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Author Topic: How is Bitcoin living up to Satoshi's original vision?  (Read 643 times)
Rickeo (OP)
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January 28, 2020, 06:31:14 PM
 #1

OK, I'm going to prepare myself for the influx of hate here but can we please attempt to have a mature discussion about this.

How in the hell can people claim Bitcoin is still in line with Satoshi's original vision?

How can we even call Bitcoin a crypto CURRENCY, it's really not a CURRENCY anymore and I'll explain why.

I sold my Bitcoin off a long while ago, mainly for the reasons I've given above, I didn't believe that Bitcoin was still in line with what Satoshi originally envisioned, I'm also sceptical about it's long term success.

I've just tried to send £1 worth of BTC to my other wallet, the fee was 25p that's literally 25% in fees.

Sure, lower the fee I hear you say but if I do, I'm going to be waiting an extremely long time for confirmations and for my transaction to go through.

I honestly fear that a lot of people are into Bitcoin from the surge of popularity, after hearing you can get rich quick or people who did get rich quick.

For a lot of early investors who invested before Bitcoin took off, back in the days when you could purchase it for less than a cup of coffee, those investors got in because they were passionate about Bitcoin, they believed in the technology and most importantly, they believe in Satoshi's original vision.

What was Satoshi's original vision?

1) A digital, decentralised currency
2) That could be sent anywhere in the world
3) For fractions of a penny / as cheap as possible
4) In a short amount of time
5) Sending microtransactions to developing countries who were run down by poverty was a big selling point at the time

Most of those things no longer ring true, honestly, it's become terribly expensive to use, it can take such a long time to confirm and as such is now a pretty shoddy currency.

It's not doing anything revolutionary and it's not shaking up the system anymore. Let's be honest 90% of people getting in now, aren't here for the tech, aren't here to create a financial revolution, they're here because they've heard Bitcoin is a good investment that can see returns that make any other conventional investment look mediocre.

People who truly think Bitcoin can displace or replace major world currencies and become a day to day globally accepted form of payment are DELUSIONAL in my eyes.

Why are people going to give up their banks and bank cards when they can:

* Tap & Go - Use Contactless - Pay instantly for free without any fees
* There are so many ways to send payment across borders now for free or cheaper than Bitcoin

Like, there is literally nothing that current forms of payments don't do better than Bitcoin, well... actually... decentralisation but that's about it, that alone wont be enough for Bitcoin to win the day.

I still believe in Blockchain and I'm passionate about how Blockchain technology can revolutionise so many different industries, that's why one of my biggest holdings is in ETH.

I also believe that there is room for Crypto to actually replace currency as we know it, there's still a need for instant, feeless, microtransactions that can be sent across the world. I don't look to Bitcoin for doing that though, projects like NANO, in my opinion, are much more in line with what Satoshi's original vision and passion was.

Obviously, my opinion doesn't matter. Bitcoin will continue to rise because of speculation, because investors don't want to miss out on any gains. People often refer to Bitcoin as being like digital 'gold' now and it really is! What does it actually do that is useful, technology wise? What is it doing that is revolutionary?

Bitcoin has the first mover advantage and I'll always be thankful that it sparked off something amazing, it paved the way for so many great projects and inspiring blockchain technologies; but Bitcoin is literally a store of value now, it's become just like gold, people use it to invest and to save but it's not used for day to day transactions and while it can and is used that way, it is incredibly inefficient compared to other competitors now.

Bitcoins price can not rise indefinitely, there is and will be a ceiling to how far the price can go, that may be $100,000 it may be a million or a billion, regardless, there is a ceiling, once that is reached, once people realise they can't 'make' any more money from Bitcoin and that as an investment it's kind of poor compared to other options, what then? There's only one direction I see it going and that's to the floor right back down with an almighty crash.

How does Bitcoin scale at those levels, the scaling issue has caused so many forks with people having difference of opinions, how do we maintain fees so that miners keep mining but users also keep using.

A lot would have to change to make Bitcoin a valid form of a digital payment system again and the community and devs maintaining Bitcoin seem to be wanting to go down the road of making it a store of value as opposed to a form of payment, not was Satoshi originally envisioned and not sustainable in my honest opinion.
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January 28, 2020, 07:14:39 PM
 #2

I believe Bitcoin is starting to deviate from Satoshi's original vision in some specific areas, but not the same areas you have concern.

How can we even call Bitcoin a crypto CURRENCY, it's really not a CURRENCY anymore and I'll explain why.

