I needed help understanding what trans people feel....

[jackg]

I can move with the times and accept the necessity of gender being a thing. Some interesting points on surgery and other negatives wee mentioned though which might be interesting.

Just going to add a trigger warning for suicide in the content that follows beyond my post if anyone needed one.



I was going to go to mainstream. Social. Media with this but I'd probably just end up getting labelled as a transphobe so I'm wondering if anyone can help me here.

I have quite a few issues with the idea of having lgbtqa+ people and trans people as a separated group as I don't think it does anything to help anyone with the divides... It just seems to separate the two communities as I see it and a lot of non cis people (especially on social media) don't seem to like cis people (or at least its how they come across).

The idea of transgender people for sets out a bit of a problem in the fact that it either forces people to come out as a different gender than what they want to be because they might think they seem more like that gender. We're also taking things far too scientific, it's not like there's only one version of X and one version of Y - there are many different versions of both chromosome types so gender in the way a lot of people view it should be more fluid and thus pronouns to me should link to biological sex instead...

But can anyone explain to me why people would want to assign themselves a different gender and what they'd aim to achieve from that?

[iluvbitcoins]

There are people who suffer a disorder that makes you want to cut off your limbs.
We wouldn't tell those people do whatever makes you happy, you go girl!
We don't enable them, we tell them they have a disorder, we don't help them pay to get their limbs cut off.

Transgenders cut their dick off and turn the skin inside out so it resembles a vagina.
41% of them commit suicide after the surgery.
Why do we enable these people so they end up killing themselves?
Why are we such horrible human beigns?
Because we feel open and progressive about that?
Human life should be more important.

--
Other than human life and suicide taking testosterone doesn't make you male. Additional T makes your bones less dense, and males by birth already have denser bones, which females will have even rarer because of the additional T. You still have XX chromosomes, different bone structure and a womb.

Taking estrogen and breast implants doesn't make you female either. You still have XY chromosomes, you can't bear children, you can't breastfeed, you can't have periods, you're physically stronger, have denser bones and different bone structure.

--

The reason for this is because they're used as a tool.
You can't have antifacism if there's no facism.
You can't fight for someones rights if everyone has guaranteed rights.
There needs to be facism and oppressed in order to justify your own existence. They wouldn't have a purpose other than that.

[Foxpup]

a lot of non cis people (especially on social media) don't seem to like cis people (or at least its how they come across).

This mostly seems to be the result of cis people being inconsiderate assholes, for example by asking unprovoked questions about their genitals and medical history. You wouldn't start a conversation with a cis woman by asking if she's had a boob job, would you? And while it's not really fair to stereotype all cis people on the basis that many of them are assholes, you can't really blame trans people for doing so when this is the sort of shit they have to deal with on a regular basis.

But can anyone explain to me why people would want to assign themselves a different gender and what they'd aim to achieve from that?

Not really. Nobody can explain it to you, since in most (nearly all?) cases trans people can't even explain it to themselves. A trans person doesn't know why they want to be a different gender any more than a straight person knows why they want to have sex with people of a different gender, or a gay person knows why they want to have sex with people of the same gender; that's just the way they are, and if they had any idea why that was the case, they would most likely prefer to change that rather than going to the not-insignificant trouble of changing gender.

I'm a cismale but if someone called me a "she" I don't think I'd particularly sweat it (especially if it wasn't in a condescending way).

That's the benefit of cis privilege. If, on the other hand, you were a trans man among a group of people who don't know you used to be woman, and the person calling you "she" is doing so intentionally in order to reveal that fact thus potentially causing you embarrassment or worse, you may indeed particularly sweat it. When trans people complain about people using incorrect pronouns, this is what they're talking about. They're not talking about simple mistakes or slips of the tongue ("We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister, sorry.") which they're totally understanding of and don't really care about.

