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Author Topic: DEX(es) how should they work with FIAT  (Read 153 times)
Gabrics
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December 20, 2019, 08:29:29 PM
Merited by hugeblack (1)
 #1

Hi Guys,

There is a lot of talk recently about Decentralized Exchanges.

I kind of understand how a DEX can operate inside a single blockchain or even between two blockchains.

But:
I simply don't get how can you use a DEX for FIAT<>Bitcoin? I mean there are no visible smart contract on the FIAT side. So the SWIFT/FIAT transaction really can't be verified (I hope we won't count a bank print-out "proof of wire" as proof). Without this "little detail" one can't prove the FIAT side at all. Of course the crypto seller can "ok" the FIAT when arrived and release the funds, but what if he/she claims it didn't arrive? How can the sender proove (and to whom)?

As far as I know 3rd parties (wire to an intermediary/escrow) is not really an option (legally). It would also make the transaction and the exchange pretty much not decentralized.

Please enlighten me, if you can Wink

Thanks
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December 20, 2019, 11:13:19 PM
Merited by hugeblack (1)
 #2

I simply don't get how can you use a DEX for FIAT<>Bitcoin? I mean there are no visible smart contract on the FIAT side.

it technically can't be done. that is, the process cannot be made fully decentralized and trustless. outside of face-to-face cash transactions, fiat always entails third party custody. you can distribute that third party custody beyond a single point of failure, but you cannot fully remove the need for third party custody and trust.

bisq.network is a good example. it's a huge improvement over centralized exchanges in that it uses a DAO to handle escrow/arbitration/voting. but at the end of the day, this is a pretty accurate description:

Quote
Quote
it never has custody of your funds
It does. There is a security deposit and escrow. It might be temporarily owned/held by more than one individual, with a complex way of keeping it away from any one person or company, but the money isn't just peer-to-peer. There is a central system that it has to go through and be held by.

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December 21, 2019, 04:46:49 AM
Merited by hugeblack (1)
 #3

Some dexes use stablecoins to solve this problem. While it's not ideal as it still depends on third-party, they don't require direct KYC for the traders.

Other than that, maybe you should not use fiat if you plan to trade on DEX.


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December 21, 2019, 04:47:54 AM
 #4

I simply don't get how can you use a DEX for FIAT<>Bitcoin? I mean there are no visible smart contract on the FIAT side.
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December 21, 2019, 05:09:40 AM
 #5

I simply don't get how can you use a DEX for FIAT<>Bitcoin? I mean there are no visible smart contract on the FIAT side.

Technically you cannot crete one. It is possible to create a stable coin but stable coin do not fall under the category of decentralised enviornment.
If you are somehow able to do it also, you will basically lose the concept of decentralised.

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December 21, 2019, 06:36:17 AM
 #6

Thanks for the feedbacks! So stablecoins or bust Wink (which will come with its KYC when you cash out AFAIK).

Does anyone have any experience with SWIFT?
I believe SWIFT transaction are query-able assuming you know the relevant details. It needs a SWIFT "capable" 3rd party to verify, but it only needs to be done if the wire didn't arrive (eg. not confirmed by the recipient).
Also it is just a relatively easy to replace validator, money never goes there and this entity wouldn't see those transactions whose went through fine.

Would love to see/use a DEX using this kind of FIAT side verification - if needed.
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December 21, 2019, 06:41:12 AM
 #7

You could probably easily sell with fiat on a dex. I am just thinking here of a better implementation of p2p, but you can have a system that escrows crypto only, not fiat. Of course that does seem to be all you need I think. Problem is fiat is reversible, crypto is not. So even with crypto escrowed you might run the risk as a seller that the fiat payment is reversed later.



