I needed help understanding what trans people feel....

[iluvbitcoins]

People can have silicone implants to enhance their appearance. Body modifications, piercings and tattoos.

Why would you not allow people to re assign their sex ?

Any body modification comes with the chance of regret. Just google tattoo regret.

But just because some people regret it doesn't mean it should be banned or not be done.

Psychology is not a pure science. The DSM manual(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) changes over time based on opinions. Homosexuality was a disorder in the DSM-3

One could argue that terrorism, religious extremism or extreme racism is a mental disorder - yet that is not categorized in the DSM.

"Attempting suicide" is also not the same as "committing suicide".

Attempts are often a cry for help. It could also be due to bullying, discrimination, financial strains, depression, PTSD or many other factors - rather than re-assignment regret . It also doesn't show whether the re-assignment prolonged the will to live.

Would you apply the same logic you mentionted to Body integrity disphoria?

I don't believe anything that doesn't cause harm to other people should be banned - by law. It's up to the people to choose.
But people who care about that person shouldn't allow him if it's within their power (using conversation, advice, support etc.)
People don't kill themselves because of tattoo regret (not usually at least). Chimps are racist as well, but I doubt they mutilate their own genitals.
We just crossed a research that stated that male-to-female post-op have an increased risk of suicide than before the operation. Why would we encourage them to do it?

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[xtraelv]

Would you apply the same logic you mentionted to Body integrity disphoria?

It would depend on the circumstances.

How severe are the symptoms ? - How severe is the loss of limb ? - Is the person capable of making an informed decision ? - What is the risk that the person will remove the limb themselves ?

I don't believe anything that doesn't cause harm to other people should be banned - by law. It's up to the people to choose.
But people who care about that person shouldn't allow him if it's within their power (using conversation, advice, support etc.)
People don't kill themselves because of tattoo regret (not usually at least). Chimps are racist as well, but I doubt they mutilate their own genitals.
We just crossed a research that stated that male-to-female post-op have an increased risk of suicide than before the operation. Why would we encourage them to do it?

An estimated 25% of the US population aged 18 to 50 years has a tattoo, which have been associated with markers of high-risk behaviors including alcohol and drug use, violence, carrying weapons, sexual activity, eating disorders, and suicide.

A case-control study of tattoos in young suicide victims as a possible marker of risk.

Tattoo frequency and types among homicides and other deaths, 2007-2008: a matched case-control study.

Are Tattoos an Indicator of Severity of Non-Suicidal Self-Injury Behavior in Adolescents?

https://www.advdermatology.com/blog/statistics-surrounding-tattoo-regret


Just because something may have a negative effect on some people doesn't mean that other people should be disadvantaged by it.

Also statistics have to be seen in context. The statistics I have seen do not rule out other causes.

"Attempting suicide" is also not the same as "committing suicide".

Attempts are often a cry for help. It could also be due to bullying, discrimination, financial strains, depression, PTSD or many other factors - rather than re-assignment regret . It also doesn't show whether the re-assignment prolonged the will to live.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

The study also mentions AIDS and doesn't mention their background (e.g. former or current sex workers). It is also a possible side effect from the hormone treatment or other medications.

In countries where euthanasia is accepted by the majority of the population - suicide to prevent suffering (e.g. from the symptoms of AIDS) it is possible that it accounts for some of the suicides.

The 40% statistic is something that has been touted by right-wing activist Walt Heyer

Not all transgender suffer from gender dysphoria.


https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria

Discriminatory experiences associated with posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms among transgender adults

[iluvbitcoins]

It would depend on the circumstances.

How severe are the symptoms ? - How severe is the loss of limb ? - Is the person capable of making an informed decision ? - What is the risk that the person will remove the limb themselves ?

You're seriously considering supporting people in their wish to cut off their limbs?

An estimated 25% of the US population aged 18 to 50 years has a tattoo, which have been associated with markers of high-risk behaviors including alcohol and drug use, violence, carrying weapons, sexual activity, eating disorders, and suicide.

25% is tattoed.
Research you posted

Tattoos were found in 21% of suicides.

That's a really slight difference from the general population, which could be attributed to various subcultures surrounding prison&gang population that include a lot of tattoos.

The general population attempts suicide at a rate of 4.6%, the transgender community attempts it at a 40% rate.
That difference is not slight. It's a 9:1 ratio compared to the 1.19:1 of the tattoo community. 19% increase and 900% (while transgenderism isn't attributed to certain subcultures while tattoos are).