EDIT: Typo

[iluvbitcoins]

That's the benefit of cis privilege. If, on the other hand, you were a trans man among a group of people who don't know you used to be woman

You didn't use to be a woman, you were a woman and you are a woman.
Flipping your dick inside out doesn't change that.

Not really. Nobody can explain it to you, since in most (nearly all?) cases trans people can't even explain it to themselves.

They can't accept themselves for who they are but they want to mandate us to accept them for who they'd like to be.

[Foxpup]

That's the benefit of cis privilege. If, on the other hand, you were a trans man among a group of people who don't know you used to be woman

You didn't use to be a woman, you were a woman and you are a woman.
Flipping your dick inside out doesn't change that.

You know, I avoided dignifying your earlier post with a response because of how laughably incorrect it is, but I just have to ask... How exactly is someone who was born a woman and doesn't have a dick supposed to flip it inside out?

[iluvbitcoins]

That's the benefit of cis privilege. If, on the other hand, you were a trans man among a group of people who don't know you used to be woman

You didn't use to be a woman, you were a woman and you are a woman.
Flipping your dick inside out doesn't change that.

You know, I avoided dignifying your earlier post with a response because of how laughably incorrect it is, but I just have to ask... How exactly is someone who was born a woman and doesn't have a dick supposed to flip it inside out?

Don't be transphobic, women have dicks too.
https://www.newsweek.com/can-woman-have-penis-gender-identity-myths-explained-1093051

What's incorrect about the first post? Please don't say you can remove your uterus  
Estrogen improves bone density, that's why older women get osteoporosis when they don't produce as much.
Females already have a lot rarer bone density than males and then they replace their estrogen with testosterone further increasing this difference.
Really healthy!

And sorry, taking hormones to prolong your clitoris doesn't make you male. Biology makes you male.

If Fallon Fox is a woman according to you because he flipped his dick inside out, took hormone therapy and had a boob job, how did 'she' break  her oppononets skull?
Isn't 'she' supposed to be female now?
I mean, can hormone therapy and a scalpel do the job?

Here's the person with a broken skull and XX chromosomes

I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right… I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isn’t fair.

“Twenty years ago, if a man hit a woman so hard that he sent her to the hospital, he’d be in prison. Now he can get paid for it.”

[jackg]

Well that went a little off topic by the end hmm....

I just can't picturea n idea of splitting up the camps so much between men and women. Statistically speaking, men are probably stronger and more intelligent (in certain regards), and women are more creative and better with organisation - but there are still many different outliers and confusions to this rule that it doesn't seem logical.


Also on your other topic of conversation, your penis doesn't become a penis until a few weeks after conception.... So you too have grown one of you're a biological male.

Can we not put trans people in their own category for sport?

[xtraelv]

That's the benefit of cis privilege. If, on the other hand, you were a trans man among a group of people who don't know you used to be woman

You didn't use to be a woman, you were a woman and you are a woman.
Flipping your dick inside out doesn't change that.

You know, I avoided dignifying your earlier post with a response because of how laughably incorrect it is, but I just have to ask... How exactly is someone who was born a woman and doesn't have a dick supposed to flip it inside out?

Looks like iluvbitcoins advocates assigning gender based on "born with" equipment. Regardless of other considerations like:

Feelings, identity, external looks, hormones, chromosome abnormalities (Deletions, Duplications, Translocations, Inversions, Insertions, Rings,Isochromosome ), hermaphrodites etc..





It doesn't affect me but I wouldn't ridicule others over it.

Often suicides are about how they are not accepted by others. It must be difficult to want to be different than what you have been supplied with or how others want to treat you.

[iluvbitcoins]

Well that went a little off topic by the end hmm....

I just can't picturea n idea of splitting up the camps so much between men and women. Statistically speaking, men are probably stronger and more intelligent (in certain regards), and women are more creative and better with organisation - but there are still many different outliers and confusions to this rule that it doesn't seem logical.


Also on your other topic of conversation, your penis doesn't become a penis until a few weeks after conception.... So you too have grown one of you're a biological male.