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December 21, 2019, 07:59:15 AM
 #8

I am just thinking here of a better implementation of p2p, but you can have a system that escrows crypto only, not fiat. Of course that does seem to be all you need I think. Problem is fiat is reversible, crypto is not. So even with crypto escrowed you might run the risk as a seller that the fiat payment is reversed later.
All decentralized exchange was using a peer-to-peer protocol system and it is good cryptocurrencies only, it is very risky to use fiat because when you have done transfer your crypto to the buyer it is not reversible but the money you are going to receive was probably reverse and you end up frauded. Face to face and pay a physical currency is feel better and use escrow but wait until the fiat they sent was you fully cash out.

Does anyone have any experience with SWIFT?
That is a good move you have, the transparent way in making transactions between banks that can be trace between two parties. I didn't experience this but I think this is good.





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December 22, 2019, 07:45:25 PM
 #9

So if/when someone will approach (and convince...) SWIFT and hence will be able to monitor wires if need => then we could have a great DEX with FIAT support.

Besides reversibility, but I think there is a limit on that too. I mean the timeframe of reversal also handled by SWIFT if the messaging goes through them.
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December 22, 2019, 10:06:03 PM
 #10

So if/when someone will approach (and convince...) SWIFT and hence will be able to monitor wires if need => then we could have a great DEX with FIAT support.

depending on SWIFT or SEPA or fedwire is totally centralized though. first, we would need to trust them to make wire transfer receipts transparent and accessible through an API of sorts. then we would need to depend on third party services to monitor the API and execute smart contracts.

i dunno what this would be called, but certainly not a DEX.

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December 22, 2019, 11:52:44 PM
 #11


But:
I simply don't get how can you use a DEX for FIAT<>Bitcoin? I mean there are no visible smart contract on the FIAT side. So the SWIFT/FIAT transaction really can't be verified (I hope we won't count a bank print-out "proof of wire" as proof). Without this "little detail" one can't prove the FIAT side at all. Of course the crypto seller can "ok" the FIAT when arrived and release the funds, but what if he/she claims it didn't arrive? How can the sender proove (and to whom)?

It would be impossible to use DEX for FIAT withdrawals or deposits. Because DEX does not provide the information needed for the use of the BANK Account. And we know that DEX is made to maintain the privacy of its users.

In contrast to a Centralized Exchange that requires KYC and BANK Account information for FIAT withdrawal and deposit needs. Both are very different.

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mobnepal
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December 22, 2019, 11:56:16 PM
 #12

Dex already support fiat-crypto trading in the form of stable coin but to cashout those stable coin you have to trust respective entities who have created those stable coins so it cant be trustless and fully decentralized. So called Government backed coin after launch will be just similar to existing stable coin with more regulation and they might even keep their blockchain private.

In future, i doubt even these dex will exist. They might be shut down by regulators just like how they busted coin mixers.
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December 23, 2019, 12:00:06 AM
 #13

I am just thinking here of a better implementation of p2p, but you can have a system that escrows crypto only, not fiat. Of course that does seem to be all you need I think. Problem is fiat is reversible, crypto is not. So even with crypto escrowed you might run the risk as a seller that the fiat payment is reversed later.
All decentralized exchange was using a peer-to-peer protocol system and it is good cryptocurrencies only, it is very risky to use fiat because when you have done transfer your crypto to the buyer it is not reversible but the money you are going to receive was probably reverse and you end up frauded. Face to face and pay a physical currency is feel better and use escrow but wait until the fiat they sent was you fully cash out.

Does anyone have any experience with SWIFT?
That is a good move you have, the transparent way in making transactions between banks that can be trace between two parties. I didn't experience this but I think this is good.

Suggesting to deal with someone face to face isn't safer. I even would say you have more risks to get scammed compared to a bank transfer.
I could give quickly a dozen examples on "how to"

And to add to the ideas.
If you need to monitor APIs or something alike, you need a 3rd party, so the question ends at this point since "decentralization and banks don't go together

It's technically possible, not even need to create a smart contract but again you need a 3rd party.

