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Author Topic: Overcharges on Electrum?  (Read 256 times)
caltripp
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January 24, 2020, 11:46:06 PM
Merited by LoyceV (4), ETFbitcoin (1), HeRetiK (1)
 #1

Hi.  I am new to using Bitcoin.  My first transaction may be my last as it seems to me Bitcoin is a huge rip-off.  I made an error trying to pay for an item via my Bitcoin wallet on Electrum.  I have $150 USD in my balance.  I was trying to make a purchase for $60 USD using my Bitcoin wallet.  What I didn't know, and later figured out, is that my wallet was on a default unit of mBTC.  The payment was to be made in BTC.  So, they say, I only sent $.05 to the site I was trying to purchase from.  At that point, I had not figured out the unit thing or how to change it in my wallet so I cancelled the transaction.  The site that claims only $.05 was sent was happy to refund it but $8.42 USD + a $.10 USD fee was charged to my account.  I asked them about this and they said is was probably a miners fee.  Electrum claims that they charge fees relative to the amount charged and from what I found on Google, miners fees shouldn't be that high.  Can anyone tell me why I was charged $8.42 for a $.05 transaction?  Here are the details of the transaction page...

Date: 2020-01-22
Status:  199 confirmations
Amount sent:  .00100771 BTC
Fee:  00001206 BTC (3. sat/byte)
RBF:  True
LockTime:  614013
Included in block:  (address)
At block height:  614015

Inputs:
(Addressess)

Outputs:
(address):  0.00000771
(address):  0.001
(address):  0.01631023

Thank you in advance for you help!!
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January 24, 2020, 11:52:49 PM
Merited by LoyceV (4)
 #2

Bitcoin is a rip-off because you didn’t pay attention to what you were doing and made a mistake? :/

I’m not sure where they charged you $8 for « mining fees ». If the transaction which details you posted above are related to the refund transaction, they only paid 0.000012 BTC in fees ($0.10). The $8 is probably related to to a fee they decided (on their own) to charge you. And this has nothing to do with Bitcoin.

Edit: if the tx above is your payment to the website, as pointed out by BitCryptex, and you selected to create a 2FA in Electrum, you clearly accepted the disclaimer without reading, because it says they charge a fee for their 2FA co-signing services:



Is that the case?

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January 24, 2020, 11:53:40 PM
Merited by dbshck (4), LoyceV (2), HeRetiK (1)
 #3

Fee:  00001206 BTC (3. sat/byte)

As you can see, the transaction fee was only 3 sat/byte which is really low. Let's investigate further.

Outputs:
(address):  0.00000771
(address):  0.001
(address):  0.01631023

There are three outputs. The first one is the $0.05 payment, the third one is your change which was sent to one of your addresses and the second output is your missing $8.40. It looks like you have created a 2FA wallet. TrustedCoin is a service built-in Electrum. They used to charge exactly 0.001 BTC per transaction; I am not sure if it's still relevant. Do you recall creating a two factor authentication wallet? It's not mandatory. Standard wallets do not have such a fee.

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January 25, 2020, 12:22:26 AM
Merited by LoyceV (2)
 #4

Yes, I did create the 2FA thing.  I thought it was required as an additional security feature.  They don't tell you what they consider to be a "small fee"...
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January 25, 2020, 12:30:18 AM
 #5

Thank you all for the input!  It does look like it was the 2FA fee.  I think to charge a flat fee like that is ridiculous.  It should be based on the amount of the charge.  I found the page on Electrum that shows the 2FA selection and it won't let me undo it, so I guess they do require it.  Do you all suggest I set up a wallet with a different company??
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January 25, 2020, 01:55:59 AM
 #6

Thank you all for the input!  It does look like it was the 2FA fee.  I think to charge a flat fee like that is ridiculous.  It should be based on the amount of the charge.  I found the page on Electrum that shows the 2FA selection and it won't let me undo it, so I guess they do require it.  Do you all suggest I set up a wallet with a different company??

Electrum isn't a company, it's an open source client software.  You can easily create a wallet without that feature, just select "standard wallet" instead the 2FA option.  I believe you can also restore your current wallet from the seed phrase, and disable the 2FA feature.