Just because something may have a negative effect on some people doesn't mean that other people should be disadvantaged by it.

Normalizing transgenderism will create new transgenders which will eventually become depressed and in vast amounts even commit suicide.
Children are talked into transgenderism on a daily basis.
I can substantiate this very well if necessary.

The 40% statistic is something that has been touted by right-wing activist Walt Heyer

I have posted the same data from National Center for Transgender Equality. I'm positive they're not right-wing.
Their hompeage has a picture that says 'Equality for Transgenders' and the name is National Center for Transgender Equality.
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

The article you posted is pure propaganda. Almost nothing in it is fact.

A popular right-wing activist with extreme, discredited views about LGBT people

1. Not right wing
2. He is the LGBTIQ+ people

rabidly anti-LGBT web magazine The Federalist

So unbiased

Heyer's life story has made him a pseudo-celebrity in anti-LGBT circles

Anti LGBT? He's a transgender who went through sex reassingment surgery!

Since then, he's pushed the debunked claim that transgender people often experience regret after transitioning, arguing that what transgender people actually need is "psychiatric or psychological help."

Debunked?
We just read through longitudinal research papers that prove male-to-female post-op suicide risk increases and female-to-male remains the same.

*inserted CNN clip*
 

who tout his story as proof that being transgender is a mental problem that can be treated or cured.

40% of them attempt suicide. You don't believe that's a mental problem?

Why did you think a transgender person who went through sexual reassingement surgery is right-wing and anti-LGBT?

I found one short documentary that includes the person that's described here. You should watch it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pxxBQm114k
There's a lot of people that think surgery is a bad idea and sex can't be changed.
The media calls them transgender haters even when they ARE transgenders just because it doesn't fit their narrative.

[xtraelv]

Tattoos were found in 21% of suicides.

That's a really slight difference from the general population, which could be attributed to various subcultures surrounding prison&gang population that include a lot of tattoos.

The general population attempts suicide at a rate of 4.6%, the transgender community attempts it at a 40% rate.
That difference is not slight. It's a 9:1 ratio compared to the 1.19:1 of the tattoo community. 19% increase and 900% (while transgenderism isn't attributed to certain subcultures while tattoos are).

That is terrible misuse of statistics.

Suicide and attempted suicide is not the same.

A filled out survey and death statistics are vastly different.

Anyone can fill out a survey and say they are suicidal. No clinical check up. No prodding about underlying issues.

Why does the study on tattoos describe it as "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors".

While the transgender study describe it as "increased risk of suicide".

See the problem ?
Transgender also is  "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors" such as prostitution and substance abuse.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Transgender-Suicide-Sept-2019.pdf

As well as unique issues:

Experiencing discrimination or mistreatment in education, employment, housing, health care, in
places of public accommodations, or from law enforcement

Rejection by family.

Rejection by religious organisations.

Experiences of violence


The following is really revealing:

We also found that there are some factors that are associated with lower risk of suicide thoughts and
attempts for USTS respondents:

• Respondents with supportive families reported lower prevalence of past-year and lifetime suicide
thoughts and attempts.

• Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had
substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who
wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.

• A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination
statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without
such a statute.

“While the NTDS provides a wealth of information about the experiences of transgender and gender non-conforming people, the survey instrument and methodology posed some limitations for this study. First, the NTDS questionnaire included only a single item about suicidal behavior that asked, “Have you ever attempted suicide?” with dichotomized responses of Yes/No. Researchers have found that using this question alone in surveys can inflate the percentage of affirmative responses, since some respondents may use it to communicate self-harm behavior that is not a “suicide attempt,” such as seriously considering suicide, planning for suicide, or engaging in self-harm behavior without the intent to die (Bongiovi-Garcia et al., 2009). The National Comorbity Survey, a nationally representative survey, found that probing for intent to die through in-person interviews reduced the prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts from 4.6 percent to 2.7 percent of the adult sample (Kessler et al., 1999; Nock & Kessler, 2006). Without such probes, we were unable to determine the extent to which the 41 percent of NTDS participants who reported ever attempting suicide may overestimate the actual prevalence of attempts in the sample. In addition, the analysis was limited due to a lack of follow-up questions asked of respondents who reported having attempted suicide about such things as age and transgender/gender non-conforming status at the time of the attempt.”
It’s inflated. Because it was a binary question and may include all self-harm attempts. Studies done on those binary questions have shown that it can completely inflate your results.