Can we not put trans people in their own category for sport?

We can't because that proves they aren't women.

Looks like iluvbitcoins advocates assigning gender based on "born with" equipment. Regardless of other considerations like:

I don't assign your gender. I'm not the genetic code.

Feelings

People have Body integrity dysphoria.
They feel a desire to cut off their limbs.
Would you argue we should support them?

identity

I can identify as president of the United States. I'm still not the president.
It's unhealthy and counterproductive to enable people in their delusions.

external looks

Biology.

hormones

No, biology.

chromosome abnormalities (Deletions, Duplications, Translocations, Inversions, Insertions, Rings,Isochromosome )

These are chromosome abnormalities which are biological -they're chromosome abnormalities.
It's not the same as Body Integrity dysphoria and Gender dysphoria where the persons chromosomes don't have abnormalities.
They have a disphoria.

hermaphrodites

Hermaphordites are also biological hermaphrodites. They don't have a disphoria.

It doesn't affect me but I wouldn't ridicule others over it.

Neither would I. I would ridicule "cis" people who support it because they're the ones at fault so many people mutilate themselves.
Transgenders are not at fault here, they suffer a disorder called gender disphoria.
No sane person would ridicule a sick person.
It's your fault if you support that. You took a part in it.
Just google sex change regret and look at post surgery suicide rates which are in level of statistical error from presurgery suicide rates.
Nothing changes with the surgery. And you enable it.

It must be difficult to want to be different than what you have been supplied with or how others want to treat you.

Yes. It's very difficult.
It's very difficult wanting to live without limbs when you have limbs in Body integrity disphoria.

Often suicides are about how they are not accepted by others.

It's because they don't accept themselves. And that's why they need counseling and psychotherapy. Not some idiots that say, go cut off your dick, you're going to be female and everything's going to be okay! Except they won't be okay and almost 40% will commit suicide - and they'll never be able to return to their pre-op state.

[jackg]

Unless you're a friend or know them well, you should probably meet them with indifference towards it. Much like how you'd be indifferent to hair colour, eye colour...

It's up to their friends and surgeons to decide whether they're of sound mind to make their own decisions. The only thing I can think of as being similar is someone with a physical disability being offered a cure when they're 20, would you take it or not? It'd often depend on the person. I'm pretty sure things as simple as having an extra toe are considered a disability of sorts too so... [it's obviously a lot different but I couldn't think of anything].

[iluvbitcoins]

Unless you're a friend or know them well, you should probably meet them with indifference towards it. Much like how you'd be indifferent to hair colour, eye colour...

It's up to their friends and surgeons to decide whether they're of sound mind to make their own decisions. The only thing I can think of as being similar is someone with a physical disability being offered a cure when they're 20, would you take it or not? It'd often depend on the person. I'm pretty sure things as simple as having an extra toe are considered a disability of sorts too so... [it's obviously a lot different but I couldn't think of anything].

I know of no cure that causes a 40% suicide rate with irreversible genital mutilation and even those surviving it regretting taking the cure.

How many transgenders killed themselves 50 years ago when their delusions weren't enabled?

[jackg]

Tbf, it's hard to work out what's fact and what's fiction:

the greatest flaws in medical literature about gender reassignment were in those studies unsympathetic to transsexual people. For example, one study was based on a survey of seven transsexual prostitutes interviewed in one gay bar in Chicago.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

(the guardian are fairly left leaning, more left than I am but still seem to not be too far gone as to be overly biased)...

Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.

[iluvbitcoins]

Tbf, it's hard to work out what's fact and what's fiction:

the greatest flaws in medical literature about gender reassignment were in those studies unsympathetic to transsexual people. For example, one study was based on a survey of seven transsexual prostitutes interviewed in one gay bar in Chicago.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

(the guardian are fairly left leaning, more left than I am but still seem to not be too far gone as to be overly biased)...

Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.

