[Doubt the possibility of a scam] BestChange Bounty and Signature Campaign.

[johhnyUA]

~✓✓~

johhnyUA, what you say is not in doubt.

c:

I assumed something like that.

So, you want to say that most of reviews about them are just mainly from their affiliate program users? I doubt about it. They are in business for 13 years and if it would be shady service, internet would be fool of negative reviews about it and faucet wouldn't change anything in general. If you open other forums, review websites, you'll see mainly positive comments from people who actually using this service. But probably you chose to see what do you want to see...

The logical problem, is that bestchange is not company with some product or service where owners put their "skin in the game" (term invented by Nassim Taleb). It's just an aggregator of exchange services, like the last two pages in provincial weekly journal. They don't carry any risk, so they in fact, don't have any "reputation" in meaning that is not proper to use term reputation about such services. You will never said something like "Oh, it a well reputable two last pages, they printed different ads for so long!"

Also, YOSHIE had showed proofs that bestchange can add scammy exchanger to their list (proof that they don't check what they're adding)

Sums it up to $3525, around BTC0.42 at its current price and this is for the signature campaign alone. So, a big potential scam is underway to get a lot of 'free advertising' here with no reputed name adjoined. I guess the reason behind is the greed of each user who enrolled themselves in the project without any trustworthy user being behind this project. Let the time come, if they pay, it's for their own good and if not, well that's surely like hammering a rod on your head for the users enrolled with them. The reason here looks the pay rates which are probably higher than some campaigns here and the lack of new signature campaigns has given rise to these newcoming people being trusted without complete research about them and their project. For some of you asking to wait for a week, what will happen if this project comes out to be a scam with the owner not paying anything after a week? Are enrolled users ready to take red tags and flags for advertising it?

Shit, this is so glorious, that i have given even one merit to you for this text. This  is weird, funny, pathetic, cringe. And all at the same time!

[1714288655]

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[JollyGood]

I saw the signature campaign and i was amazed at the number of people who applied and are willing to join the campaign even without doing a little background checks and ensuring the funds are in escrow.

From a personal perspective, the campaign looks so shady and too good to believe especially the social media bounty bit. I have a feeling things may not end well.

Going by gut feeling after looking at things briefly, I think I am inclined to agree with you

Hi YOSHIE,

We are a legitimate business running since 2007 and would certainly not risk our reputation by tricking forum users into our campaign and not paying them.

Also, as for the two situations you are citing, as a business which is an intermediary between clients and exchangers, we always strive to resolve any issues the clients may have (although this is a rare case since we check all the exchangers before adding them to our website). In the first situation, we asked the user to contact us and so no feedback from him in the thread. The second situation was resolved.

We hope that you will kindly remove your Negative trust once you see the first payouts.

Your statement does not exactly give confidence. Allow me to elaborate. First of all you did not reply to this post before you locked your thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5217201.msg53596958#msg53596958

@OP

Please could you clarify who the owners of your BestChange website actually are?

The terms and condition listed on your website are virtually useless and worthless because they contain nothing can identify and/or locate the owners business in the event any user wants to take them to Court.

Thank you


Second, from what I can see you have not made any post stating why you are not using an escrow. Yes it seems you have unsurprisingly sent PMs to those that support your signature campaign but there is no announcement from your side where we all can read it and conclude from it what we interpret.

Third, you have no history here whatsoever therefore your alleged good reputation is not enough to suppress suspicion towards you therefore the wise move would have been to browse the forum, open a thread asking for potential campaign managers or escrows to come forward and invite users from the forum to give their opinions about suitability, integrity and honesty of those that offered their services to you but since you avoided all that it stands to reason there are those that have their doubts.

Fourth, you have allowed users in this thread to argue/debate over the best course of action yet you have only momentarily popped in here to post about your business with addressing the escrow question. Had you once entered the debate to try to settle things down and to address those presenting both sides of the argument then you probably would have gained some respect in the eyes of more community members but because you sat on the sidelines eating your metaphorical popcorn watching the show here with you only selectively sending PMs to those that (for reasons I fail to understand even after reading the thread) support you, I can safely deduce on that basis alone you are not trustworthy.

