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Author Topic: ln_strike- a good sign for the Layer 2 Bitcoin Network.From fiat to btc in a sec  (Read 439 times)
iasenko
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January 31, 2020, 12:52:57 PM
Last edit: January 31, 2020, 01:28:53 PM by iasenko
Merited by fillippone (2), JayJuanGee (1)
 #1

I already posted a comment on the  The Lightning Network FAQ thread but I don't really want to derail it. Anyway I didn't find any other thread regarding this announcement from yesterday and decided that this news deserves its own thread.

So Zap - a popular Lightning Network wallet platform came with announcement of their project called Strike.
What you do with Strike is you use your Credit or Debit cards (fiat) to send BTC in the Lightning network in matter of seconds.
This is another good step ahead for adopting BTC for day life off-chain payments.

Quote
Today, we are announcing Strike, an application that allows you to make Lightning payments with your bank account or debit card. Using Strike requires the following: a debit card or bank account. That’s it; no wallet, no node, no channels, no swaps, no liquidity management, no anything. It’s an application, sitting on top of our infrastructure piece Olympus, designed to usher in an era of Bitcoin that we believe has the best shot of achieving our mainstream hopes and desires.

The future plans :

Quote
So, here is the plan. We will continually widen our BETA every week, and start with US users only, until we feel comfortable opening up usage globally. Our goal is to be in a public BETA and put Strike on App Stores in the coming months. This will take a community effort.

Source of the quotes: https://medium.com/@JimmyMow/announcing-strike-by-zap-4f578c7c8984

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January 31, 2020, 03:24:49 PM
 #2

sorry not seconds..
sorry not btc either.(bitcoin has no millisats)
btc has a blockchain and units of measure in 8 decimals...
.. LN does not
LN is a separate network not a btc layer. LN is used for multiple currencies.

this announcement is just promoting zap. not the btc network
..moving on

i dare anyone to take the time to type in card details and a true btc blockchain address and time how long it takes to see confirmed btc on a btc explorer.. it aint seconds

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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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January 31, 2020, 04:22:31 PM
Merited by nutildah (1), mk4 (1)
 #3

Anyway I didn't find any other thread regarding this announcement from yesterday and decided that this news deserves its own thread.

The announcement touts the tax advantages, but isn't quite clear on how that part works.  I'm assuming it's not a taxable event because of instant conversion, so there's no potential to make a gain/loss on the market rate?





*usual drivel*

And what straws would you be desperately clutching at if they had made LN with just 8 decimal places?

As always, I'm terribly sorry that people in the real world want to develop LN.  It's an awful shame that no one else is living in your fantasy dream world who even wants to attempt to implement any of the ideas you think are so great.

Actually, that's a lie.  I'm not sorry and it's not a shame at all.

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January 31, 2020, 04:59:24 PM
Last edit: January 31, 2020, 05:09:38 PM by Khaos77
 #4

Considering LN is nothing more than a 3rd party network.

LN should have it's own separate board on BTCTalk,

with it's own Dev sections and others, because it is clogging up space that is supposed to be bitcoin only.

Otherwise maybe , you should just rename BTCtalk to LNTalk.




So Zap - a popular Lightning Network wallet platform came with announcement of their project called Strike.
What you do with Strike is you use your Credit or Debit cards (fiat) to send BTC in the Lightning network in matter of seconds.
This is another good step ahead for adopting BTC for day life off-chain payments.

Quote
Today, we are announcing Strike, an application that allows you to make Lightning payments with your bank account or debit card. Using Strike requires the following: a debit card or bank account. That’s it; no wallet, no node, no channels, no swaps, no liquidity management, no anything. It’s an application, sitting on top of our infrastructure piece Olympus, designed to usher in an era of Bitcoin that we believe has the best shot of achieving our mainstream hopes and desires.

Bitcoin has a ~10 minutes blockspeed, transfer of bitcoin in seconds is impossible, unless using zero confirmations.
Even LN is not stupid enough to support zero confirmations as the counterfeiting of LN funds would be insane.
So what they really mean is that they have already deposited btc in an LN network, and when you use your credit card, they sell you a portion of their already deposited LN funds.
This means they totally bypassed the Bitcoin network using the LN network alone except for the single fee to time lock the bitcoins.
Nothing highly technical about any of it, just a pretense that they made bitcoin transactions possible in seconds, which they did not. Wink

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January 31, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
 #5

I were in sweden and found some money left in my bank account, I entered safello (even if normaly use localbitcoins and lbc vendors accept swish too) and proceeded "swished" the money to them, literaly in the same second i sent the "swish" i heard ding in my bitcoin wallet, without the need for LN.

swish is a easy way to send and recieve money from people on your phone number linked to bank.