“ Second, the survey did not directly explore mental health status and history, which have been identified as important risk factors for both attempted and completed suicide in the general population (Lasage, Boyer, Grunberg, Vanier, Morissett et al., 1994; Suominen, Henrikssen, Suokas, Isometsa, Ostamo, et al., 1996; Harris & Barraclough, 1997; Bertolote & Fleischmann, 2002; Nock, Hwang, Sampson, & Kessler, 2010). Further, research has shown that the impact of adverse life events, such as being attacked or raped, is most severe among people with co-existing mood, anxiety and other mental disorders (Breslau, Davis, Andreski, & Peterson, METHODS AND LIMITATIONS 4 Methods — continued 1991; Kendler, Kardowski, & Presco, 1999). The lack of systematic mental health information in the NTDS data significantly limited our ability to identify the pathways to suicidal behavior among the respondents”

They don’t know why the rate is so high — so you can’t say 41% of transgender people attempt suicide because of ‘lack of acceptance’ or ‘bathroom bills or ‘Donald Trump’. Because the study didn’t ask those questions. That would be the case even if the study didn’t have major methodological problems anyway:

Third, since the NTDS utilized convenience sampling, it is unclear how representative the respondents are of the overall U.S. transgender/gender non-conforming adult population. Further, the survey’s focus on discrimination may have resulted in wider participation by persons who had suffered negative life experiences due to antitransgender bias.1 As the relationship between minority stress and mental health would suggest (Meyer, 2003), this may have contributed to a higher prevalence of negative outcomes, including lifetime suicide attempts, in the sample. These limitations should be kept in mind in interpreting the findings of our analyses.
What’s a convenience sample? How is that a methodological flaw? Simply put: the results of a survey of a convenience sample are only relevant to that particular sample. How?
Say I asked ten friends about whether they liked purple hats. As it turns out, all those friends like purple hats. I cannot then go and say ‘one-hundred per cent of people like purple hats’. I only asked my friends — maybe we all belong to the Purple Hat Club. Convenience sampling introduces too much bias for results to be meaningful outside of the sample itself.
In fact let’s have this paper in Developmental Review explain it better than I can, because you can’t use a convenience sample like that:
“Regarding its disadvantages, results that derive from convenience sampling have known generalizability only to the sample studied. Thus, any research question addressed by this strategy is limited to the sample itself. The same limitation holds true for estimates of differences between sociodemographic subgroups. As another disadvantage, convenience samples typically include small numbers of underrepresented sociodemographic subgroups (e.g., ethnic minorities) resulting in insufficient power to detect subgroup differences within a sociodemographic factor or factors. Moreover, although small in number, these underrepresented sociodemographic subgroups introduce modest amounts of variation into the sample, enough variation to produce statistical noise in the analyses but not enough variation to harness or control statistically. Indeed, the widespread use of convenience sampling may be partly responsible for the host of small and inconsistent effects that pervade developmental science, why sizes of effects often vary depending on the variables considered, and why research shows links between particular setting conditions and outcomes for some, but not other, groups”
That 41% stat is bogus.

https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-transgender-movement-and-bad-stats-a-debunking-compilation-31760947b382

You're seriously considering supporting people in their wish to cut off their limbs?

Why not ?

If you are going to cut your arm off with an axe or have it safely removed by a surgeon - because it causes you mental pain. Why should I stop you ?

The surgeon is the safer option.

[iluvbitcoins]

That is terrible misuse of statistics.

Suicide and attempted suicide is not the same.

I'm sorry but you're the one terribly misconstruing the points here.
You bolded a part that had nothing to do with the first part.

25% is tattoed.
Research you posted

Quote
Tattoos were found in 21% of suicides.

Comparison between 25%-21% -> 19%

The general population attempts suicide at a rate of 4.6%, the transgender community attempts it at a 40% rate.

Comparison 4.6-40-> 900%

If I were to missconstruct your words like you did to me I would say
You claimed 21% of suicide victims had tattoos and that's the same as 18% of transgenders killing themselves?
21% of people who killed themselves compromise 25% of the population (which is actually a net negative and not a positive)
40% of a one group attemptting to killthemselves is the same in your eyes.
But I didn't say that because I think that wasn't the point you were making. At least I hope so.
I was obviously comparing a tenfold difference between your example with this one.