I have left appropriate feedback for you and in direct opposition to your request, I will probably not remove it even if there are no allegations of scamming against you with regards to payouts of any signature campaign and at most I might have to modify my feedback emphasising how you watched the thread silently as users debated you and your tactics, how and why you sent PMs to those that supported you and how you decided not to engage on a wider front with those that had bigger concerns about you just because it suited your agenda - therefore you are not trustworthy in my opinion.

Why should they pay someone when they have in-house staff to be in charge of it?

Because I don't trust their in-house staff, I don't trust their house, I don't trust their staff, and I don't care about them. I don't want to trust them, I don't want to care about them, and I don't give a shit about them. I just want my money trusting the fewer people as possible. I know I need to trust someone, so I prefer to trust a trusted escrow than to trust an unknown exchange. This is how things works here.

Well that sounds just about right. Add on to your reasons I would go further and say that their tactics in promoting their business and their technique of not participating in the thread while users engage in (sometimes heated) debate about them, it shows a cowardly petty conduct on their part - therefore they should not be trusted.

They refused to use escrow so they are untrustworthy. There is no two ways about it, why should we trust them and let them have the opportunity to not pay? What on earth gives them immediate credibility here?

Nothing at all wrong with us requesting they use escrow, more importantly why are they not willing to use escrow?

15 * $90 = $1350
15 * $70 = $1050
15 * $45 = $675
15 * $30 = $450

Sums it up to $3525, around BTC0.42 at its current price and this is for the signature campaign alone. So, a big potential scam is underway to get a lot of 'free advertising' here with no reputed name adjoined. I guess the reason behind is the greed of each user who enrolled themselves in the project without any trustworthy user being behind this project. Let the time come, if they pay, it's for their own good and if not, well that's surely like hammering a rod on your head for the users enrolled with them. The reason here looks the pay rates which are probably higher than some campaigns here and the lack of new signature campaigns has given rise to these newcoming people being trusted without complete research about them and their project. For some of you asking to wait for a week, what will happen if this project comes out to be a scam with the owner not paying anything after a week? Are enrolled users ready to take red tags and flags for advertising it?

It seems the way the bounty thread racked up pages upon pages gave confidence to the bestchange team to stick to their non-escrow decision. The potential scam might turn in to a real scam, maybe it will maybe it will not. Maybe there will be payments made for the first week or first few weeks then there will be nothing, anything is possible.

What cannot be ignored is that at the root of all this mess is the fact that had they used an escrow then none of this would have happened. When looking at the situation from their perspective they see plenty of desperate users wanting to display the signature at the thought earning good rates, that air of desperation on part of users has given some extra control in the hands of bestchange and it seems they will not change their mind towards using an escrow so we will all wait and watch as things unfold.

Maybe as a result of this forum some users will start using bestchange, then maybe some will send off their crypto for a crypto-swap only for a Bituary type of scam exchange to steal their funds or another exchange stealing funds under the guise of KYC - what then? This bestchange seems to have made no real announcement about what they intend to do to intervene in such events, their rules/terms page is not exactly one of the better ones: https://www.bestchange.com/wiki/terms.html

[1miau]

For some of you asking to wait for a week, what will happen if this project comes out to be a scam with the owner not paying anything after a week? Are enrolled users ready to take red tags and flags for advertising it?

Well, some arguments are a little bit far-fetched here...
Why should anyone being tagged when the campaign doesn't pay? Is it new rule? We have seen so many altcoin scams that turned out to be outright scams after ICO was closed, rekt slowly or simply didn't pay, forced users to submit KYC after the bounty was finished and some more shady stuff where the participants suffered and did work without reward. Should we give every participant in their bounty red trust now? - of course not.

