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Author Topic: Opinion on "bitcoin, XRP and crypto in general are scams"  (Read 363 times)
farcemajeur (OP)
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January 11, 2020, 02:24:18 PM
Last edit: January 15, 2020, 10:49:50 PM by farcemajeur
 #1

Hi All,

I know, hundreds of posts like these have probably been written throughout crypto’s relatively short history: crypto is a fraud, a ponzi, etc.

I wasn't sure where to put this, but I ‘d very much like to hear your opinions on my particular take on this matter. So Here it goes:

Seeing how much the physical metals market has been and continues to be manipulated, the trillions of dollars conjured up by the fed the prop up the stock market, …
and really, how the story of modern man has always been one characterised by an elite fleecing the proles at every step; doing everything they can to make sure
they never get the chance to really build and safeguard capital for the long term, I wonder how the cryptomarket fits into to this story.

At least to me, this notion that for the most part, the enormous run-up in prices until the last bubble popped, has been purely speculative, makes much sense to me.
A bubble driven by the idea that there’s always a sucker somwhere down the line willing to buy a stash of coins preferably at much higher prices. I mean, was it really
a question of user cases? Perhaps for BTC to some extent yes, with a few revolutionary minds thinking it will provide them a way of definitively escaping fiat,
and the games central banks play. For the great majority however, it was and continues to be about hoping history repeats itself, in short, about an easy way to riches,
about greed.

Thinking of this little history, this reality I outlined here. It would make perfect sense for the FED to print a few billion dollars at no cost, and then use it to drive up
the market by proxy, merely creating one more elaborate scheme to fleece the people. The few who got in early and took profits and got rich, well, I guess it is not
that troublesome a thought to TPTB.

Anyway, I wonder where the money is going to come from this time around? Institutional investors? And with the world’s dwindling middle-class
(please see Chris Hamilton’s blog - https://econimica.blogspot.com/2019/07/how-this-plays-out-deceleration_39.html) subjected to ever more forms of financial repression,
are there really that much people left willing to prop up this highly uncertain and volatile market with their hard earned cash? Then there are the one’s I hear of that
bought in the green, near the top of some movement, only to get burned badly, shortly after. Do you think people like these - often still possesing enough capital to
frivolously spend, will instead buy in when there’s fear in the market, when they should? No, I don’t think so. They got burned and are staying away for good.

Ofc, it might turn out to be the classic Wall Street chart. Hopefully we’ll see the disbelief phase soon, as a new bull market emerges. But I have my doubts.
The manipulators of this market can keep this thing going for a long time, each time just draining away funds, giving hope and a bit of relief from time to time.

One of the things that still keeps me in, is the knowledge that as easy as it is for “them” to drain this market, they can pump it up in the same manner.
Again, is it that implausible for certain parties buying and selling crypto with fiat provided by the FED? The money for these investors is free basically, just like it was
for Blackrock or Blackstone buying tens of thousands of homes with FED money
https://wallstreetexaminer.com/2015/11/stench-freddie-mac-back-18-billion-crony-capitalist-thievery/
Am I wrong in thinking that if they want to, they can just keep on pounding this market into oblivion? They don’t need it to succeed or even have a return,
they need to see it fail, and for the time being, have it draw in as much capital and savings as possible, until a nice reset, with a date of their choosing. Until then
everyone keeps on buying the “dips”, and the suckers do it in reverse ofc.

They say the market is there to inflict as much pain as possible. Likewise I can also see a scenario play out, where they do pump it up again, but slowly at first,
so those of a cautious nature, decide to just play it safe, and be content with a little profit, only for TPTB to then pump it up to new ATH’s. The story repeats itself,
people buy in higher, their stash now smaller, and then the market turns again. But yeah, this sort of contradicts my story perhaps. But then what, after that?
Rinse and repear, one boom and bust, parabolic rally after the other?

