded, which I'll call EPOCH_ACTIVITY.
 - Your merit score is defined as max(0, AIRDROPPED_MERIT-(CURRENT_ACTIVITY-EPOCH_ACTIVITY)/7) + EARNED_MERIT.

If I'm reading the formula correctly, active users would lose 1 airdropped merit per week (actually, they'd lose 2 airdropped merits with every activity increase, which is on a biweekly basis.)  If it's something that is important to you and the community, that seems like a fair way of implementing it. 

Those who are active and contributing to the forum shouldn't have trouble keeping their merit score up, and those who are here to shill and spam will be able to see themselves being slowly demoted.  An airdropped Legendary who earns no merit will be demoted to a newbie in a little over 19 years.  If you can't learn to earn merit in 19 years, I guess you should be demoted to a newbie. 

I like that the formula doesn't affect inactive users.  It does seem like a very fair compromise. 

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December 17, 2019, 11:02:43 PM
 #25

I could see decaying airdropped merit, though I'm not convinced of it currently. If it was done, it may be best to do something like this:
 - Your current activity score as of <whenever this change would be done> is recorded, which I'll call EPOCH_ACTIVITY.
 - Your merit score is defined as max(0, AIRDROPPED_MERIT-(CURRENT_ACTIVITY-EPOCH_ACTIVITY)/7) + EARNED_MERIT.

If I'm reading the formula correctly, active users would lose 1 airdropped merit per week (actually, they'd lose 2 airdropped merits with every activity increase, which is on a biweekly basis.)  If it's something that is important to you and the community, that seems like a fair way of implementing it. 

Those who are active and contributing to the forum shouldn't have trouble keeping their merit score up, and those who are here to shill and spam will be able to see themselves being slowly demoted.  An airdropped Legendary who earns no merit will be demoted to a newbie in a little over 19 years.  If you can't learn to earn merit in 19 years, I guess you should be demoted to a newbie. 

I like that the formula doesn't affect inactive users.  It does seem like a very fair compromise. 

You can be an active member of the forum posting constructive replies and be engaged in active discussion and still not be merited. This is what I don't get about the merit system. People tend to merit popular users that post threads and not users that post constructive replies because constructive replies seems to be the norm for many users. So essentially, you only get merited for going above and beyond which doesn't make any sense if you're going to introduce merit decay. Secondly, it would act as a disincentive to give merit away knowing that it's just going to decay way making your overall merit lower.
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December 17, 2019, 11:41:02 PM
 #26

I could see decaying airdropped merit, though I'm not convinced of it currently. If it was done, it may be best to do something like this:
 - Your current activity score as of <whenever this change would be done> is recorded, which I'll call EPOCH_ACTIVITY.
 - Your merit score is defined as max(0, AIRDROPPED_MERIT-(CURRENT_ACTIVITY-EPOCH_ACTIVITY)/7) + EARNED_MERIT.
In this case all active users will lose their airdropped merits at a same rate.
The rate of losing airdropped merits can be a function of earned merits in the last X days too.
For example, if someone had received 500 airdropped merits and has also earned 500 merits doesn't lose airdropped merits. Because this user deserved those airdropped merits.

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December 18, 2019, 01:12:20 AM
 #27

I don't happen to think members who haven't earned even one merit should be stripped of their rank.  That would be a kick in the pants to a lot of inactive members who were otherwise very constructive members of the forum and who probably would have earned at least one merit since the system started.  Just because there are hundreds of such members, it doesn't mean they're all shitposters IMO.  Some of them certainly might be, but I just don't think those airdropped merits need to be taken away from everyone if they haven't earned any more merits.  Obviously if Theymos thought everyone should start over again, he wouldn't have airdropped any merits.
I agree with you on this. If there is demerit aims at airdropped merits, it should be done with active users only. It is a joke if a Legendary (active one) who made hundred or thousand of posts last two years but have not yet earn a single merit. But there is at least one minus point if we only based on the number of earned merits to judge the quality of one member. Because the one who runs their business here might not earn a single merit but that one might not be a shitposter. As a consequence of a mix of that (inactive good members, active shit posters, active businessmen, etc.), there will be a massive complaints in the forum when airdropped merits will be taken away, I can imagine that.