Regarding BestChange:

Using Escrow would be the best solution but I can also understand the team. As a big company I would also do it like that. We can't force someone to do xy, they are paying, they are making the rules. We can ask them to do escrow but without valid reasons I wouldn't tag them. Imagine that you have no malicious intention, are new to a forum willing to cooperate and launch a signature campaign there and you are immediately marked as untrustworthy. While I think protecting users is essential, a "preventive" negative feedback isn't useful in that case neither to be fair when there's no proof nor to attract other legit projects doing business here. It's different when Newbies and businesses without any history launch a campaign without escrow, it's clearly looking fishy and we have a proof. No proof = no tag.  

If we give out red tags like here for BestChange we have to give out red tags:

- To all shitcoin bounties because
   a) they almost never use escrow and are running several months somtimes where users can get scammed for so much more time they invested. BestChange pays after one week and everyone can see if it's scam or not
   b) we don't know what will happen to the shitcoin project after coins are paid
- To all new signature campaigns paying the rewards to gambling sites etc. (there's also no escrow)
- To all cases where we have no valid proof and there's a chance of being scammed (new exchange, new mixer etc.)

tl;dr
I would like if they use escrow but I can't force it. Using no escrow does not necessarily mean someone is untrustworthy until there's a valid reason. So I can't give them red trust.

And please: be nice to each other! Accusing someone because their point of view is different is not nice.

Just my 2 sats  

[Best_Change]

Additional evidence;







For that we will see later, the development of his campaign.

Dear YOSHIE,

Regarding the “evidence”/”proof” you are providing.

The reviews on your screenshot are not about our business, but about an exchanger that used to be listed on our website.

We thoroughly check all the exchangers before listing them on our website but it cannot give 100% guarantee that things will not go wrong in the future. We help the users of our monitor solve any problems with exchangers if these happen and switch off exchangers if major issues arise. Our main mission is to make money exchanging as safe as possible.

Also, regarding this particular exchanger. As everyone can see, it is no longer active on our monitor, the last reviews are dated 2017.
But most importantly, if you open the threads of the reviews, you can see that all the issues were resolved or the users made the mistake themselves! Everyone can see for themselves:

https://www.bestchange.com/e-currencytrade-exchanger.html

There is no need to spread misinformation.

[Best_Change]

Hello everyone!

We are surprised and very saddened to see people actively giving us negative feedback and reducing our trust level, although we haven’t deceived anyone.

Regarding accusations that we do not participate in this topic’s discussion. It is not correct. We have already stated our opinion in this topic.

Earlier we wrote that we are not going to deceive anyone and hope that the negative feedback woul be removed after payouts. What else can we add? We don’t see any point in useless discussions. Useless because nobody seems to listen to even strong reasoning in our favor that some users provided. We have a business to run and unfortunately we do not have time to sit in this topic 24/7 and try convincing users who do not want to change their opinion. We see that our words will not dissuade those who think we are fraudsters. That is why we want to change your opinion by our actions, but it will take some time. Please wait for a week and you will get answers when we will make payouts.

We do hope though that the negative feedback will be removed after you see that we do pay and are not going to scam anyone.

Yes, we did not use escrow. But this is our right. We do not have to do it. There are no rules on this forum stating that we have to use escrow.

Regarding replying to PMs of our supporters in this topic. We mainly reply to PMs about our signature and bounty campaigns. Also, we reply to PMs about changing BTC-addresses, because some users sent us Bech32-addresss. Unfortunately we cannot make payments to Bech-32 addresses. We asked to send us a legacy-address or a P2SH-address. Do you think we would do that if we wouldn’t want to pay? What difference does it make, to which address NOT to pay, to Bech32-addresses or legacy-addresses?

Some users wrote to us in PMs that they had supported us in this topic to which of course we replied and thanked them. And that’s that.

To mention this topic’s discussion, we would like to thank Royse777, yahoo62278, webtricks, efialtis, 1miau, Bitcoin_Arena and LTU_btc for what we think is a reasonable and well-balanced position.

[AB de Royse777]

YOSHIE, let's keep the debate of if they will pay or not for a moment but let's talk about your understanding of the business model they have. I am not sure where you from, how experienced you are in online world or if you ever really had this knowledge of stand alone e-commerce and marketplace type of business model.