Anyone can fill out a survey and say they are suicidal.

They didn't say they're suicidal.
They said they attempted suicide.
This comes from a far-left organization.

Why does the study on tattoos describe it as "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors".

Probably because prison&gang subcultures are disproportionately engraved with tattoo cultures.
Why does it matter? The difference is statistically irrelevant.

While the transgender study describe it as "increased risk of suicide".

You don't think if 4 out of 10 people attempt to kill themselves and 2 succeed post-surgery. That's not an increased risk of suicide?

See the problem ?

I literally have no idea what your point is.
There's a study that very slightly connects tattoes with violent crime (gangs,prisoners..) and there's a study that proves 4 out of 10 transgenders attempt suicide and 2 succeed, and that's supposed to prove something to me?
I'm sorry, I really don't know what I'm supposed to see here.

We also found that there are some factors that are associated with lower risk of suicide thoughts and
attempts for USTS respondents:

• Respondents with supportive families reported lower prevalence of past-year and lifetime suicide
thoughts and attempts.

• Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had
substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who
wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.

• A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination
statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without
such a statute.

The biggest and probably longest study we quoted a couple of times already from egalitarian Sweden came with those 18% successful suicide rate where if you look at the graph most kill themselves after around ~10ish years from surgery and reaching its peak at around 15 where the mortality rate goes into freefall. Over 80% reported feeling better after surgery. Something changed after 10 years. Only a small part killed themselves immediately post op (you can see a dip in the graph) but the situation is relatively stable the first years after the operation. Everything falls apart after 10 years.
18% of them commit suicide after the operation and the biggest numbers from 10-15 years after the operation according to the egalitarian Swedish longitudinal study with the biggest size recorded yet.

https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-transgender-movement-and-bad-stats-a-debunking-compilation-31760947b382

First of all. Sue Donym isn't a legitimate source on anything.
Besides being obviously biased (https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984) she doesn't have any qualifications on the subject and her opinions shouldn't be quoted, she's not a scientist or a researcher.

That 41% stat is bogus.

Okay, so that's a different study. But the results are almost the same.

You're saying transgenders don't know the difference between self-harm and a suicide attempt. I don't agree with that, I think we should believe people who say they tried to kill themselves because it's associated with a sense of shame and therefore very hard to admit.

Why that doesn't add up is also that there is one suicide for every estimated 25 suicide attempts. (according to the CDC), which includes self-harm.
Given that the CDC has correct data, and 18 out of a 100 transgenders commits suicide after surgery, how many of them actually commit it?
I'd say a lot of them try to hide it because of stigma associated with it and a feeling of shame&weakness generally associated with suicide.
But okay, even if we assume that's true.

How do you explain the 18% successful suicide rate among post-surgery transgenders?
How many suicides do you think end up unsuccessfully? You previously stated some do suicide attempts as a cry for help.

If you say only 40% including self harm attempt suicide and at a 25:1 ratio of succesful suicide attempts it would mean the operation severely damaged their mental health forcing every fifth transgender into suicide.

Why not ?

If you are going to cut your arm off with an axe or have it safely removed by a surgeon - because it causes you mental pain. Why should I stop you ?

The surgeon is the safer option.

The problem is in your head, not in your hand. Wouldn't it be healthier to be cured and keep your hand  

[xtraelv]

Transgender people are only a very small portion of the population.  Giving a very small sample to compare with the general population.

The fact that they want to change their gender means they have a serious change they want to make.

Without looking into other details such as previous mental health and other issues (mentioned earlier) you cannot draw a conclusion from the statistics quoted.

Without looking into all the additional factors any conclusions from statistics are not accurate.

1) Other factors have not been considered.
2) The data sets between the compared statistics are vastly different.



You can't use the statistics quoted by one study and compare it to another study if the sample is different.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10837885

The 21% refers to young people only. So a reference to 25% of the population as tattood is irrelevant because it does not mention the amount of young people that are tattood or even how "young person" was defined.

The same article also states "Fifty-seven percent of young white suicides were tattooed".

So if you want to misquote statistics. A young tattooed white male is more likely to commit suicide than a transgender person.

If those transgender people were all tattooed white males and transformed to females:
1) they may have reduced their suicide risk.
2) delayed committing suicide to later in life.

Without further study none of those statistics are useful in determining whether transitioning was a factor in their suicide.