Sure, Satoshi created a currency but that's also a term for an asset that can be transacted...which is what Bitcoin is. He could never perceive how the market would use this asset and the fact that people are hodling it more than spending it is probably a testament to how bad the problem was he was trying to solve.

If he's trying to solve the inequity between the rich and the poor, then people who own bitcoin and are hodling it are doing so because it helps them resolve that inequity in wealth between the rich and the poor!

For me, Bitcoin is starting to deviate from the original vision in the following ways:
  • Mining is for the wealthy, not for everybody
  • As the cost of mining increases the currency's control becomes more centralized among fewer mining operations

In theory these concerns I list would be resolved once every coin is mined. But this is also why ideas like Pi coin are uniquely attractive as alternative ways to deliver mining to the people.
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January 28, 2020, 07:22:48 PM
 #3

I like to think that Bitcoin is not only the beginnining of cryptocurrencies, but a bridge that will leads us to a greater online currency in the future. Right now we have thousands of cryptocurrency projects, but vast majority of them are 'shitcoins' which aren't contributing to the progress of digital money. I think that Bitcoin will someday die, but I hope it'll be replaced by something greater. Satoshi's vision is something truly beautiful but it's not feasible in our world. Some pieces of it liven up but it's just the start of a long journey.
Rickeo (OP)
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January 28, 2020, 07:48:19 PM
 #4

I believe Bitcoin is starting to deviate from Satoshi's original vision in some specific areas, but not the same areas you have concern.

How can we even call Bitcoin a crypto CURRENCY, it's really not a CURRENCY anymore and I'll explain why.

Sure, Satoshi created a currency but that's also a term for an asset that can be transacted...which is what Bitcoin is. He could never perceive how the market would use this asset and the fact that people are hodling it more than spending it is probably a testament to how bad the problem was he was trying to solve.

If he's trying to solve the inequity between the rich and the poor, then people who own bitcoin and are hodling it are doing so because it helps them resolve that inequity in wealth between the rich and the poor!

For me, Bitcoin is starting to deviate from the original vision in the following ways:
  • Mining is for the wealthy, not for everybody
  • As the cost of mining increases the currency's control becomes more centralized among fewer mining operations

In theory these concerns I list would be resolved once every coin is mined. But this is also why ideas like Pi coin are uniquely attractive as alternative ways to deliver mining to the people.

Thank you for a mature reply and genuine discussion, it's much appreciated. I half expected to just got a torrent of abuse and hate for this.

I understand where you're coming from and I appreciate your view and opinion. I do think we're on different pages, I think Satoshi made it clear that super fast transactions, that could be sent across the world, at lightning speed, for incredibly cheap was what his passion about Bitcoin was about.

I remember the talk back then how it could be revolutionary for countries and how aid could be given as people could give tiny microtransactions that may not seem like much but added up and in a country where those small amounts could convert to bigger amounts, well that possibility was just inspiring and revolutionary.

I do get it, even as a store of value it still holds VALUE but I just don't think there's anything about it now that gets me fired up like it used to, when I first heard about Bitcoin, when it wasn't making huge % gains, my conversation to get people to invest was about how the technology was revolutionary, how it could totally disrupt the modern financial system. It was revolutionary.

Now, when I hear people convincing people to get some Bitcoin it's almost always followed by "I've earned X amount" or "You'll make so much money" it's literally become all about the gains and that's it. Which is sad. We'll hit a wall where that doesn't hold true anymore and then what?

I like to think that Bitcoin is not only the beginnining of cryptocurrencies, but a bridge that will leads us to a greater online currency in the future. Right now we have thousands of cryptocurrency projects, but vast majority of them are 'shitcoins' which aren't contributing to the progress of digital money. I think that Bitcoin will someday die, but I hope it'll be replaced by something greater. Satoshi's vision is something truly beautiful but it's not feasible in our world. Some pieces of it liven up but it's just the start of a long journey.

Yea, I feel exactly the same way as you to be honest.

There is a lot of crap out there but there are also some diamonds and it's just about letting time do it's things and seeing which projects will survive.

When I compare NANO to Bitcoin it's more in line with Satoshi's original vision, but the best technology doesn't always win.

LTC and BCH are out performing and are more used than NANO, that being said NANO isn't without it's flaws and there's a lot it doesn't do or isn't designed to do.