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January 25, 2020, 02:57:02 AM
Merited by LoyceV (4), ETFbitcoin (1), DdmrDdmr (1)
 #7

I found the page on Electrum that shows the 2FA selection and it won't let me undo it, so I guess they do require it.  Do you all suggest I set up a wallet with a different company??
It isn't required.
You can undo (disable) it by restoring the seed, but creating a new standard electrum wallet and sending all of your balance to that wallet is better.

Take note that that fee includes the service payment the next 20 transactions that you will make,
means that you won't be charged for the next and consecutive transactions.

BTW, to confirm that it's 2FA fee, double-click the transaction date from the history and see if that output is highlighted in blue.

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January 25, 2020, 05:33:15 AM
 #8

Do you all suggest I set up a wallet with a different company??
If just your concern about security then I will suggest use Hardware wallet like Ledger nano. So you don't need use extra security like 2FA from third party. But it's not necessary to change wallet just for 2FA issue, it would be solved by restore your wallet with seed or just create a new wallet. Whatever your actions, just write your seed on multiple places before do something with your current wallet, or you may transfer your fund temporarily to your another wallet and erase everything related electrum. Then go with fresh installation and create standard wallet without 2FA authentication. Just be careful with your fund on current wallet.

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January 25, 2020, 05:49:41 AM
 #9

Yes, I did create the 2FA thing.  I thought it was required as an additional security feature.  They don't tell you what they consider to be a "small fee"...
For me, it is the same security level as the feature 2FA thing. Although there is a 2FA code when accessing the wallet but you can still use it if you lose your mobile phone. You can restore it back from its seed phrase and disable the 2FA. That's why I did not prefer to use 2FA Electrum wallet.

Regarding the small fee, it was a fixed fee of 0.001 BTC total or $8 at this current rate and that is a normal thing of 2FA wallet feature because they use the third party which is the TrustedCoin. You should learn how the Electrum 2FA wallet works. As suggested by @nc50lc was right, transfer your bitcoin into the standard Electrum wallet and you can modify the transaction fee even 1 sat/byte will be fine and use this Bitcoin Fee Calculator to know how much sats will cost per transaction confirm.

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January 25, 2020, 05:54:43 AM
 #10

Do you all suggest I set up a wallet with a different company??

No. Electrum is one of your best options. But you have to take some time to read, ask, understand what you do, just to avoid future surprises.
Now you know that 2FA is not necessary for local software and also that it may be better to see your funds as BTC not mBTC.

I'll add some more: keep your seed safe, maybe on a paper, for the day your computer dies.
Keep your computer safe from viruses.
Anyone who can access your seed can spend your coins from anywhere.
Always double check the recipient address (a few chr from start, middle and end).
Always install only from official place, double check and learn how to verify you install the correct Electrum.

Keep in mind that Bitcoin is money which some will try to steal from you if you let them.

When in doubt, come here and ask

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January 25, 2020, 08:19:24 AM
 #11

Your bad experience with your first Bitcoin transaction is down to you not paying attention to what you were doing.

1. Your Electrum client was displaying the balance in mbtc and not in btc. If you had opened the settings page and done a bit of research what is there you would have found the option to display the balance in BTC instead of mbtc. This is not a fault of Electrum or Bitcoin but on the user.

2. You created a 2FA wallet not knowing what it was, not researching what it was before creating one, and not reading the TOS or disclaimer that pops up. You got charged the 2FA fee. This is again your fault and has nothing to do with the Bitcoin network.

Ask questions if you are in doubt. Bitcoin isn't Paypal, once your money is sent, it's gone. There is no centralized authority to turn to for help. You need to know what you are doing before you do it.

Your bad experience has now resulted in you learning how to create a wallet properly, you will learn how to restore a wallet from seed (if you want to get rid of the 2FA option), and you now know that there is such a thing as mbtc.   

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January 25, 2020, 11:03:26 AM
 #12

1. Your Electrum client was displaying the balance in mbtc and not in btc. If you had opened the settings page and done a bit of research what is there you would have found the option to display the balance in BTC instead of mbtc. This is not a fault of Electrum or Bitcoin but on the user.