Perhaps, if the FED just keeps on printing and the stock market continues hitting ATH’s, then maybe some of this money will splash into the cryptomarket,
but then there’s the political aspect to this money printing, hence we get articles like
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-05/blain-central-banks-will-keep-easing-until-parliaments-and-palaces-burn

As far as XRP is concerned, because it is sometimes mentioned in regards to a coming liquidity crisis, and how XRP would be used to solve that. I just cannot see
how any of the major banks will pay the small timers out there, holding Xk of XRP, a few or even tens of dollars or whatever per XRP. It would be such a break
of this age old dynamic. This time the powerful somehow bowing to the weak. For once being in a position of subservience, of dependency. With J.P. Morgan or
Goldman Sachs paying the little guy to please part with his XRP so they can use it. I just cannot see this scenario play out.

This crypto history somehow also reminds me of the classic private business MO: governments and the taxpayer providing the funds for projects
(universities, laboratories) which then down the road, get bought up by private business. So the cost of development is on our dime, and the rewards, the profits
are syphoned off to a nice tax haven.

Crypto feels a bit like that to me. Suckers funding it all, only for the big players to come afterwards (with a mature product) and buy it out or use the developed
tech and stamp their name on it. If it succeeds and end up into something useful, great, if it turns out to be a dead-end, but somehow good lessons were learned,
to improve on a next iteration, all is good. Isn’t this how things work often.

As Michael Parenti once wrote:

Quote
They are not going to leave any little bit for you. There’s only one thing that the ruling circles throughout history have ever wanted-all the wealth, the treasures,
and the profitable returns; all the choice lands and forests and game and herds and harvests and mineral deposits and precious metals of the earth; all the productive
facilities and gainful inventiveness and technologies; all the control positions of the state and other major institutions; all public supports and subsidies, privileges
and immunities; all the protections of the law and none of its constraints; all of the services and comforts and luxuries and advantages of civil society with none of
the taxes and none of the costs. Every ruling class in history has wanted only this-all the rewards and none of the burdens.

I know, reality is often far more complex and ambiguous, nor is it captured in lineair, deterministic thinking, of which I’m guilty here perhaps.

Some of you may be familiar with the writing of a certain J.C. Collins and his blog philosophyofmetrics. First it was the introduction/widespread adoption of the SDR
that would fundamentally change the economy, then Collins started writing about crypto’s, and XRP in particular, replacing the SDR. With central banks having enabled
the industrial revolution; this time around the crypto market would replace central banking to provide the world with the liquidity it needs to spur the new economics,
and the enormous technological progress that is upon us. Something along those lines. About a year ago, he wrote how central banks would soon start to add crypto’s
to their balance sheets, and how the crypto market would swallow the PMs market, etc. https://philosophyofmetrics.com/crypto-market-will-swallow-gold-market-in-2019/.
Yet here we are now.

Who knows, instead of a fortress world, or barbarization scenario, utopia (The Great Transition - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Transition -
https://greattransition.org/documents/Great_Transition.pdf) might really be around the corner, and we’ll see the advent of the third industrial revolution,
the internet of things, the sharing economy, where trust is currency, the demonetization of all essentials as Peter Diamandis writes, and “radical abundance.” All in all,
a more humane system where, for example Collins writes at one point: The onset of robotics and AI technologies will further release man from the long hours of labor.
This will fundamentally alter the existing relationship between capital and labor. Capitalism and Communism, the diametric manifestations of capital and labor, will
consolidate around a new form of socialism which is meant to accommodate the expansion of man’s creative and spiritual “sovereignty”.
-
https://philosophyofmetrics.com/new-age-socialism-and-the-end-of-debt-based-money-creation-freepom/

I have my doubts though, more inclined to believe that it will be just more of the same and maybe a lot worse before it gets better. But what do I know.
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January 13, 2020, 09:39:49 AM
 #2

My Opinion?
The whole thesis is worthless.

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January 14, 2020, 12:12:43 PM
 #3

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the game while it lasts.

At the end of the day, what they call scams will become the leading currencies.

That is unstoppable.

 
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January 15, 2020, 01:55:42 PM
 #4

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the game while it lasts.

At the end of the day, what they call scams will become the leading currencies.