[iluvbitcoins]

21% of suicides have a tattoo ≠ 21% of tattooed people
You're saying it doesn't matter a quarter of the population has tattooes when saying tattooed people compromise a fifth of the suicide cases?
Will address other things later on.

[xtraelv]

21% of suicides have a tattoo ≠ 21% of tattooed people
You're saying it doesn't matter a quarter of the population has tattooes when saying tattooed people compromise a fifth of the suicide cases?
Will address other things later on.

The article says 21% of suicides by young people are tattoed.

So saying 25% of the population including old people has tattoos is an irrelevant statistic.

Because it includes old people in that statistic.

Suicide deaths young people with tattoos = 21% of deaths by suicide.

Young people + old people with tattoes = 25% of  the population ≠ 25% of young people have tattoos.

It also does not mean that tattoos cause suicides (or that tattoos prevent suicides.)

So rather than a cause - it is a common activity by people more prone to suicidal thoughts.

Other activities like violent death due to homicide, drug overdose and accidents can also alter suicide figures. Some "accidents" and "drug overdoses" are actually suicides. Incarceration can prevent suicides. So if a particular group is incarcerated they may be less likely to have the opportunity to suicide.

[jackg]

It's funny, I was trying to look for if any trans people had written an autobiography and there's a load of books on them wanting equality and they all seem to be under copyright....

Like OK, but you're not getting anywhere of we all have to pay $20 to work out what's up.... Its clearly just a selling point for them...

[xtraelv]

It's funny, I was trying to look for if any trans people had written an autobiography and there's a load of books on them wanting equality and they all seem to be under copyright....

Like OK, but you're not getting anywhere of we all have to pay $20 to work out what's up.... Its clearly just a selling point for them...

Or go to the library...

Or watch a TED talk...
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/this-what-it-feels-like-like-to-be-trans-jvinc/

[Foxpup]

Like OK, but you're not getting anywhere of we all have to pay $20 to work out what's up....

Entitlement much? I suppose mathematicians aren't getting anywhere either by charging upwards of $200 for books about their subject. If you want educational material that someone else has worked hard to produce, sometimes you have to pay for it. What's wrong with that?

Its clearly just a selling point for them...

Huh? No it isn't. Or at least, it's not just a selling point. It's no different from anyone else with an unusual characteristic or uncommon experience writing a book about it. Certainly nobody is putting themselves through all that just to get an interesting story they can sell for profit.

[jackg]

Lol the capitalist agenda 🤣... They should start publishing stuff themselves and not relying on huge publishers to do it for them.


Acc the mathematicians don't make money on their books because people publish better resources for most things online...


Library's a good idea though, I'll have to check their catalog. And thanks for the link.

[Foxpup]

Lol the capitalist agenda 🤣... They should start publishing stuff themselves and not relying on huge publishers to do it for them.

There's no "agenda"; that's just how books are published, regardless of whether the mainstream publishing industry is good or bad. Why should trans authors do things differently just because they're trans?

[iluvbitcoins]

21% of suicides have a tattoo ≠ 21% of tattooed people
You're saying it doesn't matter a quarter of the population has tattooes when saying tattooed people compromise a fifth of the suicide cases?
Will address other things later on.

The article says 21% of suicides by young people are tattoed.

So saying 25% of the population including old people has tattoos is an irrelevant statistic.

Because it includes old people in that statistic.

Suicide deaths young people with tattoos = 21% of deaths by suicide.

Young people + old people with tattoes = 25% of  the population ≠ 25% of young people have tattoos.

It also does not mean that tattoos cause suicides (or that tattoos prevent suicides.)

So rather than a cause - it is a common activity by people more prone to suicidal thoughts.

Other activities like violent death due to homicide, drug overdose and accidents can also alter suicide figures. Some "accidents" and "drug overdoses" are actually suicides. Incarceration can prevent suicides. So if a particular group is incarcerated they may be less likely to have the opportunity to suicide.