But right now it's one of the few cryptocurencies that I know where people can send a fraction of a penny without losing a single sat, super fast, feeless, microtransactions are truly that, you can send as little as you want with no fee.

Do I think NANO will win and rule the day though? No, sadly not. It has it's flaws and like I said, it has it's flaws.

Time will tell, I'm sure there are many projects yet to come that we can't even imagine that will perform so well and be just as revolutionary as Bitcoin was. Blockchain - the possibilities are endless.
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January 28, 2020, 08:19:16 PM
Merited by kingcolex (1)
 #5

The core principal is trustless permissionless decentralised money with no third party required. That's still intact.

It's one thing to envision something but when you put it into practice and try to spread it across the globe while maintaining its integrity and security that gets a little more complex and there'll likely be some casualties and compromises made.

And ultimately It doesn't matter what Satoshi's vision is. What matters is what people do with the system he created. He sent it off out into the world and this is what the rest of us have made of it.

If he'd been hell bent on keeping things to the letter he would've stuck around and I'm pretty sure people would've continued to follow him.
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January 28, 2020, 08:36:50 PM
 #6

The core principal is trustless permissionless decentralised money with no third party required. That's still intact.

It's one thing to envision something but when you put it into practice and try to spread it across the globe while maintaining its integrity and security that gets a little more complex and there'll likely be some casualties and compromises made.

And ultimately It doesn't matter what Satoshi's vision is. What matters is what people do with the system he created. He sent it off out into the world and this is what the rest of us have made of it.

If he'd been hell bent on keeping things to the letter he would've stuck around and I'm pretty sure people would've continued to follow him.

That's actually a very VALID argument, what you have said is mostly correct.

Yes, the community are the ones that decide what happens now but it doesn't mean that is a positive thing....

Bitcoin is just a store of value now, once it's hit a ceiling and investors don't get the returns they were hoping for, what then?

Once it's ceased to be a store of value and valid investment, what happens then? What does Bitcoin then become? Because it's broken as a form of peer to peer digital cash.

The stock markets work a very simple way, stocks rise and give dividends because a company continues to innovate and be profitable, those that don't die a hard death, what innovation is Bitcoin offering? What's it bringing to the table that is new or market leading now?

Like I said, it may not be in my lifetime but Bitcoin will undoubtedly die if it does not drastically adapt, right now it wont adapt in the way it needs to because the financial incentive is to keep Bitcoin expensive and as a digital asset and store of value. That can't and wont last forever.
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January 28, 2020, 08:42:43 PM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #7

Bitcoin is just a store of value now, once it's hit a ceiling and investors don't get the returns they were hoping for, what then?

Once it's ceased to be a store of value and valid investment, what happens then? What does Bitcoin then become? Because it's broken as a form of peer to peer digital cash.

People have the whole progression of this badly mixed up in my opinion.

You have to become a store of value first. Then you become a currency. You don't put your day to day financial needs into something as weedy and volatile as Bitcoin currently is. And layer two stuff may well solve the cash aspect. We'll have to see .

And once it becomes 'boring' and those returns stop exploding there's one other rather handy feature - deflation vs fiat currencies. That is eternal and what most of the world is looking for. Most people do not speculate. They want to preserve and grow their wealth, not bet it.

This is still the wildest and earliest phase. There's a lot more ground to cover. 'Cash' is the final progression, not the first.
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January 28, 2020, 08:52:03 PM
 #8

Your two main arguments seem to be that fees are high, and people are only here because of speculation.

First of all, if you paid 25% fee, then you overpaid A 1-input-2-output transaction can be made for 140 sats, which would work out at less than 1p in GBP. I make 1 sat/byte transactions pretty much daily. The longest I've waited over the last 2 weeks is an hour. Most of the time I'm waiting only a couple of blocks. Bitcoin is faster and cheaper than fiat methods. You've mentioned contactless cards - these have a huge fee associated with them, its just that the merchant eats the fee rather than the consumer, so you never see it.

I can't disagree with the point that there are plenty of people in the space who are only here to try to make some easy money. They frequently only use bitcoin as a stepping stone to buy alts, though, and often leave the space after losing out on alts as they frequently do. The people who are here long-term are still passionate about the future of bitcoin, and bitcoin's development is still going strong, with plenty of new features in development and on the horizon: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5207455.0.