That is unstoppable.
And they do end up regretting and telling to their self that they should have considered it earlier. I havent finished on reading up on whats on op yet these kind pf sentiments and opinions arent really worth to read.

R


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farcemajeur (OP)
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January 15, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
 #5

Well, a refutation of some of the points I was trying to make would be nice, but maybe my "worthless thesis" (or Collins' or Hamilton's)
isn't worth it. These were just honest concerns, thoughts about what's going on, what will transpire ... (perhaps an exercise in futulity
given the complexity involved) but yeah I know, hundreds of posts like these probably. So I get it.
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January 15, 2020, 07:27:48 PM
 #6

Bitcoin, XRP and Crypto?

Do you mean Bitcoin and Shitcoins?

It is a common thought when something is profitable, we call it legit and once it made us desperate, we call it scam.

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January 16, 2020, 04:29:01 AM
 #7

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the game while it lasts.

At the end of the day, what they call scams will become the leading currencies.

That is unstoppable.
And they do end up regretting and telling to their self that they should have considered it earlier. I havent finished on reading up on whats on op yet these kind pf sentiments and opinions arent really worth to read.

I did not finish reading the OP myself. It is too long and with a subject like that, I don't think the claims will be much different than what is already hastily assumed in the title.

If I were you, OP, I will try buying some of the coins you consider scams. You are not yet too late on this. Believe me and don't end up like the bitter Peter Schiff, blabbing everywhere partly out of bitterness because he was not able to ride the train earlier.

 
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January 16, 2020, 07:41:44 AM
 #8

Bitcoin, XRP and Crypto?

Do you mean Bitcoin and Shitcoins?

lol not . he means btc , xrp also  known all as a cryptocurrency   . there are bitcoin and there are altcoins , some are shitcoins too   . xrp is likely the one that call people a shitcoin but btc obviously not   .

Quote
It is a common thought when something is profitable, we call it legit and once it made us desperate, we call it scam.
yeah  . its classic  , thats who we are   . but there are coins that people dont try to invest with but they already made a conclusion and call it scam    . if thats what they believe why not ?  let them  . let them also regret and get more pissed off when they see that crypto is soaring high and became sucesful at the end  .
farcemajeur (OP)
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January 16, 2020, 08:36:03 AM
 #9

I've been invested in crypto for about four years, with an amount I'm comfortable with, occasionaly buying more, mostly top ten/twenty coins
by marketcap. And I'm not desperate. Certain trends might make me think, doubt, reconsider things sometimes, yes. And If I'd lose what I've invested up till now,
ofc it would hurt, but I would be able to accept that and move on. Not that I think it will come to that. I'm just holding for the long term.

The only thing I was trying to find some answers to, some opinions, is how immune crypto is to the machinations of those in power, those controlling the
printing presses. To what extent will they be able to somehow co-opt the crypto space so that it increasinlgy works for them, to their benefit, as has
often been the case throughout history. This ties into a wider observation about technology and progress. Almost always the element of power is left out of the
equation. What gets allowed, what get co-opted, redirected from its original purpose, to serve the interests of the few.

I hope crypto is an answer to many problems, economic and social, but looking at what is happening, I have my doubts sometimes, that is all.

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January 16, 2020, 10:05:53 AM
Last edit: January 16, 2020, 06:51:14 PM by mr.relax
 #10

Real decentral cryptos are immune to anyone, excepts the developpers and the miners.
But the miners dont have fun to manipulate, as its crazy expensive and they would undermine their business.
Actually on BTC the mining power is too high to manipulate it by anyone outsider.
 Only huge miningpools or manufactorers of mininghardware can eventually do that.
Even the NSA does not hold that amount of hashpower...
Yes, smaller coins with less hashpower are possible to manipulate and thats the reason why they are not as safe for storing big values as Btc is.
But g.e. if the bitcoincore team would change the rules, the miners and users would maybe not follow, if they disagree and a fork would happen.
So the old blockchain and rules can exist further.
Actually this happenes all the time. Everyone can do a fork. But probably nobody would follow, so the forked coin is worthless most of cases.
Thats a kind of democracy in the cryptoworld.

