Reducing (removing) airdropped merits for those who didn't earn 1 single merit

[Gyfts]

That's not unique to you - Bitcoin Discussion is a mess, that's why. The last data I saw showed it has the lowest merit per post ratio of any of the non-altcoin boards. Most threads turn in to spamfests, and no one with any sense is reading past the 3rd page or so. Any replies on threads like that aren't even going to get seen, let alone merited.

Bitcoin Discussion invites the most spam, you're right. I think that's why it's hard to gauge for post quality when you're viewing a thread using Bitcoin discussion because quality replies by people who aren't brain dead are cluttered with lower level members with broken English spamming 1 liners.

Nearly every legendary member of the forum posts non-spam and should earn merit for every 10 posts they make by default because they're the last type of members to post spam.
Totally disagree with you here. There are plenty of legendary members which just spam one or two line nonsense. I went to Altcoin Discussion, clicked on the first megathread I saw (this one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5165503.0), and Ctrl+F for "legendary". Here are some of the profiles I came across in the space of a few pages:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=407887
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=162975
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=22145
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=358450
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=148225
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=101432

They are all spammers. It took me a total of under a minute to find these 6 profiles. There are plenty more.

Okay, fair enough, you got me here. Surprising to see such shit quality posters that are legendary but I don't browse altcoins at all so that's probably why I have a skewed view. Legendary members in Bitcoin discussion, meta, and P&S tend to have great discussion value added by legendary members so I'll leave it at that.

I think you misunderstand. Merit and sMerit are totally separate. Your merit score will never decrease because of sending sMerit to other people.

Huh? Well, didn't know that. I was under the impression that went you send merit, your overall merit score decreases unless you are a merit source. My misunderstanding.

The idea that you can lose your ranking as a legendary member for posting because you joined the forum earlier on seems rather outrageous.
Almost everyone (theymos included) has agreed that while airdropped merit could/should decay, ranks should not.

Good, but like I said the problem still persists that members can be active in forums that are cluttered with spam, ie Bitcoin discussion, where valuable posts are not merited because they aren't seen enough. I don't think we should leave it to chance that good quality posts are seen by people who will eventually send merit in a system where merit becomes decayed.

I will concede, though, that the initial merit airdrop seemed fairly generous and that it doesn't allow newer members to catch up efficiently.

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[o_e_l_e_o]

I don't think we should leave it to chance that good quality posts are seen by people who will eventually send merit in a system where merit becomes decayed.

Unfortunately the merit system will always have an element of chance in it, depending on who reads which threads and how many sMerits they have available at the time, which is why there are initiatives like the one I linked to before to try to identify and rectify any posts which are un- or under-merited.

Merit decay will have no effect on this though. Regardless of whether or not airdropped merit is decayed, there would be the same amount of sMerit available and the same amount of merit being circulated, and I wouldn't propose to introduce decay for sMerit. It's up to regular users not to hoard their sMerit and distribute it.

[gentlemand]

I absolutely think all airdropped merit should be removed.

I wouldn't be bothered if the legacy ranks remained but if you wanted to move up a rank you should have to start from a zero airdrop count just like a newbie. If you have contributed little to nothing of note in two long years then you shouldn't get a free leg up. You'll still be a good rank.

To go further you'll need to prove you've still got what it takes, not that most of them had it in the first place. Most were account farmers. I don't really regard ranks earned under the old system as in any way legitimate. All you had to was not get banned and shitpost once a day for 2-3 years to be a legend. But if it stays it stays.

If you became a legend before but have disappeared then you will remain a legend in our hearts and on the page but your merit score, or total lack thereof, will quickly illuminate your present status.

[tbct_mt2]

I absolutely think all airdropped merit should be removed.

I wouldn't be bothered if the legacy ranks remained but if you wanted to move up a rank you should have to start from a zero airdrop count just like a newbie. If you have contributed little to nothing of note in two long years then you shouldn't get a free leg up. You'll still be a good rank.

To go further you'll need to prove you've still got what it takes, not that most of them had it in the first place. Most were account farmers. I don't really regard ranks earned under the old system as in any way legitimate. All you had to was not get banned and shitpost once a day for 2-3 years to be a legend. But if it stays it stays.

If you became a legend before but have disappeared then you will remain a legend in our hearts and on the page but your merit score, or total lack thereof, will quickly illuminate your present status.

When demerits and / or deranks happen separately or concurrently, there will be another massive drama in the forum as we saw when merit system debuted.

But you are right that a Legendary is always a Legendary in the eyes of the others, no matter which rank that account wears. We can not deny the fact that Satoshi is a Legendary, forever. The same for Hal Finney, and nearly the same for nullius (who were the most oustanding guys in early weeks after merit system's debut).