But if such things implemented and complaints pop-up, I imagine most of them will come from shitposters, not businessmen.

Something like the ratio between total posts made since the merit system's birthday per total counted days. There will be some level of demerit based on that ratio (that can be used to assess users' activities as well as posting activities).
Inactive users wouldn't be demoted.
I agree with it, too.

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December 18, 2019, 01:20:46 AM
 #28

Well if you go like this then what about the handful of legends that earn 1000 points after the 1000 were dropped.

Does my Philipma1957 account  get marked legendary2x  Grin




To suggest that air dropped accounts should be stripped merits almost 2 years after the system is in place  was not the way to do it.

To suggest starting from today to  dec 31 2020 if you don't earn  you drop 1 rank  will simply mean cheaters going to cheat.

  No one with  legendary rank  set in place  had any sense of needing to earn points.

Also a hero at 500 figured fuck I won't earn 500 points. For us humans it is simply less then perfect solution  no matter what you do.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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December 18, 2019, 08:55:21 AM
 #29

Can you imagine the amount of merit selling will happen once theymos will drop a bomb for something like this? Once the news will come flying that there is another change in the merit system for the ones who haven't earned a single merit
Of course, he wouldn't have to announce the move before making changes  Grin
That announcement would definitely cause a lot of panic and merit selling among account farmers prior to the changes

Yeah that's what I am telling that this could do more bad rather than good since either way the ones who will be abusing the merit system won't be affected by the changes at all the only ones who will be are either inactive accounts or accounts who won't be buying any merits. So if this would happen I think the best thing to do is to apply the changes first before theymos will be announcing anything about the changes which I think will be the best approach to prevent merit abuse from happening.

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December 18, 2019, 09:00:01 AM
 #30

I'm not in support of this. Dormant accounts already got screwed over by the merit update, now having to put in much more work in order to rank up even if they had the potential activity. Also, the removal of already acquired merit wouldn't do much in that regard. We're not talking about enable merit, but rather total merit. You can't remove more than the already earner rank, and I think it'd be unfair to remove base metrit based on the future activity. The merit drop's criteria where applied when it took place, no need to go back at it with new criteria.

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December 18, 2019, 09:11:01 AM
 #31

You can be an active member of the forum posting constructive replies and be engaged in active discussion and still not be merited.
If you are seeing constructive replies which are going unmerited, please post them in this thread: [self-moderated] Report unmerited good posts to Merit Source.

Secondly, it would act as a disincentive to give merit away knowing that it's just going to decay way making your overall merit lower.
Only airdropped merit would decay under theymos' proposal above, not earned merit.

Yeah that's what I am telling that this could do more bad rather than good since either way the ones who will be abusing the merit system won't be affected by the changes at all the only ones who will be are either inactive accounts or accounts who won't be buying any merits.
I don't think that's true.

When theymos introduced the "1 merit for Junior Member" (and therefore a signature) requirement, there was a noticeable and measurable reduction in spam over the following weeks: The new rule (1 Merit for Jr. Member) is already reducing spam. This is despite all the merit selling and awarding to alt accounts that went on. There would be presumably be less merit selling and alt accounts now, since a lot of accounts involved in this will have used up much of their airdropped sMerits, without earning any more.

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December 18, 2019, 09:57:09 AM
Last edit: December 18, 2019, 02:10:19 PM by LoyceV
 #32

I could see decaying airdropped merit, though I'm not convinced of it currently. If it was done, it may be best to do something like this:
 - Your current activity score as of <whenever this change would be done> is recorded, which I'll call EPOCH_ACTIVITY.
 - Your merit score is defined as max(0, AIRDROPPED_MERIT-(CURRENT_ACTIVITY-EPOCH_ACTIVITY)/7) + EARNED_MERIT.
If I understand this correctly, I see several flaws:
1. A user can increase his Merit score by deleting old posts (which reduces his Activity)
2. Users without airdropped Merit would start losing their earned Merit because it's not limited to AIRDROPPED_MERIT
3. Users who run out of airdropped Merit will also start losing their earned Merit

Update: DdmrDdmr is right, I was wrong!