Do you seriously believe older people make up a bigger proportion of tattooed people than young generations do?
If 25% of the total population is tattooed, I'd assume the numbers are simmilar or larger for younger generations.
Even if they were double less, it's still not comparable to the transgender tenfold case, it would be only double.
You know what I'm speaking makes sense but you don't want to make sense, you want to be aligned with your belief, so you purposely make me look up stats although you know they're true.
If you're going to force me to look up everything that's common sense, I will.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/more-americans-have-tattoos-today

Those under 55 years old are twice as likely to have at least one tattoo. Forty percent of those ages 18-34 and 36% of those ages 35-54 have at least one tattoo, while the same is true for only sixteen percent of those 55 years old and older. Additionally, those without a college degree are slightly more likely to have a tattoo or tattoos than those with a college degree (33% and 27% respectively

Other sources

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2008/12/09/tattooed-gen-nexters/

Gen Nexters, Americans in the 18-25 age bracket, are not afraid to express themselves through their appearance and tattoos are the most popular form of self-expression — more than one-in-three (36%) now has one

36% of the population of the 18-25 age bracket compromise 57% of the young suicide victims.
This puts them at 25:100 000 odds of successfully comitting suicide.

That's the same to you as 40% of A group attempting suicide and 18% succeeding?
These are 4:10 for attempted suicide and 2:10 for successful suicide.

25:100k and 2:10 is not comparable.
Transgender people need help.  And not the enabling type of "help" which causes an 18% successful suicide rate post operation.

[iluvbitcoins]

You can't use the statistics quoted by one study and compare it to another study if the sample is different.

1) Other factors have not been considered.
2) The data sets between the compared statistics are vastly different.

Are you serious? You did that, not me.
And when I pointed out obvious flaws in your statements you say you can't compare 2 studies with different samples you brought up  

[paxmao]

Transgenders cut their dick off and turn the skin inside out so it resembles a vagina.
41% of them commit suicide after the surgery.

Source. I mean, a credible source for that stat.

[iluvbitcoins]

Source. I mean, a credible source for that stat.

National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) 2015

If you read the thread, you'll find at least 2 sources on transgender self-reported suicide attempts and 1 on post-op suicides in Sweden.
One of them is the first result.
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=transgender+suicide+41%25

[franky1]

the only issues i have is the pronouns some come up with are so non descript that it actually provokes drama by forcing people to ask more about it

for instance get rid of the 'they' 'them' pronoun.
and find ones of true relevance

i know things have become derogatory to use nowadays but.. 'he-she' or 'shemale' were amptly descriptive and useful for born male now female.. and the opposite

even things like female with female genitals that wants to identify as male=tomboy

as for the people that pretend they dont want to be defined . yet go out of their way to cause drama by dressing a certain way which would indicate their desired identity. to then argue and fight and moan if someone brings it up or  doesnt use their prefered pronouns of 'them' 'they' 'strawberry' 'helicopter'

it actually becomes derogatory to say. 'them' in many cases.
infact someone went up to a person of coloured skin who was trans. and when using the term 'them' the coloured person created drama about how the other person was creating racial drama and started to go on a rant about how the coloured person was being persecuted and treated like their slave ancestors and not being defined as a human.

it all becomes rediculous drama provoking crap when people are trying to pretend to be something they are not.
im all for people wanting to be unique and open to identify themselves as how they feel. but dont just be a drone lemming following some social style craze of the 'them' 'they' pronoun. it dont make anyone special if you start conversations with 'i  identify as the pronouns...' especially if the pronouns are not unique or descriptive
(by this i mean the trend followers. not the actual transcommunity)


im male. born male, will always be male and i like women. thus i say me.i.he.him (the traditional pronouns)
but just to rebuttal those trend folower drones who just want some attention seeking of a latest craze without understanding whats really going on biologically, psychologically... i tell them i identify as a helicopter, chopper and swirly whirly bird... and just see them try getting those pronouns into conversations without messing up
just to prove a point

[philipma1957]

Code:

[quote author=iluvbitcoins link=topic=5222701.msg53781085#msg53781085 date=1580959847]
[quote]That is terrible misuse of statistics.

Suicide and attempted suicide is not the same.[/quote]

I'm sorry but you're the one terribly misconstruing the points here.
You bolded a part that had nothing to do with the first part.

[quote]25% is tattoed.
Research you posted

Quote
Tattoos were found in 21% of suicides.[/quote]

Comparison between 25%-21% -> 19%

[quote]
The general population attempts suicide at a rate of 4.6%, the transgender community attempts it at a 40% rate.[/quote]

Comparison 4.6-40-> 900%

If I were to missconstruct your words like you did to me I would say
You claimed 21% of suicide victims had tattoos and that's the same as 18% of transgenders killing themselves?
21% of people who killed themselves compromise 25% of the population (which is actually a net negative and not a positive)
40% of a one group attemptting to killthemselves is the same in your eyes.
But I didn't say that because I think that wasn't the point you were making. At least I hope so.
I was obviously comparing a tenfold difference between your example with this one.

