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Author Topic: Bitcoin Store of Value Question  (Read 193 times)
el kaka22
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December 23, 2019, 03:20:26 PM
 #21

You can't be considered criminal for holding the bitcoin someone else used for something criminal. I don't know where you made that up but if someone steals crypto from an exchange for example and moved it through a mixer and then you ended up with it, cops do not look where the money is right now in that scenario, they look where it came from and the transactions and they check out what the people who gave it to you are doing right now.

So, the emphasis is not the bitcoin itself that reached to your pocket, it is the people who gave it to you and that is why they follow them up, as soon as bitcoin leaves their wallet and enters yours, they start watching what they are doing with alts you gave them or fiat you gave them and not check what you do with the bitcoins you got from them.

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figmentofmyass
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December 23, 2019, 06:47:09 PM
 #22

You can't be considered criminal for holding the bitcoin someone else used for something criminal. I don't know where you made that up but if someone steals crypto from an exchange for example and moved it through a mixer and then you ended up with it, cops do not look where the money is right now in that scenario, they look where it came from and the transactions and they check out what the people who gave it to you are doing right now.

you might be cleared of wrongdoing, especially if you could prove you obtained the coins with legitimate funds, but this scenario could also result in:
-exchanges freezing/closing your accounts and reporting you to law enforcement
-law enforcement investigating you and possibly even seizing your money with civil asset forfeiture

https://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/03/civil-asset-forfeiture-7-things-you-should-know

Quote
Civil asset forfeiture is a legal tool that allows law enforcement officials to seize property that they assert has been involved in certain criminal activity. In fact, the owner of the property doesn’t even need to be guilty of a crime: Civil asset forfeiture proceedings charge the property itself with involvement in a crime. This means that police can seize your car, home, money, or valuables without ever having to charge you with a crime.

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December 23, 2019, 09:02:39 PM
 #23

There is no reason why 1BTC should be more valuable than the other. Always 1BTC = 1BTC. 21 million BTCs are all created in the same way, are charged the same fee and have the same price. In addition, many of the BTCs on the market have been used on darkweb many years ago. We do not have such a choice, and I do not think it is necessary. Whenever blood splashes on the BTC paid for the murder, we will differentiate them.

Theoretically you are correct but in reality, virgin bitcoins are more valuable than normal bitcoin. Technically, both are bitcoins but the virgin one is being sold at premium in the market. The premium ranges from 10% to as much as 30% in some cases. Read the below article,

https://medium.com/@official_83664/what-are-virgin-bitcoins-and-where-can-i-buy-them-d6eab0f669e0

Due to the transparent blockchain technology, it is easier for the regulatory agencies to track down the bitcoins that are used in illegal settlements! Probably a normal human being like you and me, won't be able to differentiate between these "blood bitcoins" to "virgin bitcoin", but there are companies like chainanalysis or Ciphertrace is pioneering such techniques! Slowly becoming a reason of concern!
Thank you for the article, and I guess I have heard about it a long time ago. Anyway, as long as virgin BTC is on the same wallet, its status will not change. Someone who wants to sell it at a higher price should sell it with private key so that its virginity is not compromised. Because it will not stop after the place is changed. Personally, to me, I can only consider its virginity as being different than others. Otherwise, BTC is BTC.
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December 23, 2019, 10:13:57 PM
 #24

Fiat that we use every day has likely at some point been used by criminals, but no one runs around taking cash from people's wallets. This obsession with virgin bitcoins is just a paranoia, people are ready to pay a premium to sleep well at night, it's their choice, but smart people would just use mixer if they feel like the coins that they received might be dirty.

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December 24, 2019, 02:50:08 AM
 #25

There is no metric for these I think. It may not even be possible to inspect whether a certain Bitcoin is dirtier or cleaner than the rest. That sounds absurd to me. A Bitcoin is a Bitcoin. It cannot be labeled clean or dirty. It depends on the person using it. Just like fiat. Fiat is neither clean nor dirty but the users are.
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December 24, 2019, 05:50:16 AM
 #26

Bitcoin whitepaper never claimed it as storage of value,so you are using at your own risk if you are looking for something better than gold which has constant value compared to any other asset in this world.


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December 24, 2019, 06:56:24 AM
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 #27

So each Bitcoin in the Eco-system today isn't equal. Some Bitcoins were used in a crime , and if they were , they can be worth less because of the transactions that have been facilitated with that specific Bitcoin. And if there was a crime that happened 20 transactions ago , and you now have that specific Bitcoin , can you be indicted for a crime that someone else has committed but you are holding the Bitcoin that is associated with it?

If this is the case , how can we consider at this point , BTC as a store of value?

It's like both of us holding 1KG bar of gold , but mine is worth less than yours but the market agrees to buy BTC at a certain price...

If this is the also the case , doesn't that mean that the demand for virgin Bitcoins more valuable than the other BTC out in circulation and thus , the circulating supply should be different...? How much crime has been associated with the circulating BTC in circulation? and if the "legal" Bitcoin that has been circulated are the only ones that are valuable , then how much would BTC be actually worth?

Is there a metric that determines if a crime has been committed with the association of each Bitcoin in circulation? Could that be a good idea for a new metric?



If some bitcoin is not equal to others, please direct me to where I can purchase those cheaper bitcoin that are less equal at the discounted rate.
Like in the real world with fiat money, if a crime is committed wtih bitcoin, while YOU are in control of it, then you can be held responsible. If a crime is committed with some bitcoin before you get it, then that has nothing to do with you.

There is a demand for virgin bitcoin, and you can pay a miner a premium to buy a complete block reward / new bitcoin, directly from them. Even Bobby Lee used to do this on the shop of BTCC exchange when he used to work there, where you could buy gold coins or bars loaded with virgin coins if I remember correctly. This is mainly for collectors though, its something people do because they dont want to be associated with any past transactions.

There is no legal or illegal bitcoin, there is just bitcoin, and they are all treated the same by wallets and nodes.

There are some companies that track bitcoin transactions where crime has been committed. They can publish information about these specific coins so that exchanges and law enforcement can track and associate an ID on an exchange with bitcoin. If there is a crime using bitcoin, and then that bitcoin is sent directly to an exchange where an ID is associated, or an address associated to an ID, then possibly it can be used as proof that you are involved in the crime. If that bitcoin is later used elsewhere, it does not mean any other users are associated with that crime.

The Silk Road marketplace had bitcoin that was confiscated by law enforcement, so was used in crime. That bitcoin was auctioned off, and is back in the bitcoin ecosystem, being used by people...that is a perfect way to see that even bitcoin that has been involved in a crime before, can be used again without any problems, and is treated equally to other bitcoin.










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December 25, 2019, 05:38:06 AM
 #28

Well, you do have a good point man:D that’s why you should worry about who you’re receiving Bitcoin from, but because you received it doesn’t really make you a victim. There are lots of things one should worry about when they are making use of cryptocurrency, but I have never seen anyone have this kind of issue, so you should not worry much about it.

Everyone that has committed a crime using cryptocurrency paid the price for it, I never read or heard a story that someone else suffered the consequences of another’s crime. This is one of the reasons why a lot of people want regulation and all that, but we all know that that’s not really how Bitcoin is meant to be, it’s meant to give people freedom to do whatever they like, whether good or, and sadly, bad Sad.

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