Bitcoin is a trustless system, so nobody can invade. Its a trust only in math, not in goverments or companies.
Goverments can only regulate the companies that exchange to/from Fiat, as they do now.
Still theres the possibility to trade unregulated like P2P.
Sure Goverments can forbid the use, but they cannot control it.
If the nations could invade, they would have done since a long time as they all hate BTC.
Cryptos are INDEPENDENT and uncontrollable.

This real cryptos are very different to many new cryptocurrencies, especially if they are not decentralized, like bnb.
Here the issuer can burn or create coins, and by inflating/deflating they can control the supply and indirect the value.
Even if i dont call bnb a scam, i dont call it a real cryptocurrency.

Also heavily premined coins like xrp are mainly under control of the issuer.
As far as I know, the creators of xrp still hold the majority of all xrp...

Some token like USDT can be called a scam as they promise to have a value, where the escrowed amount of fiat that should guaranty the value does not exist. Its only backed maybe 75%.
Here a company promises a value. You have to trust a company-and they DO manipulate. This is against the spirit of Bitcoin.
Anyway, USDT is not a cryptocurrency but a token, because it has no own blockchain, it depends on several underlying cryptocurrencies like ETH and TRX.



Just only because a currency would be controlled by goverment or central notebanks , it is not necessarily a scam.
Fiat is no scam, but it is 100% controlled by central banks.
A scam is if someone changes the rules on a trade.
That means he sells you a car but delivers nothing or a bicycle.
In Crypto in general, there is no given value. The value is rated by the market, that means the users.


So in general, cryptos are not scams or pyramid-games.

I suggest you read the white paper of bitcoin.
BTC is not only the  inventor of blockchain but also a philosophy of giving back the power of payments to the users, without need or influence of nations, banks or companies.

Trade across blockchains DECENTRAL : https://cutt.ly/rOSoDl
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January 16, 2020, 01:41:29 PM
 #11

lol not . he means btc , xrp also  known all as a cryptocurrency   . there are bitcoin and there are altcoins , some are shitcoins too   . xrp is likely the one that call people a shitcoin but btc obviously not   .

I believe I didn't say Bitcoin is a shitcoin.

let them also regret and get more pissed off when they see that crypto is soaring high and became sucesful at the end  .

I think, they won't regret it cause they might already thought it is a scam, so when crypto went up, they will call it bubble or other bad thing. I don't care shitcoin goes up high anyway, they aren't good long-term investment for me, not even a good thing to invest though.

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January 16, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
 #12


Ofc, it might turn out to be the classic Wall Street chart. Hopefully we’ll see the disbelief phase soon, as a new bull market emerges. But I have my doubts.
The manipulators of this market can keep this thing going for a long time, each time just draining away funds, giving hope and a bit of relief from time to time.

One of the things that still keeps me in, is the knowledge that as easy as it is for “them” to drain this market, they can pump it up in the same manner.

I think it's common for a market to be played with. Whales are just playing around the market and making their own profit in it and it's not bad in my own opinion, I see it as a normal thing that a person with a lot of stakes will do.

There are many ways to move around with the whales, Trying to surf with their thing, Most of us traders want to be a whale someday and it is making us push through these kinds of things, We learn and we apply the things that we experience from the whales surfing around the market.

This crypto history somehow also reminds me of the classic private business MO: governments and the taxpayer providing the funds for projects
(universities, laboratories) which then down the road, get bought up by private business. So the cost of development is on our dime, and the rewards, the profits
are syphoned off to a nice tax haven.
It's not comparable to the bitcoin market I guess, The example comparison you gave is not the same to the bitcoin market but it is a near example to the starting altcoins that ran of the money of the investors. Investments managers now a day finds away in order for an investor to trust them due to past investment ran aways, These makes investment safer than before to regain the trust of the investors before.

The main thing about this is to just surf the waves, We go in this forum because we trust crypto and we believe in it.
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January 16, 2020, 03:14:23 PM
 #13

Bitcoin, XRP and Crypto?