[quote]Anyone can fill out a survey and say they are suicidal.[/quote]

They didn't say they're suicidal.
They said they attempted suicide.
This comes from a far-left organization.

[quote]Why does the study on tattoos describe it as "associated with markers of high-risk behaviors".[/quote]

Probably because prison&gang subcultures are disproportionately engraved with tattoo cultures.
Why does it matter? The difference is statistically irrelevant.

[quote]While the transgender study describe it as "increased risk of suicide".[/quote]
You don't think if 4 out of 10 people attempt to kill themselves and 2 succeed [u]post-surgery.[/u] That's not an increased risk of suicide?

[quote]See the problem ? [/quote]
I literally have no idea what your point is.
There's a study that very slightly connects tattoes with violent crime (gangs,prisoners..) and there's a study that proves 4 out of 10 transgenders attempt suicide and 2 succeed, and that's supposed to prove something to me?
I'm sorry, I really don't know what I'm supposed to see here.

[quote]We also found that there are some factors that are associated with lower risk of suicide thoughts and
attempts for USTS respondents:

• Respondents with supportive families reported lower prevalence of past-year and lifetime suicide
thoughts and attempts.

• Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had
substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who
wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.

• A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination
statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without
such a statute.[/quote]

The biggest and probably longest study we quoted a couple of times already from egalitarian Sweden came with those 18% successful suicide rate where if you look at the graph most kill themselves after around ~10ish years from surgery and reaching its peak at around 15 where the mortality rate goes into freefall. Over 80% reported feeling better after surgery. Something changed after 10 years. Only a small part killed themselves immediately post op (you can see a dip in the graph) but the situation is relatively stable the first years after the operation. Everything falls apart after 10 years.
18% of them commit suicide after the operation and the biggest numbers from 10-15 years after the operation according to the egalitarian Swedish longitudinal study with the biggest size recorded yet.

Code:

[quote]https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-transgender-movement-and-bad-stats-a-debunking-compilation-31760947b382[/quote]

First of all. Sue Donym isn't a legitimate source on anything.
Besides being obviously biased (https://medium.com/@sue.donym1984) she doesn't have any qualifications on the subject and her opinions shouldn't be quoted, she's not a scientist or a researcher.

[quote]That 41% stat is bogus.[/quote]

Okay, so that's a different study. But the results are almost the same.

You're saying transgenders don't know the difference between self-harm and a suicide attempt. I don't agree with that, I think we should believe people who say they tried to kill themselves because it's associated with a sense of shame and therefore very hard to admit.

Why that doesn't add up is also that there is one suicide for every estimated 25 suicide attempts. (according to the CDC), which includes self-harm.
Given that the CDC has correct data, and 18 out of a 100 transgenders commits suicide after surgery, how many of them actually commit it?
I'd say a lot of them try to hide it because of stigma associated with it and a feeling of shame&weakness generally associated with suicide.
But okay, even if we assume that's true.

How do you explain the [u]18% successful suicide rate among post-surgery transgenders[/u]?
How many suicides do you think end up unsuccessfully? You previously stated some do suicide attempts as a cry for help.

If you say only 40% including self harm attempt suicide and at a 25:1 ratio of succesful suicide attempts it would mean the operation severely damaged their mental health forcing every fifth transgender into suicide.

[quote]Why not ?

If you are going to cut your arm off with an axe or have it safely removed by a surgeon - because it causes you mental pain. Why should I stop you ?

The surgeon is the safer option.[/quote]

The problem is in your head, not in your hand. Wouldn't it be healthier to be cured and keep your hand  ???
[/quote]

So do the surgery 20-25.

Docs do a good job.  10-15 Years of solid fucking and sucking with the well made body.

you would now be older with a womans body which often means it is harder to get sex.

thus fuck it may as well be dead.


a willing 20 year old guy may have trouble finding people to have sex with.

a willing 20 year old girl may find having sex partners is easy to do.

ten to fifteen years and it gets old.

[iluvbitcoins]

It's only a question of time when Social services are going to take your children away from you because they played with dolls and you refused to send them to sex reassingment surgery.

Sounds paranoid?
It's already happening.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6817935/Autistic-boy-taken-care-school-reports-parents-refusing-allow-sex-change-treatment.html