I've suggested before to link decaying airdropped Merit to post count, not activity. This prevents an old user with more posts than Activity from losing his rank when he returns to the forum and makes just 1 post (and his activity goes up by 14).

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December 18, 2019, 10:15:10 AM
 #33

I think he was talking about the users which didn't earn even a single merit in almost 2 years, though, and not about all the users who received the airdrop... After all, this is the subject of the thread...

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December 18, 2019, 10:45:52 AM
 #34

You wrote a very goot OP, and I think you posted your ideas in a sensible manner,
I tought about it in the past, but didn't wrote anything to avoid offend anyone or being engaged in fights. But you made a good job:I don't see anyone being offended by your ideas being explained.

I have the same feeling about the "old" merits, airdropped or not, and some other made already good points.
If we are going to decay airdropped merit, it should decay for everyone in a uniform fashion. Decaying at different rates for different people will just add more confusion to the system, not less.


It's unnecessary and would create more than problem than it resolves.

If the main goal is to stop signature campaign spammer, then i have another idea such as :
1. Signature limitation based on your merit amount, not your rank
2. Signature only enabled for those who earned x amount of merit within y last month

I would agree in principle on the following:
  • Decaying merits for everyone on a long enough period (2 years?)
  • Rank based on "highest merit in history" (sticky, never to be reduced).
  • As ETF suggested, signature limitation based on current merit amount.

So, if you were very active in the past, you would be legendary anyway, even if not active now (what's the best definition of legenday btw?)
An user like Satoshi would have a legendary rank, even if with few merits.

All the current attributes of each profile would get a different meaning:
  • Merits would mean something about your "currrent" engagement on the forum and quality of posts.
  • Rank/trust would refer to your quality history on the forum (best example: satoshi)
  • Activity would only refers to your seniority on the forum

Only downside i think is a little bit ov overcomplicating something made to be simple. is it worth it?


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December 18, 2019, 10:56:59 AM
Merited by fillippone (1)
 #35

I tought about it in the past.
You wrote a very goot OP, and I think you posted your ideas in a sensible manner, I don't see anyone being offended by your ideas being explained.

Thank you, fillippone. I have to say that I thought a lot (writing, deleting and re-writing words / sentences) until I finally chose my words, both when I first PMed theymos (who suggested to create this topic) and also when I wrote the thread. Without his suggestion, however, I wouldn't have dared to start such a delicate discussion, as when you talk about a sensible subject, if you don't choose the right words and if you don't explain clearly, you might get misunderstood and the whole subject may go in a wrong direction. I'm glad it didn't happen though.

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December 18, 2019, 11:13:58 AM
Merited by LoyceV (2)
 #36

<…>
I’d say that 1 is correct, but 2 and 3 aren’t, since the max(0, 0 – activityCalculusResult) would be 0 (the max function, as is, would return 0 when compared to a negative value).

Note: In the same package, we should probably include perhaps the question on airdropped derivate sMerits, unused for nearly 2 years. These could suddenly gain a "utility" for some of those who haven’t found one yet for them (to "contribute" towards avoiding the de-ranking of other accounts).

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December 18, 2019, 12:15:41 PM
 #37

Yeah that's what I am telling that this could do more bad rather than good since either way the ones who will be abusing the merit system won't be affected by the changes at all the only ones who will be are either inactive accounts or accounts who won't be buying any merits.
I don't think that's true.

When theymos introduced the "1 merit for Junior Member" (and therefore a signature) requirement, there was a noticeable and measurable reduction in spam over the following weeks: The new rule (1 Merit for Jr. Member) is already reducing spam. This is despite all the merit selling and awarding to alt accounts that went on. There would be presumably be less merit selling and alt accounts now, since a lot of accounts involved in this will have used up much of their airdropped sMerits, without earning any more.