You also seem to be big on shilling NANO. NANO isn't anything at all like Satoshi's original vision given that it is centralized.
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January 28, 2020, 08:52:10 PM
 #9

You know I am from India. Our constitution makers way back in 1950 made our constitution to make India Republic they dreamt of a visionary India with low corruption and no caste system due to reservations but here India is standing in front of you after 70 years facing much bigger issues of caste system and in altogether different way that our makers thought but does this mean we aren't justified?

What I want to Convey is that it hardly matters that how the creator visioned things the vision needs to be updated with time due to circumstances not prevalant at the time. No one thought that btc could become so valuable one day even if it gains so much popularity. I think it's really interesting to see that how will Crypto evolve over the upcoming years. So you could really forget about what satoshi thought of bitcoin. Satoshi might be the creator but after all he is not the owner.
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January 28, 2020, 09:59:05 PM
 #10

Bitcoin is still going through lots of phases of doubt. With only a decade of experience, any circumstance brings in a mixture of FUD and FOMO. Halving, war, pandemic, recession, elections, gold price soaring etc. Be it whatever event you wish, people still do not know what to do about Bitcoin during certain events. That shows how young this market is. Look a minute through the Bitcoin Discussion and Speculation boards and see for yourself how many are in doubt. Questions like "What happens after the third halving?", "Does BTC price follow gold's?", "Would Bitcoin rise during a pandemic?" etc are exactly what I mean. Doubt.

I think the focus is spreading out too many ways at the moment in the market. We're switching focus from Bitcoin to scams like X10, then when Bitcoin soars we're switching back to where we were before. Too many markets, too many coins, too many scams. We need a cleanup and a start-over. There's absolutely 0 utility in having a total of 3k coins & tokens with different features if they're all on different exchanges, some with close to 0 volume. These need to go away, too many have learned that cryptocurrency means joining bounties and supporting shitcoins to get rich.

BTC might be open-source and all, but that does not equal continuous revolutionary updates. I think just the fact that you can cross borders with a billion dollar in your pocket sitting inside the code written with your own hands on a piece of paper is mindblowing and revolutionary enough. Then we have the entire Blockchain structure and all. It was revolutionary enough to bring big names in the game. But it's still too early to know if BTC actually has the future Satoshi envisioned or not. We need to go through a few phases, like @gentlemand said.

I do get your point OP, and the more the price soars, the higher the fees will probably be, right? If we had a $100k price per BTC like many speculate, that turns the fees you've mentioned in the OP into +$2. That's 200% fees for a $1 transaction and remember, the higher the price is, the less a dollar is worth in BTC. So we're looking at a price of 1000sats for $1. Think about $1M/BTC and that turns your fee into a whopping $20. This is where my suggestion comes in, one that I have mentioned in a post from a few days ago: adding more digits to BTC (like ETH) so the fees would be pushed back by a few digits. I might say nonsense right now but wouldn't this be possible through a BTC update or second layer? Nobody's answered me on the other thread so I'm reviving the same idea now.
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January 29, 2020, 12:03:23 AM
 #11

At the moment and on a scale of 10 i would rate it as 4/10 because bitcoin is being used by most people as a store of value other than spending it in their daily transactions. Also, there are some factors that are also hindering the fulfillment of Satoshi's vision. Some Governments have made strict rules concerning the use of bitcoin and this is really making global usage of bitcoin very delayed. Let's not give up hope yet!

Crypto Enthusiast supporting innovative ideas for the Liberalization of the world from the Centralized Institutions.
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January 29, 2020, 01:41:12 AM
 #12

Your two main arguments seem to be that fees are high, and people are only here because of speculation.

First of all, if you paid 25% fee, then you overpaid A 1-input-2-output transaction can be made for 140 sats, which would work out at less than 1p in GBP. I make 1 sat/byte transactions pretty much daily. The longest I've waited over the last 2 weeks is an hour. Most of the time I'm waiting only a couple of blocks. Bitcoin is faster and cheaper than fiat methods. You've mentioned contactless cards - these have a huge fee associated with them, its just that the merchant eats the fee rather than the consumer, so you never see it.

I can't disagree with the point that there are plenty of people in the space who are only here to try to make some easy money. They frequently only use bitcoin as a stepping stone to buy alts, though, and often leave the space after losing out on alts as they frequently do. The people who are here long-term are still passionate about the future of bitcoin, and bitcoin's development is still going strong, with plenty of new features in development and on the horizon: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5207455.0.

You also seem to be big on shilling NANO. NANO isn't anything at all like Satoshi's original vision given that it is centralized.