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January 31, 2020, 05:28:54 PM
 #6

What's going to be the deal with this and compliance? Is the person proposing it operating a company that'll run it? It is effectively an exchange in itself.

I can imagine banks spraying out an army of kittens at the idea of this.

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January 31, 2020, 07:22:21 PM
 #7

Transactions are seen within seconds. Confirmation of the transaction in a block is what takes 10 minutes (more or less).

Then it also said "off chain" = those will not appear in any block explorer until much later, and you probably will not see it as an individual transaction, but the combination of all the transactions that are committed since that time.

If it's eventually settled on the first layer, on the BTC blockchain, then it must still be BTC right? Or tell me why not?

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February 01, 2020, 02:58:05 PM
 #8

If it's eventually settled on the first layer, on the BTC blockchain, then it must still be BTC right? Or tell me why not?

It's still BTC, the millisats are just rounded off at the moment.  It could be other coins too, technically, and then the transaction settled on the first layer would be on that coin's chain.  But since the announcement makes no reference to Litecoin, it's fair to assume they're only talking about Bitcoin for this app.  The two trolls in the topic are just taking potshots because one is bitter about scaling, while the other is constantly trying (and failing) to convince people that Proof-of-Stake is better.  Pay them no mind.

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February 01, 2020, 05:59:36 PM
 #9

If it's eventually settled on the first layer, on the BTC blockchain, then it must still be BTC right? Or tell me why not?

It's still BTC, the millisats are just rounded off at the moment.  It could be other coins too, technically, and then the transaction settled on the first layer would be on that coin's chain.  But since the announcement makes no reference to Litecoin, it's fair to assume they're only talking about Bitcoin for this app.  The two trolls in the topic are just taking potshots because one is bitter about scaling, while the other is constantly trying (and failing) to convince people that Proof-of-Stake is better.  Pay them no mind.


You give a Bank some Gold, they give you paper (with the promise that it is redeemable for the gold)
that you exchange that paper with others.
Now would anyone make the argument that you actually traded Gold or in truth traded only the promise of receiving gold from the bank at a later date.

LN is no different,
You time lock your bitcoins, and the LN network accepts that as a depost,
you then trade LN's notes ie: promises of bitcoin redemption .
You are trading the promises not the actual bitcoin.
You only access the actual bitcoin if you redeem the LN promises ONCHAIN.

LN=Bank

FYI:
LN offchain works with multiple coins, so saying LN notes are bitcoins, is also saying LN Notes are litecoin,
which hopefully the majority can see thru the nonsense to those statements.
LN Notes are Promises , nothing more, not the actual item that is being promised.

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February 01, 2020, 08:37:15 PM
 #10

Derivatives make the world go round. No one trades gold or dollars, but it's considered as dollars when you use your credit card, even though it can be reversed half a year later. Eventually the entire bitcoin ecosystem, including LN will have all these mechanisms in place, that merchants will accept your payment as good as bitcoin, and not mind paying a very small percentage as fees to the aggregators and miners and whatever else needs to get paid.

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February 02, 2020, 01:00:17 PM
Merited by iasenko (1)
 #11

LN=Bank

You need a new catchphrase, this one is getting pretty old and predictable.  It's also a myth that has been thoroughly debunked:

Are LN hubs the same as banks?

I hope by now it’s clear the answer is — no, not at all.

The most important difference in my view is that, unlike banks, LN hubs don’t hold your money. Your money is stored in a channel, anchored to the Bitcoin blockchain, and only you can authorize its movement. In any case that the channel counterparty refuses to cooperate, due to malice or incompetence, you can unilaterally close the channel and receive the money back as normal bitcoins.

This ability needn’t be exercised to be useful. Simply knowing that you can easily quit encourages the counterparty to behave and offer a good service. And it alone means that even in the extreme case of a completely centralized lightning “network” with a single hub connected to everyone, this is a marked improvement over traditional banking.

Meaning, even if your prognostication of Lightning becoming centralised did come true (and there's no sign yet that it will become centralised), it would still offer you greater control over your wealth than a bank does.  If you can't grasp this incredibly simple concept, you are not qualified to comment further (but I suspect you'll keep babbling nonsense regardless).