The way you are progressing with your arguments here, it seems to me that you really do not know what you are talking about but trying to prove that you got everything to rise an accusations. You are actually embarrassing yourself here.

Have you heard of
1. Amazon, eBay, AliBaba, Ali express? (Of course you do unless you are newly civilized from aboriginal tribes or from amazon jungle)
Please explain their business model.

2. Have you heard of next, Binance or River Island?
Please explain who take the credits of a sell in these platforms.

Do you even know why I categories these brands? Someone with a basic understanding will already got the idea of what I am trying to point here. Question is, can you?

Additional evidence;
https://zizihub.com/a140.jpg
https://zizihub.com/e03d.jpg
https://zizihub.com/f003.jpg
https://zizihub.com/d2a6.jpg
https://zizihub.com/de3f.jpg

Quoted without img tag of some of the mages for reference to show the stupidity came from you after I know your understanding of the questions I have asked above.
Full archive: https://archive.is/ldV9i#selection-4084.1-4093.79

[YOSHIE]

https://www.bestchange.com/e-currencytrade-exchanger.html

There is no need to spread misinformation.

I do not mean you do not pay your current campaign participants. I am fed up with fake sites, scams and complaints from participants, past and present sites are up to you, your right to defend yourself, I'm speaking facts.

I am not spreading false information, I am speaking based on available evidence, do you not see it on the first page and in the referece.

You are very new to this forum by implementing the highest budget campaign without using escrow, I don't believe, you want to pay the first week for all participants, that's good, we'll see, hopefully it's true.

On your site, you use this address: 1BestcHaNGExXQ5ZHoY1iTtNEoey8BF1kk
And I will monitor your current transactions from your current site members.



In your BTC address you save tens of dollars of people's money.

https://www.blockchain.com/id/btc/address/1BestcHaNGExXQ5ZHoY1iTtNEoey8BF1kk

https://btcsniffer.com/index.php?address=1BestcHaNGExXQ5ZHoY1iTtNEoey8BF1kk&cb=2&latest



So like I mentioned, trust is not permanent, it can be erased, if you prove to be honest with your site and also towards the campaign.

IF YOU PREVIOUSLY USE ESCROW, WHEN IMPLEMENTING THE CAMPAIGN, IT'S NOT THE PROBLEM, indeed escrow is not in the forum rules, but can take the example of a professional manager.
This all happened because you are not trusted to promote the bestchange.com site, because many people accuse and complain.

So, if you feel honest do your best and if not honest the opposite will happen.

Note:
I will erase my trust after you prove that you are not cheating and honest with your site and current campaign.

[Bitcoin_Arena]

-snip-

Completely agree with 1miau, If this is the criteria with which tags are being given out then why don't we head over to the altcoin bounty section too and tag each and every campaign that is being run and is not using any trusted escrow, because they are  "untrustworthy and we are trying to protect forum members", right?

Why don't we just tag new projects that have just been Announced in this forum, because, they have  "Zero Reputation" in here and therefore are "Suspicious and are likely to scam members"?

@Yoshie, I like the work you do  to expose scammers, cheating alts etc, in fact i also occasionally get a scam project which i do try to report but this approach is not right at all.

It's like a scenario of "Guilty until proven innocent" rather than "Innocent until proven guilty"
Yes, you may say the tags are temporary until they make payment and then they will be removed, but what you forget is that in that very first week, some damage has already be done.

If they are genuine, you will have somehow already killed their morale of running business here.

Put yourself in their shoes, you come in here to advertise your business to get some new customers then immediately, tags rain on you from all corners asking people not to trust you even when you have done nothing wrong yet.

[bakasabo]

Question to those, who tagged red user Best_Change

Do BestChange bounty campaign participants risk to be tagged red? If they don't make payment to participants, then they are tagged for reason and it turns out that participants were promoting scam.

I've made an application post to participate in social media bounty campaign before BestChange was tagged. What should I do now? Do the tasks or not? What will happen if I made weekly report ?