You're making a mistake using the media to get scientific information.
Most of the information you get from the media is biased, cherry-picked or even flat out lies.
I can support this claim if necessary with a whole new thread.

Besides the obvious suicide rates, irreversible genital mutilation, and trans regret this "you're female if you feel like it" sets a precedent.
If you can feel like a different sex and compell other people to oblige to your feeling, how long until other things become obliged because someone feels like something? What happens when I start feeling 15?
Why would we discriminate against 40 year olds who feel 15? They are 15! And you're just discriminating against them.
Sex with minors isn't illegal if you're 15.

[jackg]

So provide your own from a legitimate source?

[iluvbitcoins]

So provide your own from a legitimate source?

I'm not sure what info you're looking for exactly?
But using a search engine to find scientific literature and statistics is a way to go.
I mean you can use the media to find research papers but avoid reading any info they've written about it other than stating facts.

[jackg]

I'm after finding where your 40% figure came from.


Although maybe you've just plucked it from thin air now and assigned it to that.

[iluvbitcoins]

I'm after finding where your 40% figure came from.


Although maybe you've just plucked it from thin air now and assigned it to that.

I didn't say the data you quoted is incorrect, I said that you shouldn't quote the article. They are news reporters and not scientists.
You should of quoted the paper because reports aren't a legitimate source on the issue.
The research they quote - is a research and is legitimate, the description of it may be, or may not be.
Will look it up and edit this post in a couple of minutes.

Edit:

Among the starkest findings is that 40% of respondents have attempted suicide in their lifetime—nearly nine times the attempted suicide rate in the U.S. population (4.6%).

Source:
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

The Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive is quoting death by suicide. 18% die from suicide and 40% seem to commit it (succesfully and unsuccessfully). It's relieving to see less than half succeed.

If you look at the post op data
This is the biggest and longest study yet I believe
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885



You can see after the first year they probably do feel better etc. but after ~10 years their mortality rate is almost in free-fall (mostly suicides) and diverges on average some ~13% from the control group.
If the attempted suicide rate in the US is 4.6%, and the average succesful suicide rate among the trangender community is 18%.
We can assume the 13% divergance rate from the control group bears no relevant statistical improvoment on the preoperation period.
It obviously does alleaviate some symptoms of gender dysphoria as the participants report they do feel better but their mental health doesn't improve at all.

This suggests that male-to-females are at higher risk for suicide attempts after sex reassignment, whereas female-to-males maintain a female pattern of suicide attempts after sex reassignment (Tables S1 and S2).

[jackg]

Yeah I can't find any other source here. Apparently universities are turning down opportunities to research it for fear of being labelled politically incorrect. Or somethin glike that.

[iluvbitcoins]

Yeah I can't find any other source here. Apparently universities are turning down opportunities to research it for fear of being labelled politically incorrect. Or somethin glike that.

I imagine saying something along the lines 'counseling and psychotherapy would help transgender people,not reassingment' would cause quite an uproar and is therefore disincetivized.
You can always use the data that is allowed.
You can definitely find something even in the research that's focused on reassingment

[xtraelv]

Yeah I can't find any other source here. Apparently universities are turning down opportunities to research it for fear of being labelled politically incorrect. Or somethin glike that.

I imagine saying something along the lines 'counseling and psychotherapy would help transgender people,not reassingment' would cause quite an uproar and is therefore disincetivized.
You can always use the data that is allowed.
You can definitely find something even in the research that's focused on reassingment

People can have silicone implants to enhance their appearance. Body modifications, piercings and tattoos.

Why would you not allow people to re assign their sex ?

Any body modification comes with the chance of regret. Just google tattoo regret.

But just because some people regret it doesn't mean it should be banned or not be done.

Psychology is not a pure science. The DSM manual(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) changes over time based on opinions. Homosexuality was a disorder in the DSM-3

One could argue that terrorism, extreme sexism, religious extremism or extreme racism is a mental disorder - yet that is not categorized in the DSM except for Hyperreligiosity