So if you're quite finished attempting to derail the topic, let's get back to the part where the developers of Strike chose Bitcoin and Lightning for their app.  Notice how they didn't choose any of the crapcoins you repeatedly claim are "better".  That's because, here in the real world, people care about the strength and integrity of the network.  They don't want to place their wealth on weak and insecure chains.  They don't want to use coins that no merchants will accept as payment because they're nothing more than a novelty or gimmick.  They don't want to use networks where there's only one or two developers who might get bored and leave the project in limbo.  And these are only some of the reasons why Bitcoin and Lightning are the preferred platform for so many projects.  And when people develop utilities like this, it helps Bitcoin and Lightning grow larger still.  The momentum will continue to build and nothing (least of all a pathetic troll like you) can stop it.

Thanks for playing!

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February 02, 2020, 01:54:32 PM
 #12


So Zap - a popular Lightning Network wallet platform came with announcement of their project called Strike.
What you do with Strike is you use your Credit or Debit cards (fiat) to send BTC in the Lightning network in matter of seconds.
This is another good step ahead for adopting BTC for day life off-chain payments.

Quote
Today, we are announcing Strike, an application that allows you to make Lightning payments with your bank account or debit card. Using Strike requires the following: a debit card or bank account. That’s it; no wallet, no node, no channels, no swaps, no liquidity management, no anything. It’s an application, sitting on top of our infrastructure piece Olympus, designed to usher in an era of Bitcoin that we believe has the best shot of achieving our mainstream hopes and desires.
From the problem that Jack solved using this app, it proves useful from a pro-BTC merchant's point of view than the customer's. A pro-BTC customer would probably already have an LN wallet with funds on it to make an LN payment. The app becomes useful if the merchant has an LN setup like his parent's shop while the customers don't care how they pay. The shop asks them to install the app and then use it for payments.

Why would a customer prefer the app over making a Debit card payment on a swipe machine/ PoS? Apps like Strike simplify the mechanics to use BTC provided the motivation to use is already there.

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February 02, 2020, 02:06:04 PM
 #13

This seems all very reliant on third parties and not actual blockchain but I figure pretty much everything is reliant on trusting the third party when you pay via debit and there is no wallet and no private keys.

That may be a big benefit for the mass userbase but that's a big No for me.

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February 03, 2020, 03:53:56 AM
 #14

LN=Bank

dumbmad mindless babble

Are LN hubs the same as banks?

I hope by now it’s clear the answer is — no, not at all.

The most important difference in my view is that, unlike banks, LN hubs don’t hold your money. Your money is stored in a channel, anchored to the Bitcoin blockchain, and only you can authorize its movement. In any case that the channel counterparty refuses to cooperate, due to malice or incompetence, you can unilaterally close the channel and receive the money back as normal bitcoins.

This ability needn’t be exercised to be useful. Simply knowing that you can easily quit encourages the counterparty to behave and offer a good service. And it alone means that even in the extreme case of a completely centralized lightning “network” with a single hub connected to everyone, this is a marked improvement over traditional banking.

dumbmad mindless babble



Banks & LN both hold your money,
You think that silly little multisig means they can't confiscate your bitcoins.
Broadcast an old transaction in LN, and the other LN user can confiscate your entire amount in the channel.
Notice LN hubs & Banks charge fees. Every fee pulls from your bitcoins, once redeemed.
LN & Banks are both 3rd parties that isolate you from the real value, for speed and ease.

LN=Bank, sorry you & your buddy are too stupid to comprehend reality.

Satoshi ended Banker dominance with Bitcoin,
Bitcoin Core Devs returned Banker dominance with LN. (They received a nice payoff for it too.)

Hey , Do I hear CB calling you home for a spanking.  Cheesy
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February 03, 2020, 11:55:08 AM
 #15

What's going to be the deal with this and compliance? Is the person proposing it operating a company that'll run it? It is effectively an exchange in itself.

I can imagine banks spraying out an army of kittens at the idea of this.

interesting question. at first glance, it seems more like a payment processor (like bitpay in reverse) than an exchange. but it's actually a lot more versatile, since invoices can be effectively used as buys and sells:

Quote
Can Strike be used to buy bitcoin? Sure, create an invoice from your existing wallet and pay it. After completion, you’ll have less fiat in Strike and more bitcoin in your wallet.

Can Strike be used to sell bitcoin? Sure, create a request in Strike and send to it from your wallet. After completion, you’ll have more fiat in Strike and less bitcoin in your wallet.

i really don't understand how it works under the hood. where is the BTC to fulfill invoices being sourced from? it seems like there must be a centralized market making mechanism to be able to instantly fulfill the requests.

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February 03, 2020, 01:05:36 PM
 #16

Broadcast an old transaction in LN, and the other LN user can confiscate your entire amount in the channel.