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December 23, 2019, 12:52:05 AM
 #14

I simply don't get how can you use a DEX for FIAT<>Bitcoin? I mean there are no visible smart contract on the FIAT side.

it technically can't be done. that is, the process cannot be made fully decentralized and trustless. outside of face-to-face cash transactions, fiat always entails third party custody. you can distribute that third party custody beyond a single point of failure, but you cannot fully remove the need for third party custody and trust.

bisq.network is a good example. it's a huge improvement over centralized exchanges in that it uses a DAO to handle escrow/arbitration/voting. but at the end of the day, this is a pretty accurate description:

Quote
Quote
it never has custody of your funds
It does. There is a security deposit and escrow. It might be temporarily owned/held by more than one individual, with a complex way of keeping it away from any one person or company, but the money isn't just peer-to-peer. There is a central system that it has to go through and be held by.

It technically could be done, if any governments were to switch over to a decentralized and open sourced cryptocurrency. However, I don't see that happening any time soon, if ever, since they like the ability to print currency.

I could technically see a crypto built whereby say something similar to DASH exists. Basically you have an entity entitled to some amount of the appropriations year over year. That could be the government. The rest of the rewards would be used to pay off miners securing the network.

This, of course, gives them less control over the money supply, which they probably view as quite bad and needless is the overall problem.

But if any auxiliary country decides to try doing this as a novel feature, it could be a part/function of reality of a DEX.

Until then, yes, it's purely fantasy and relies on some sense of decentralization in the best case scenarios.




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December 23, 2019, 03:32:23 AM
 #15

TLSnotary's PageSigner that Bisq uses is the most that can be done to prove that a fiat transfer took or did not take place:

https://docs.bisq.network/trading-rules#notarized-bank-site
https://tlsnotary.org/pagesigner.html

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December 23, 2019, 06:02:58 AM
 #16

TLSnotary's PageSigner that Bisq uses is the most that can be done to prove that a fiat transfer took or did not take place:

https://docs.bisq.network/trading-rules#notarized-bank-site
https://tlsnotary.org/pagesigner.html

Interesting idea and better than nothing. I still believe though that proof of one's screen (however signed the screenshot itself is) doesn't prove a thing Sad The digitally signed bank letter seems better, but good luck getting that from your bank. Also if you (as a FIAT buyer) claim they can't provide such thing there is no way to force/check.

Big risk if you wish to sell with 4-5+ digits USD amounts...
I think until this is solved selling any meaningful amount for FIAT on DEXs is kind of a gamble.
(even ebay like reputation is not a real solution)
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December 23, 2019, 08:30:25 AM
 #17

Some dexes use stablecoins to solve this problem. While it's not ideal as it still depends on third-party, they don't require direct KYC for the traders. Other than that, maybe you should not use fiat if you plan to trade on DEX.

This is actually the best solution in my point of view. Stablecoin can then be playing a big role in decentralized exchanges as it would be not recommended for them to be using the usual fiat monies. And I am sure that traders and just plain exchange users would not have any problem with the use of stablecoins, in the first place.
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December 23, 2019, 03:26:12 PM
 #18

Unfortunately, the term decentralization " DEX(es) " has come to be called without its real meaning, and many platforms take advantage of these words to increase the demand for the platform and the conversion is done through many central methods.
Decentralization has come to mean that there will be no restrictions on personal identity (KYC & AML) and thus provide an anonymity feature, which is one of the reasons for using these platforms.
When we deal with Fiat, we deal with centralized systems and thus the definition of decentralization in them differs from real money, cryptocurrencies or smart contracts.





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December 27, 2019, 09:49:47 PM
 #19

Interesting idea and better than nothing. I still believe though that proof of one's screen (however signed the screenshot itself is) doesn't prove a thing Sad The digitally signed bank letter seems better, but good luck getting that from your bank. Also if you (as a FIAT buyer) claim they can't provide such thing there is no way to force/check.

Big risk if you wish to sell with 4-5+ digits USD amounts...
I think until this is solved selling any meaningful amount for FIAT on DEXs is kind of a gamble.
(even ebay like reputation is not a real solution)

Please read more into it how PageSigner works, it's more than just a screenshot, you won't get anything better unless banks get their shit together.

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