Because right now everything is turning into 1) do the tasks = risk of being accused of promoting scam = red tag 2) don't do the tasks = not receiving payment / possibility to be kicked from campaign.

The whole situation turns to be a "lose-lose" situation for participants...

[Yatsan]

Question to those, who tagged red user Best_Change

Do BestChange bounty campaign participants risk to be tagged red? If they don't make payment to participants, then they are tagged for reason and it turns out that participants were promoting scam.

I've made an application post to participate in social media bounty campaign before BestChange was tagged. What should I do now? Do the tasks or not? What will happen if I made weekly report ?

Because right now everything is turning into 1) do the tasks = risk of being accused of promoting scam = red tag 2) don't do the tasks = not receiving payment / possibility to be kicked from campaign.

The whole situation turns to be a "lose-lose" situation for participants...

You should do the task! Reasonable DT will not tag any participants until it is proven scam if Best change turns out to be a scam, then you should stop participating, But for now, do the task!

If that case happens, some DT started to red tag participants, many good DT will fight for those participants that are going to be red-tag. This whole thread is just an accusation and no confirmation, just do your thing.

We should wait for the first round to be ended if they are legit or scam. But for now, there's no need to worry about getting red-tag.

[hacker1001101001]

Question to those, who tagged red user Best_Change

Do BestChange bounty campaign participants risk to be tagged red? If they don't make payment to participants, then they are tagged for reason and it turns out that participants were promoting scam.

I've made an application post to participate in social media bounty campaign before BestChange was tagged. What should I do now? Do the tasks or not? What will happen if I made weekly report ?

Because right now everything is turning into 1) do the tasks = risk of being accused of promoting scam = red tag 2) don't do the tasks = not receiving payment / possibility to be kicked from campaign.

The whole situation turns to be a "lose-lose" situation for participants...

You should just do what you think is right, use your own due intelligence about it. If you think that that BestChange would pay you than why not participate ? It's your own risk.

I don't think you would be tagged for taking part in there campaign and promoting it, even if someone does it would be deemed as wrong use of trust system overall.

-snip-

Completely agree with 1miau, If this is the criteria with which tags are being given out then why don't we head over to the altcoin bounty section too and tag each and every campaign that is being run and is not using any trusted escrow, because they are  "untrustworthy and we are trying to protect forum members", right?

Exactly, there are tons of projects running campaigns on bitcointalk without any escorw, just tagging one in red would not go universal around. Although using a neutral trust would do the same effect.

[logfiles]

Question to those, who tagged red user Best_Change

Do BestChange bounty campaign participants risk to be tagged red? If they don't make payment to participants, then they are tagged for reason and it turns out that participants were promoting scam.

Nope, because AFAIK, they haven't scammed anyone or there is no legitimate scam accusation so far. A participant could only get a tag if they joined and promoted a campaign of a project is already reported to be scam.

I've made an application post to participate in social media bounty campaign before BestChange was tagged. What should I do now? Do the tasks or not? What will happen if I made weekly report ?

Go ahead do what you feel like. Just have it in mind that there is a risk of not being paid if things go South... right now people are just having doubts maybe until after week 1.

[bakasabo]

You should do the task! Reasonable DT will not tag any participants until it is proven scam if Best change turns out to be a scam, then you should stop participating, But for now, do the task!

It's your own risk.

Good ahead do what you feel like. Just have it in mind that there is a risk of not being paid if things go South... right now people are just having doubts maybe until after week 1.

I'm doing the task and I'm not afraid of not being paid. I'm more worried to be tagged because of some other person actions and decisions 

But I can not speak for every participant. That is why I've asked the question about possibility of being tagged by members, who already tagged Best_Change

[bitmover]

This thread is going in a direction which is  not interesting imo.
Everyone said what they think, now people are just "I agree" and some people may have other intentions (maybe just get a slot?)

Or just saying things which are totally off topic like "will I get tag?". Ofc no one will get tag for participation

. I suggest you close this topic Yoshie.

[YOSHIE]

I suggest you close this topic Yoshie.

yes, your suggestions are considered, temporarily closed, until there are further developments on this issue.