For people who run business with accounts in the forum, ranks are not matter. Their accounts' ages and good trust histories make more sense than ranks.

[gentlemand]

When demerits and / or deranks happen separately or concurrently, there will be another massive drama in the forum as we saw when merit system debuted.

I think it'll probably equal out in terms of popularity versus outrage. It must really annoy the newcomers who are trying to see absolute fucking deadbeats lording over them.

The sooner anything with a financial incentive that requires an indication of your worthiness switches 100% to earned merit rather than rank the healthier this forum will be. Plenty of campaign managers already do this but the total removal of the rank factor would help.

[Cnut237]

When demerits and / or deranks happen separately or concurrently, there will be another massive drama in the forum as we saw when merit system debuted.

I think it'll probably equal out in terms of popularity versus outrage. It must really annoy the newcomers who are trying to see absolute fucking deadbeats lording over them.

The sooner anything with a financial incentive that requires an indication of your worthiness switches 100% to earned merit rather than rank the healthier this forum will be. Plenty of campaign managers already do this but the total removal of the rank factor would help.

I think demerits would be an awful idea. People would start handing them out every time they disagreed with someone else's opinion. You'd end up with a situation where people are scared to post anything even remotely contentious. It would hamper free discussion (as well as those hilarious snarky one-liner put-downs).

Yes, the merit system isn't 100% fair; a lot of good posts get overlooked. And yes, perhaps the initial airdrop was too generous, but it was needed in order for people to maintain their existing ranks. I suspect we'd never reach a consensus on what is fair. Perhaps the airdropped merit could have contained an in-built decay mechanism whereby you had to keep earning merit to maintain your rank until the airdrop was fully eaten away. I have no idea how complex that would have been to implement, but again it's unlikely it would have been popular.

Let's just stick with what we've got.

[gentlemand]

I think demerits would be an awful idea. People would start handing them out every time they disagreed with someone else's opinion. You'd end up with a situation where people are scared to post anything even remotely contentious. It would hamper free discussion (as well as those hilarious snarky one-liner put-downs).

No one said anything about demerits beyond removing all of the airdropped stuff for everyone in one fell swoop.

I'm fine with ranks staying. I think it should be made clear how that rank was earned by removing the unearned merit.

[cabalism13]

People would start handing them out every time they disagreed with someone else's opinion.

There's a fair solution to that if that Demerit sabotage of topic of yours were to implemented, and it will be like this:
Going with USER x, y, z: and Giving 2 Merits = 1Demerit Power
If User X gave User Y 2Merits, User X can get 1 Demerit Power for using against User Y...
Then if User Z Disagrees with User Y, he/she can't Demerit User Y for he doesn't have any Demerit Power for User Y.

That would be a hell of script/codes just for that, I guess?

Yes, the merit system isn't 100% fair; a lot of good posts get overlooked. And yes, perhaps the initial airdrop was too generous, but it was needed in order for people to maintain their existing ranks.

The suggestion is just for another shitty guys who doesn't care about the Merit System just because they're already on a high rank.

I suspect we'd never reach a consensus on what is fair.

Everything has flaws.

Let's just stick with what we've got.

Suggestions can be of help whenever the system goes into failure. Besides it doesn't always go, the way we expect it to be.


Nothing to do here for the likes of us who started with Zero Merits but still,  I do want to see the decaying Airdropped Merits as time goes by.

[gmaxwell]

I sometimes merit old posts with the thought in mind that eventually airdropped merit will be eliminated or the rank requirements will be increased so that airdrops wouldn't be enough. less often now that spending a few months inactive caused my source to get hobbled.

One possibility would just be listing the grandfathered rank separately.  "Hero Member / Legacy Legendary".

Of course, my perspective on the relative ease of getting merit is no doubt highly atypical.

When Satoshi Nakamoto will look at his account, how will he feel- hellllll, I am a newbie Just kidding.

FWIW, Satoshi has received enough merit to rank legendary.

[Carlton Banks]

I support this (and called for it myself a while back)

There is an outstanding issue though for me: what about people that received airdropped sMerit? Alot did, and it gave existing high rankers an opportunity to shape the league table (whatever that's really worth). I wasn't especially keen on giving out merit I didn't earn (and still have about ~130 unsent sMerit), but then again alot of the merit I received was itself doubtless airdropped, no-one had any control over receiving it. It's a messier change when you consider this issue.

That said, if all airdropped merit (both sMerit and rank-supporting merit) was revoked, I have no problem dropping down to Hero member or less (which I likely would)

[marlboroza]

There is an outstanding issue though for me: what about people that received airdropped sMerit? Alot did, and it gave existing high rankers an opportunity to shape the league table (whatever that's really worth). I wasn't especially keen on giving out merit I didn't earn (and still have about ~130 unsent sMerit), but then again alot of the merit I received was itself doubtless airdropped, no-one had any control over receiving it. It's a messier change when you consider this issue.