NANO is not centralised, don't talk utter nonsense please. That's like saying Bitcoin was centralised when it first started out because there wasn't a diverse range of miners yet. There are multiple nodes which users can use and have voting power, just like ANY cryptocurrency, the more people that use it the more decentralised it becomes, every project is faced with this.

People in crypto really need to grow up in general, you praise or say anything slightly positive about a coin you're called a SHILLER say anything slightly negative and you're called a hater or accused of shilling for a competitor.

How can I be shilling when I said that I can't see NANO succeeding in the long run, the better technology doesn't always win, currently BCH/LTC are beating it and seeing more daily use regardless of NANO being cheaper (as it's free) and much faster (as it's near instant) yet it still can't beat these two.

I also pointed out NANO has it's flaws, such as the lack of privacy as well as a wide ranger of other issues. I'm not shilling, I'm just stating a fact, the original concept of Bitcoin that was set out in it's whitepaper, Bitcoin is doing it better, had NANO and Bitcoin been released at the same time, which do you think would be the market winner?

Am I suggesting others invest in it? Am I saying it will flip many of the other coins? Hell no! But I will give it praise where it deserves. Anything can happen in this space but if NANO has not succeeded after a couple of years of trying, it's not going to now as there's not much in terms of innovation and development, like I said it has it's issues.

Let's stop with the petty insults calling people a shill just because they have something positive to say, you're putting words into my mouth. I'm not encouraging anyone here to pickup NANO, they can do what they want, I'm making simple observations and drawn on one of many good and inspiring projects!

Also, I loved the way you used the fact the longest you've had to wait for a payment to clear is an hour, as some sort of redeeming factor! Let's see how people would feel if they had to wait 1 hour for a PayPal transaction to clear or 1 hour for their payment for coffee at Starbucks to clear etc etc.

As for the fees on cards being passed on to merchants, what's your point? We accept these across the bored, as a business owner myself I accept them, they're practically insignificant for the most part. Not to mention with crypto it's just the reverse, now the sender is paying a fee to the miners so the merchant / receiver may not get the fee but flipping roles doesn't make it any better!

Not to mention the fees (if you want a fast payment) can be extortionate and much more expensive than any CC processor.

You know I am from India. Our constitution makers way back in 1950 made our constitution to make India Republic they dreamt of a visionary India with low corruption and no caste system due to reservations but here India is standing in front of you after 70 years facing much bigger issues of caste system and in altogether different way that our makers thought but does this mean we aren't justified?

What I want to Convey is that it hardly matters that how the creator visioned things the vision needs to be updated with time due to circumstances not prevalant at the time. No one thought that btc could become so valuable one day even if it gains so much popularity. I think it's really interesting to see that how will Crypto evolve over the upcoming years. So you could really forget about what satoshi thought of bitcoin. Satoshi might be the creator but after all he is not the owner.

What's your point? OK, let's re-envision what Bitcoin is, it's now a store of value, great, but what's the value in, it's based in pure speculation, when it hits a ceiling and fails to make the % gains people want then what? What direction is it destined to go in?

Your right, it is a people powered project, that's the point of decentralisation. That doesn't mean people always make the right decisions, in fact, you only have to look through history and see where democracy has often got it wrong or disastrous events occur, Hitler wasn't a dictator you know, he got to where he was through a democratic process.

It's obvious from all the changes made to Bitcoin over the years that profit and ensuring it's success as a store of value is prioritised over everything else, which is fine, the people decide that and it's clear people will put their personal profits and gains before anything else.

The issue is, that can't last forever, the analogy I gave previously about the stock market still stands and I've not heard one single valid rebuttal. You can have something infinitely increase in value, companies that stop providing innovation, that stop bringing new things to the table, that stop offering a service, they crash and burn. Bitcoin can't just be a 'hold it forever and it will keep increasing in value infinitely' asset, there will be a ceiling and without adaption and change it will eventually crash and burn.

We will see who ends up being right, history will tell.

Do I ever think Bitcoin will go to 0? No, very unlikely, do I ever think it will still be as valuable as it is now? Not a chance.

At the moment and on a scale of 10 i would rate it as 4/10 because bitcoin is being used by most people as a store of value other than spending it in their daily transactions. Also, there are some factors that are also hindering the fulfillment of Satoshi's vision. Some Governments have made strict rules concerning the use of bitcoin and this is really making global usage of bitcoin very delayed. Let's not give up hope yet!