Don't do that, that just means you're trying to break the system, and the other LN can confiscate your entire amount as deterrent from someone trying to cheat the system.

Know what you're doing, in other words. It has happened to a few other users but it's all their fault really.

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February 03, 2020, 02:05:42 PM
 #17

Broadcast an old transaction in LN, and the other LN user can confiscate your entire amount in the channel.

Don't do that, that just means you're trying to break the system, and the other LN can confiscate your entire amount as deterrent from someone trying to cheat the system.

Know what you're doing, in other words. It has happened to a few other users but it's all their fault really.

And if LN had been designed without revocations in place, the detractors and trolls would have a really easy job, because then all you would need to do is always spend from an outdated commitment and easily defraud people.  The current implementation of Lightning would not be possible without revocations.  So it only makes the trolls look even more ridiculous and ill-informed when they claim that the very part that makes it secure is somehow a bad thing for users.

We'll also have to see what happens with Eltoo, since there may be an alternative way to handle maintaining channel states.  I look forward to the trolls' feeble attempts to undermine that one as well.  



Quote
Can Strike be used to buy bitcoin? Sure, create an invoice from your existing wallet and pay it. After completion, you’ll have less fiat in Strike and more bitcoin in your wallet.

Can Strike be used to sell bitcoin? Sure, create a request in Strike and send to it from your wallet. After completion, you’ll have more fiat in Strike and less bitcoin in your wallet.

i really don't understand how it works under the hood. where is the BTC to fulfill invoices being sourced from? it seems like there must be a centralized market making mechanism to be able to instantly fulfill the requests.

I can see how that would be a tricky one from a business perspective.  On the one hand, they want to assure people it's a legitimate business model, but on the other hand, they probably can't give away the finer details until they're a little more established, in order to avoid another company playing copycat and ripping off their business model.  They'll naturally want to make the most of first-mover advantage.

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February 03, 2020, 02:30:45 PM
 #18

Banks & LN both hold your money,
Based off this argument, since I hold my own money and my own bitcoin(none-custodial), then holy crap so it means I'm a bank too!?

Also, whatever your opinions are concerning LN(or Liquid, or future layer2's), you're never forced to use it. No one is!

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February 03, 2020, 08:19:51 PM
 #19

Why would a customer prefer the app over making a Debit card payment on a swipe machine/ PoS?

It depends how much incentive (i.e. discount) the merchant can give. In Jack Mallers' post, he gave the example of merchants in the cannabis industry:

Quote
Those processing payments in the cannabis industry charge between 5%-15%, and are known to be unreliable and unstable.

That implies that merchants already have the margins to give customers 5%-15% discounts if their processing costs could be brought close to 0%. It's a big enough discount to get people to start using the app, since it leverages a payment rail they were planning on using anyway -- their debit card:

Quote
My parents were already running a BTCPay Server instance and offered a 10% discount for anyone who paid in BTC, as it was so much easier for us to accept. The problem was, no customer was able to get a Lightning wallet set up to make payments ranging from $0.10–$500. With Strike, this changes immediately. All you need is the app and a debit card.

We passed Strike around to a few frequent customers and family friends, telling them if you use this app, you get a 10% discount. It worked. Customers young and old were using Strike to shop at our store, getting a discount, and helping our business.

It's pretty cool, but the model probably won't work for lower margin businesses that don't have the same payment processing problems.

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February 04, 2020, 01:45:03 AM
Last edit: February 04, 2020, 02:01:41 AM by Khaos77
 #20

Banks & LN both hold your money,
Based off this argument, since I hold my own money and my own bitcoin(none-custodial), then holy crap so it means I'm a bank too!?

Also, whatever your opinions are concerning LN(or Liquid, or future layer2's), you're never forced to use it. No one is!

The Bank is not You, LN is not You.
They are both 3rd parties charging you fees to use their systems.

If you are in physical possession of your gold or bitcoin, then it is yours dummy, and you would not be a bank.

Giving 3rd parties control of your finances is what Satoshi wanted to end.
Way to fuck that up with LN.   Tongue

FYI:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/at6oak/why_the_lightning_network_is_recreating_the/
Quote
I think the proponents of LN actually do not want people to withdraw their funds.
They are re-creating Bitcoin BTC into a new custodial system.

Only rich entities such as banks will be able to withdraw their funds, because only they will be able to afford the fees to do so.
Everyone else will be stuck keeping funds in channels always, due to high fees.

The design is pretty clear: It's a remake of what we already have today.
Banks holding people's funds.

LN=BANKS
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