Haven't used Electrum before, but if mBTC is the default display option, that is a problem imo. I remember the big headache these smaller units gave me in the first months of using BTC. And to be honest, I still don't know years later how much is an mBTC, a Bit or whatever these other units are. I work with BTC & satoshis only and I think it's the best way not to mistake an amount for a larger sum.
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January 25, 2020, 12:01:30 PM
Last edit: January 26, 2020, 07:51:56 AM by LoyceV
 #13

Yes, I did create the 2FA thing.  I thought it was required as an additional security feature.  They don't tell you what they consider to be a "small fee"...
I must say I find it sneaky the way Electrum asks for this by default. They know most people don't read anything and just click "OK" through all installation popups.
It's been a while since I installed Electrum, and I stand corrected. See HCP's post: 2FA is not the default installation option.

I think to charge a flat fee like that is ridiculous.
For what it's worth: as far as I know the fee is paid once every 20 transactions.



Welcome to Bitcointalk! Although I regret seeing you found this forum after a bad experience, I appreciate new users who come here for information on using Bitcoin. If you stick around, you can learn a lot about Bitcoin here. And I can speak from experience when I say both Bitcoin and this forum grow on you Smiley



Haven't used Electrum before, but if mBTC is the default display option, that is a problem imo. I remember the big headache these smaller units gave me in the first months of using BTC. And to be honest, I still don't know years later how much is an mBTC
Anyone who uses the SI-system should understand milli, we use it all the time (say: ml, mm, mg). The only one that's really new is "bits".
I've preferred mBTC since I first used Bitcoin, because it's much more convenient than counting leading zeros.

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January 25, 2020, 01:58:16 PM
 #14

the 2fa fee is for 20 outgoing transactions. you only made one so far so you won't be charged again any time soon. they can't charge you every transaction because bitcoin is not suitable for micropayments.

there are different wallet types in electrum so you shouldn't have created a 2fa wallet if you didn't want one.

lots of people get caught unawares by this. electrum is too easy to use. it's encouraging noobs who don't pay attention and don't know how bitcoin works.
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January 25, 2020, 11:50:13 PM
Merited by LoyceV (4), ETFbitcoin (1)
 #15

Yes, I did create the 2FA thing.  I thought it was required as an additional security feature.  They don't tell you what they consider to be a "small fee"...
I must say I find it sneaky the way Electrum asks for this by default. They know most people don't read anything and just click "OK" through all installation popups.
By default? Huh

They don't... The "default" option is "standard wallet" -> "create a new seed"

The only way to get an Electrum 2fa wallet is to select it manually, then click past the giant "warning" dialog.

If a user doesn't take a moment to read what an application is trying to tell them, regarding a system that the user doesn't really understand... Is that the application's fault? Or the user's? Roll Eyes

People forget that "Be Your Own Bank" means "Be your own Bank's security department/IT department/research department and General Manager"

You want the freedom of cryptocurrency? You have to accept the personal responsibility that comes with it.

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January 26, 2020, 02:07:38 AM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (1)
 #16

Thank you everyone for all your helpful tips!  Yes, I realize that this was my mistake because I haven't done enough reading to really understand how Bitcoin/wallets/etc. work.  A lot of the information out there is confusing!  You all have helped make things a little more clear!

If I have more questions, issues, I will definitely be back to to learn more!  Grin

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January 27, 2020, 10:19:53 AM
 #17

Snip
I use BTC as the default option as well but mBTC is useful for smaller amounts. Lets say you want to send $1 worth of Bitcoin to someone. If you base unit is BTC you are looking at values close to 0.0001 BTC. You could make a mistake and enter one "0" more or less and get 0.00001/0.001 instead.

With mBTC it is 0.1. It is harder to make a mistake.

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tranthidung
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January 30, 2020, 08:13:51 AM
 #18

Yes, I did create the 2FA thing.  I thought it was required as an additional security feature.
Seed is the thing to protect you at the ends, not the wallet passphrase or 2FA.

You are always safe if you forget your wallet passphrase or your computer is compromised AND you still have control on your seeds.

In contrast, when you lose your seed (for standard wallet or for 2FA wallet) and the others have your seed, you will lose your money if the others intend to compromise your fund by using stolen seed.

With 2FA wallet, you own 2 out of 3 keys for your wallet, the third one is own and secured by a remote server. And when you don't want to use Trustedcoin service, you can use your seed to restore your wallet (as guided in more details here).

In the other words, the 2FA feature does not protect you if the others know your wallet's seed and your 2FA code.

When you restore your 2FA-wallet, you will have step to confirm (Keep or Disable 2FA feature).




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