This is my point though, even IF people wanted to actually USE it as a form of PAYMENT it's incredibly ENEFICENT, if people were actually trying to use it to pay for stuff they'd wake up and realise that they're holding onto something that's basically useless, the only use it has is it's VALUE which is incredibly volatile, you may be able to make a good % profit from it but that's about it and how long does that really last. Nothing is infinitely scaleable when it comes to price, no stock or commodity is infinately scaling, when it levels out or when gains become the same or less than what you get from average stocks and it stays like that for a number of years, watch the price decrease and then once that starts it will plummet.

There's just no actual USE for it, when you try and USE Bitcoin you realise it's incredibly ineffective. I don't want to wait silly amount of times for a purchase to go through, look at digital purchases now in the market section, got and purchase an instant delivery, digital product and pay with Bitcoin. You will be waiting forever and a day unless you pay extremely high fees to have near instant confirmation, why would anyone use that when you can pay with PayPal or an alt and have it basically instantly.

Maybe Bitcoin can hold it's value just being a digital version of gold, possibly, but I just feel when it gets to the levels of regular stocks / commodities or drops below them levels, people will start to leave in favour of safer and more tangible assets.

I admit, I could be wrong about everything, who knows, time and history will tell guys. Like others have said, Bitcoin is powered by the people so maybe the community that maintain it wont let it come to that and maybe in the future changes will come into play that make it like it originally was in the early days and maybe that will revive it.

If I was a gambling man though, I'd put Bitcoin on the same road as MySpace was on, far too confident that nothing could come along and defeat it and while MySpace still exists it's nothing compared to it's former glory days, I feel Bitcoin faces the same fate.
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January 29, 2020, 01:49:26 AM
 #13

A lot would have to change to make Bitcoin a valid form of a digital payment system again and the community and devs maintaining Bitcoin seem to be wanting to go down the road of making it a store of value as opposed to a form of payment, not was Satoshi originally envisioned and not sustainable in my honest opinion.

I agree with this statement. Bitcoin has a lot of things to do and to catch up for it to become even at par with the modern ways of sending money anywhere. However, it does not mean that Bitcoin generally is getting to be worthless. While we have to accept that as of now it has had deviated from the most original vision of its founder, we have to understand the way things are and the challenges that it has gone through. Certainly, the journey of Bitcoin has not ended here and I would say that from the world perspective it has just even started. Bitcoin has become popular maybe for just one side of it and that is for speculative purposes and I see nothing really wrong with that because this is an asset albeit in digital form and therefore can be traded just like any other commodities. The main challenge right now is on the currency side and though things are slow I am still in a big faith that ultimately Bitcoin will be a big winner on this aspect, though I don't expect for it to become the prime or the foremost global currency as being the best alternative can be enough.
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January 29, 2020, 04:19:03 AM
 #14

you are just redefining "satoshi's vision" with your own interpretation to match your topic otherwise what you are saying here was not it. i wanted to discuss more about your subject but you ruined it by the following:

I still believe in Blockchain and I'm passionate about how Blockchain technology can revolutionise so many different industries, that's why one of my biggest holdings is in ETH.
ETH is literary the shittiest altcoin that has ever been created and if anything it is in complete contradiction of all you explained here as "satoshi's vision"
- it is centralized
- it is not immutable
- it has high fees
- it is slow
- it is not safe
- it is inflationary
- it is not even a currency
you can't even run an ethereum node since the blockchain size is around 4 TB. all people are doing is running light clients or using web wallets insecurely. saying you hold a lot of ETH only proves that you don't care about any of the things you posted here regarding bitcoin.

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January 29, 2020, 04:32:46 AM
 #15

I wonder for where did you extracted the so called satoshi's original vision.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Here's the original paper from satoshi himself and most of the statements made in the post are nowhere to be found in this original vision.
I haven't read everything satoshi has stated but I'm really suspicious when I see the phrase satoshi vision as satoshi have said less and his thoughts are interpreted and manipulated largely.

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January 29, 2020, 08:09:52 AM
 #16

There's just no actual USE for it, when you try and USE Bitcoin you realise it's incredibly ineffective. I don't want to wait silly amount of times for a purchase to go through, look at digital purchases now in the market section, got and purchase an instant delivery, digital product and pay with Bitcoin. You will be waiting forever and a day unless you pay extremely high fees to have near instant confirmation, why would anyone use that when you can pay with PayPal or an alt and have it basically instantly.