I get your point but if you look at the proposal at the top where users are required to at least earn 1 merit on a certain period just to avoid the decay of their merits you will understand that this will be a lucrative business for merit sellers, some normal member might even be merit sellers because of this idea. Yes this might encourage people to finally share their merits as well but like I said this will also encourage members to sell their extra merits for cash which will increase because of this proposal.

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December 18, 2019, 05:27:21 PM
 #38

If the main goal is to stop signature campaign spammer, then i have another idea such as :
1. Signature limitation based on your merit amount, not your rank
2. Signature only enabled for those who earned x amount of merit within y last month
I doubt signature campaign spam is that big of a problem these days. Very less bitcoin signature campaigns and strict moderation including merits have cut it down. Extreme amounts of spam come from the altcoin bounty campaigns including massive account farming. Some merit law should definitely be implemented in those sections.

When i'm talking about "signature campaign spammer", it included altcoin/token/bounty signature campaign.

If it combined with more strict rule (e.g. only member who've earned 100 merit or more who have signature privilege), IMO it'd be very effective to stop spam.

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December 18, 2019, 06:02:07 PM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #39

If you are seeing constructive replies which are going unmerited, please post them in this thread: [self-moderated] Report unmerited good posts to Merit Source.

That's not the point though. I'm not spamming one liners but any posts I have made in Bitcoin discussion have received no merit. I've only gotten merit for posting in meta/politics and society which tend to be more hot button topics rather than constructive discussion about cryptos, for example. Merit is not a good measurement of contribution and there are plenty of members who post constructively as a norm that shouldn't be posted in this thread. There'd be way too many replies to post. Nearly every legendary member of the forum posts non-spam and should earn merit for every 10 posts they make by default because they're the last type of members to post spam.

Only airdropped merit would decay under theymos' proposal above, not earned merit.

I understand that, but merit is displayed as one overall number. Not split into merit and sMerit. So when merit decays, your overall number decreases and now you lose overall merit through sending merit, and decaying. This would certainly act as a disincentive to send merit if you are now losing merit two ways.


Seems people that are advocating for merit decay are members that post too much on drama ridden boards and receive merit for posting on hot button topics more than anything. The idea that you can lose your ranking as a legendary member for posting because you joined the forum earlier on seems rather outrageous. This would presumably apply to Hero's, Sr., Full, ect.

If the idea is to use merit to stop farming accounts in order to allow newbies - Jr. to stop spam, I think it's a great idea. However, decaying merit only effects more established members who don't spend their entire life on this forum racking in merit but also post constructively.
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December 18, 2019, 08:14:35 PM
 #40

That's not the point though. I'm not spamming one liners but any posts I have made in Bitcoin discussion have received no merit.
That's not unique to you - Bitcoin Discussion is a mess, that's why. The last data I saw showed it has the lowest merit per post ratio of any of the non-altcoin boards. Most threads turn in to spamfests, and no one with any sense is reading past the 3rd page or so. Any replies on threads like that aren't even going to get seen, let alone merited.

Nearly every legendary member of the forum posts non-spam and should earn merit for every 10 posts they make by default because they're the last type of members to post spam.
Totally disagree with you here. There are plenty of legendary members which just spam one or two line nonsense. I went to Altcoin Discussion, clicked on the first megathread I saw (this one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5165503.0), and Ctrl+F for "legendary". Here are some of the profiles I came across in the space of a few pages:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=407887
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=162975
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=22145
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=358450
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=148225
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=101432

They are all spammers. It took me a total of under a minute to find these 6 profiles. There are plenty more.

Not split into merit and sMerit. So when merit decays, your overall number decreases and now you lose overall merit through sending merit, and decaying. This would certainly act as a disincentive to send merit if you are now losing merit two ways.
I think you misunderstand. Merit and sMerit are totally separate. Your merit score will never decrease because of sending sMerit to other people.

The idea that you can lose your ranking as a legendary member for posting because you joined the forum earlier on seems rather outrageous.
Almost everyone (theymos included) has agreed that while airdropped merit could/should decay, ranks should not.

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