Do you mean Bitcoin and Shitcoins?

It is a common thought when something is profitable, we call it legit and once it made us desperate, we call it scam.
Even I did not take the efforts to finish reading entire OP only because of what the subject stated. Bitcoins, XRP and cryptos in general are scam? What would actually that mean? Is OP trying to compare Bitcoins, XRP, to all other ponzi coins launched in the markets? Or is OP considering entire crypos as scam? That might be because he/she might not have made any profits out of the cryptos only because of lack of knowledge and it might be something which might scare OP from investing into such coins and hence he/she might directly consider them as scam.

This might be the case with most of the investors who really can't afford to spend their time in gaining immense knowledge about the crypto investments and it might make their faith lack in those coins.
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January 16, 2020, 04:01:40 PM
 #14

@mr. relax, abel1337,

Thank you both for your insightful answers. I have much to learn.
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January 16, 2020, 07:10:30 PM
 #15

Even I did not take the efforts to finish reading entire OP only because of what the subject stated. Bitcoins, XRP and cryptos in general are scam? What would actually that mean? Is OP trying to compare Bitcoins, XRP, to all other ponzi coins launched in the markets? Or is OP considering entire crypos as scam? That might be because he/she might not have made any profits out of the cryptos only because of lack of knowledge and it might be something which might scare OP from investing into such coins and hence he/she might directly consider them as scam.

This might be the case with most of the investors who really can't afford to spend their time in gaining immense knowledge about the crypto investments and it might make their faith lack in those coins.

If you aren't willing to take some time to read whole thing, how would you understand OP post? Don't be silly by asking questions where the answer is on the starting post. You just made yourself like a lazy signature spammer.

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January 17, 2020, 06:51:20 AM
 #16

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the game while it lasts.

At the end of the day, what they call scams will become the leading currencies.

That is unstoppable.
These kind of threads might actually be demotivating for the community and especially for all those who have newly started investing into the cryptocurrency markets. Peoples have an greedy nature and if they do not find any profits in any of the commodity than they might consider it as a scam.

Peoples have made excess money by investing into the cryptocurrency markets but yet the number of peoples who have been ended up themselves in looses are greater so those peoples might not consider investing into the cryptocurrency markets profitable for themselves. I have seen a number of peoples who are not much related to the cryptocurrency markets but yet they do consider those markets as scam.
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January 27, 2020, 06:39:17 PM
 #17

Actually, Bitcoin is incomparable to be honest. It is sure that Ripple is precious despite XRP's price is pretty low but the most important characteristic is the value of market cap, as I know Ripple has more 10 Billion dollars , that's matter. You can earn a significant amount of money when you invest in XRP but in a long term.  Being patient is absolutely essential especially when you buy/Invest/Hold a  value of crypto currencies that have weak prices.
Don't focus on the shitty coins or tokens, the market is full of them.
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January 31, 2020, 10:51:58 PM
 #18

Another so called analisys that is worthless.
It's funny how everything is perfect when the price is high, people have no doubts and they are satisfied. Once they lose the patience waiting for the price to become huge and they become rich people over night they start to doubt and to call Bitcoin and crypto a scam. Nothing unusual, we see such scenarios all the time. I.just don't know why people pay attention to it.

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April 11, 2020, 08:15:53 AM
 #19

Crypto is a tool that can be used for good or worse, and this includes major cryptos like BTC. BTC in itself isn't a scam, but the whales that manipulate market one way or another can be thought of as a bit scammy, making millions from clueless "investors".

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April 11, 2020, 08:22:42 AM
 #20

As for where the money should come? Institutional maybe and of course retail investors.

As for bitcoin and XRP and crypto in general to be scams? It's been debated, you could even call it a ponzi scheme. However, crypto remains to be that will polarised everything specially in the financial markets. This post was written prior to the pandemic, but we have seen how crypto recovers while the rest of the traditional market are getting hit hard. So did crypto became a safe haven? We can have all day debating on it, but one thing is for sure, the whole narrative has change in favour of bitcoin and crypto in general.
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