Well to be fair, it's the most secure and stable (in a sense where it would be the absolute last to lose people's trust) crypto out there. Sure you can keep money in LTC or BCH, but I'm not as certain they would still be around tomorrow as I am with BTC -- something which is often overlooked when talking about currencies. You do have valid concerns with the transactions, but like majority of the community I don't think it will be this way forever; if it stays like this, then you're absolutely correct that it's going to have very limited use cases, and that perhaps it shouldn't be valued as it should. Only time will really tell, but for now you can't deny that its massive ecosystem sets it apart from other crypto.

As for Satoshi's vision, it's still a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, so there's that. Beyond that, he has left development in the hands of the community, so I'm sure he would be at peace however it turns out. If he absolutely wanted things to have gone a specific way, he would have left a strict road map.

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January 29, 2020, 08:27:48 AM
 #17


What was Satoshi's original vision?

1) A digital, decentralised currency
2) That could be sent anywhere in the world
3) For fractions of a penny / as cheap as possible
4) In a short amount of time
5) Sending microtransactions to developing countries who were run down by poverty was a big selling point at the time

I shouldn't even be bothering to reply since you're a NANO shill, but to answer your questions (while that isn't even 'Satoshi's original vision').

1. Bitcoin is by far the most decentralized and secure cryptocurrency.
2. You can send Bitcoin anywhere in the world.
3. You can send on-chain transactions with a 1 sat/b fee or you can use the Lightning Network for smaller payments.
4. Lightning payments are instant.
5. See 4. It makes no sense since Bitcoin never had 'selling points' and Satoshi never mentioned this.

Bitcoin is electronic cash. Cash doesn't meant it should simply be cheap and instant to send. Read the Cypherpunk Manifesto if you want to understand what is truely meant by 'electronic cash'. I doubt you'll read it since you've obviously here to shill shitcoins.
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January 29, 2020, 08:38:06 AM
 #18

I work on contract in some third world countries and I can tell you from first hand experience that these remittance companies in some of these countries are definitely a lot more expensive than Bitcoin. I introduced Bitcoin to some people in these countries and subsequently put between 10% to 30% money back into their pockets by doing this.  Wink

When last have you done any global transfers of money? Some of these transfers takes up to 3 days to be processed. Bitcoin might not be instantaneous like Credit card payments, but the affect on your balance is evident within a couple of minutes. I have done credit card payments at some retailers and the transaction only shown after 1 or 2 days in my account.

Also, have you heard of the Lightning Network? You might be surprised to see almost instantaneous transactions on the Lightning Network being done at a fraction of the fees being charged for on-chain transactions.  

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January 29, 2020, 08:42:29 AM
Merited by o_e_l_e_o (2)
 #19

Before people start claiming that Lightning Network is unusable, here is a great example how you can onboard a new user within 30 seconds (this includes downloading a wallet, installing it, creating an invoice and receiving a payment): https://twitter.com/therealjokoono/status/1218582503356805120
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January 29, 2020, 11:15:12 AM
 #20

Also, I loved the way you used the fact the longest you've had to wait for a payment to clear is an hour, as some sort of redeeming factor! Let's see how people would feel if they had to wait 1 hour for a PayPal transaction to clear or 1 hour for their payment for coffee at Starbucks to clear etc etc.
A PayPal transaction takes 180 days to "clear". It easier to reverse a PayPal transaction than it is to reverse a zero-confirmation bitcoin transaction. It takes bitcoin 10 minutes (on average) to confirm; it takes PayPal 6 months. And if you need instant payments, such as to buy a coffee, then you use Lightning.

As for the fees on cards being passed on to merchants, what's your point?
Credit card fees can be up to 3%. If I'm buying something expensive then that can easily turn in to hundreds of dollars. With bitcoin, I can make the same on-chain transaction with a fee of 2 cents or less.

You will be waiting forever and a day unless you pay extremely high fees to have near instant confirmation
Damn, I guess the Lightning transaction I made to Bitrefill yesterday, where my payment was confirmed on the website before my wallet even gave me the "Transaction complete" notification, was all in my imagination. Roll Eyes

if people were actually trying to use it to pay for stuff they'd wake up and realise that they're holding onto something that's basically useless
I use it to pay for stuff almost daily. It's far from useless. I'm afraid that the arguments you are making suggest that you have made one or two poorly configured transactions where you overpaid on fees, and have therefore decided that bitcoin is uniformly terrible.
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