I don't agree with this. Someone who has received merit which was previously airdropped probably deserve that merit, so why would you remove those merits? Doesn't make much sense to remove merits from constructive posts, "airdropped" or not.

Tell one good reason why this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.msg25949072#msg25949072 should have most(all?) merits removed.
I would like to see statistics on ranks without received merits which came from airdropped merits, if anyone can do this?

[DireWolfM14]

There is an outstanding issue though for me: what about people that received airdropped sMerit? Alot did, and it gave existing high rankers an opportunity to shape the league table (whatever that's really worth). I wasn't especially keen on giving out merit I didn't earn (and still have about ~130 unsent sMerit), but then again alot of the merit I received was itself doubtless airdropped, no-one had any control over receiving it. It's a messier change when you consider this issue.

I think if it's something that Theymos wants to do, he should consider the method that has the least immediate impact.   There's no reason to retroactively demote thousands of accounts overnight.

As for your point about airdropped sMerit, I don't think those should be demerited.  Being a "New Era Newbie" myself, I'm sure many of the merit I've earned originated as sMerit that airdropped to older members, and revoking that from the countless accounts that have ranked up as a result would be quite disheartening.

[fillippone]

That said, if all airdropped merit (both sMerit and rank-supporting merit) was revoked, I have no problem dropping down to Hero member or less (which I likely would)

You gained enough merits (for sure) and i think activity to be Legendary even without airdropped merits.

https://bpip.org/profile.aspx?p=Carlton+Banks

Legendary rank in your case is something not easy to strip out of you, fortunately, If I may add.

[o_e_l_e_o]

-snip-

But if we revoke all merits which came from airdropped sMerit, then what do we do with all the sMerit that came from those merits? Do we revoke them too? If we follow this line of reasoning, then all merit other than that from merit source's monthly allocations would be removed. And is there really much difference between sMerit which was given freely to all forum users at the start and sMerit which is given freely to merit sources? As you say, it becomes too messy a change.

Decay airdropped merit over time, leave all sMerits and earned merits alone, leave all ranks alone. Perhaps further down the line we can then consider linking signature privileges to earned merit rather than ranks.

[hosseinimr93]

-snip-

But if we revoke all merits which came from airdropped sMerit, then what do we do with all the sMerit that came from those merits? Do we revoke them too?

I add another question.
And how to know whether the merit user X sent to user Y was an airdropped smerit or an earned smerit?

[Carlton Banks]

Someone who has received merit which was previously airdropped probably deserve that merit, so why would you remove those merits? Doesn't make much sense to remove merits from constructive posts, "airdropped" or not.

yeah, that's a good argument to be fair.

And how to know whether the merit user X sent to user Y was an airdropped smerit or an earned smerit?

yep, I imagine the merits are actually just one homogenous pool, so there is likely no way to discern airdropped sMerit from sourced sMerit, why would there be? scrap that thought

still though, that (unsolvable) issue further underlines how messy the change would be, but fuck it, I still think it ought to be done

[eddie13]

I'm not sure it would be completely fair and just to take back rank from old accounts that made their rank before the merit system, because their are probably a lot of good users that don't get a lot of merits, but if anything I think theymos's algorithm is pretty good because it won't de-rank inactive users, but still might not be completely fair to users who continue to be active but only post once or twice per activity period..

Me personally, go ahead and take my airdropped 500 and give me the rare opportunity to make Legendary TWICE..
Just hurry up before I get to 1500 or it won't work

[hosseinimr93]

I just checked merit history of OP.

@GazetaBitcoin, it seems that not only you want airdropped merits removed, but also, you want no user to receive merit.  

Or you have not read the following statement.

"There is no point in hoarding sMerit; keeping it yourself does not benefit you, and we reserve the right to decay unused sMerit in the future."

Or you have not read any post that deserves merit.

[GazetaBitcoin]

I knew there is no point in hoarding merits.

I intended to use them in the Romanian board, in a merit giveaway topic. However, as far as I saw, the Romanian board is almost completely inactive, therefore I'll use the sMerits I have in the international boards.

[Coyster]

I intended to use them in the Romanian board, in a merit giveaway topic.

I don't quite fancy hoarding smerits to distribute them to a particular board via a giveaway(do not take my word for it, you can do what you wish with your Smerits), but for the love of God if everyone hoarded their smerits and saved them for giveaways on some boards then you wouldn't even have any smerits for your own giveaway on the Romanian board.