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Author Topic: Can supplements be bad for you?  (Read 190 times)
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February 04, 2020, 07:54:24 PM
 #1

I keep seeing vegan propaganda about people being able to get all the nutrients they need from supplements and it's much healthier or something because most people are deficient.

However, this isn't backed by the NHS or NIH who both claim that most people get the right amount of different vitamins and minerals. The NHS and NIH both go as far as to state that a long term use of supplements could actually be harmful to the body. I'm guessing the doctors have it right but since both don't cite sources it's difficult for me to work it out.

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February 04, 2020, 08:08:28 PM
 #2

I believe that the natural, growing food we eat doesn't have enough nutritional value for the fiber. In addition, there probably should be more humic acids in the plants, and especially fulvic acid.

Juicing is a good idea, but some of the fiber needs to be consumed, as well.

Supplements might be good to a certain extent, but one can easily overdue it. Researchers are finding out that over-supplementation can produce imbalances in the body that are harmful, until balanced with other supplements that work synergistically in nature.

Probably the best that a person can do is to eat small amounts of all kinds of foods, many of which are not grown locally. Distant (not local) plants often have different chemicals that the body needs.

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February 04, 2020, 09:28:52 PM
Merited by Foxpup (4), EFS (3)
 #3

If you eat a healthy and varied (meat+fruit+vegetables+grains) diet, not getting too many of your calories from sugar or refined grains, then your diet is likely not to be so deficient in anything as to cause serious problems. If you track your diet, then you might think at first that you're deficient in a lot of micronutrients, but this is often just because your source of nutrition info doesn't have all of the micronutrient data for your foods. You have to use the USDA Standard Reference database for everything you eat in a day in order to get a complete picture. This is pretty difficult, but it's worthwhile to do for a few days to get some idea of your nutrient intake. (On FoodData Central, uncheck "branded" on the left after searching. Use closest approximations for things not in the Database. Note that many zero-calorie things like tap water, tea, coffee, and table salt contribute nutrients to your diet.)

Most people will be under the DRI in a few areas -- exactly which depending on diet --, though this won't necessarily ever lead to noticeable health issues. I'd guess that 90% of people are below the DRI on potassium, omega-3, choline, and fiber. None of these things tend to be in multivitamins in appreciable quantities, though...

Vegans must supplement B12, which is almost impossible to get enough of from vegan sources. In the US, milk is becoming less popular in favor of plant milks, and this could lead to calcium deficiency in some cases. Even though iodine is added to table salt, iodized salt is not used in packaged food, it's not that common in food otherwise, and I suspect that low-level iodine deficiency may be common.

I'm skeptical of supplements that contain a bunch of random herbs. Maybe <herb X> has some tenuous evidence for doing something good when consumed as an herbal tea every now and then, but who knows what taking some lowest-cost "filler" form of it daily for months/years will do...

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February 04, 2020, 10:45:19 PM
 #4

Supplements are essentially like any other food, except often concentrated. Certain foods people react differently toward or are allergic to. Some make you fat, some give you energy, some are good for your skin, it is more of a matter of what nutrients you need at any given time. Calling a supplement bad for you isn't a clear metric. What might be bad for you may be good for some one else. It is best to just see what works best for you and pay attention to the results.


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February 04, 2020, 10:53:12 PM
 #5

One always have to be careful and not just go for things because they sound healthy. Vitamins are great right? But many years ago they found pounds of undigested vitamins in the gut of someone.

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February 05, 2020, 02:03:38 AM
 #6

many vitamins are made from industrial chemicals not vegetable extracts. or the process of vegetable extraction of minerals involves industrial chemicals

and yes if a vegan wanted to eat enough iron, theyd need to eat a kg of veg a day. then drink a kg of water and then a few more kg of other vegetables to try getting the other minerals.

if a vegan wanted to be healthy they would end up eating far more weight than then can excrete. .. basically vegans end up starving themselves.

its like the stupidity that people think smoking weed is the same as vaping cbd oils..

..
anyone who promotes supliments. should instead just tell people to eat more variety. because in many countries, supliments are not graded/monitored/regulated the sme way food or drugs are. and yes you cn end up ingesting more chemicals from protein supliments than you can from say chlorinated chicken

same goes for vaping. people are dying in years, where as smoking usually took decades.
but stupid 'fitness' people think they know better.

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February 05, 2020, 02:19:50 AM
 #7

Consume supplement is not bad for people who need to support their activity every day because, with the supplement, they can have more energy to do every task that they need to finish every day. But some people don't need to consume the supplement because they feel that their body, mind, and soul can handle their activity every day and they don't have a problem with that. Maybe they will consume the supplement if their body really needs more power to help their body or their body get drops because of something.

I see some people especially my friends don't consume the supplement because they can work with good, and if they feel they are tired, they will take a rest for a while before they continue their work. The important thing here is we need to balance our life with work, have time to get rest for a while, eat something to get the power, so we don't have a problem in our busy days. I am not consuming the supplement because I don't think that is good for myself except if I feel that my body needs that supplement. But yes, I think consuming the supplement in a long time can harm our body because we don't know what react that might our body get in the future.
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February 05, 2020, 02:27:56 AM
 #8

It's not that supplements are bad for you per say, it's that most people eat a balanced diet already -- in one way or another they're getting all of their vitamins and minerals without having to take some pill.

It's very important for these companies to peddle the fact that you need your vitamins and that you're not currently getting enough. Most of this is honestly fueled by parents telling their children to eating their vitamins, vitamins companies selling a product that literally looks like gummy bears and is sugary so kids like it, and is just passed down from generation to generation now.

If the product was so necessary, like some sort of pill that you take to survive, there'd be no reason for the companies to pour money into licensing to make their vitamins / supplements have spongebob or some character on them. It's bullshit and not necessary to most people.

If you need a supplement of some sort, it should be doctor recommended.




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February 05, 2020, 03:36:20 AM
Merited by Foxpup (2)
 #9

and yes if a vegan wanted to eat enough iron, theyd need to eat a kg of veg a day. then drink a kg of water and then a few more kg of other vegetables to try getting the other minerals.

Veganism is pointless IMO, and vegans who don't do research on nutrition are probably at a higher risk of deficiencies. But except for B12, vegans can meet all of their DRIs it without eating a truckload of vegetables per day. For example, you need 677g of ground beef = 1558 calories to get 100% DV of iron, whereas you can get the same 100% DV with:
 - 2.8 cups of cooked spinach = 504g = 116 calories; OR
 - 2 cups of cooked soybeans = 350g = 603 calories; OR
 - 2.7 cups of cooked lentils = 541g = 617 calories; etc.
A vegan is probably going to be eating a lot of that sort of stuff anyway just to get enough calories.

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February 05, 2020, 04:33:32 AM
Last edit: February 05, 2020, 04:45:28 AM by franky1
 #10

and yes if a vegan wanted to eat enough iron, theyd need to eat a kg of veg a day. then drink a kg of water and then a few more kg of other vegetables to try getting the other minerals.

Veganism is pointless IMO, and vegans who don't do research on nutrition are probably at a higher risk of deficiencies. But except for B12, vegans can meet all of their DRIs it without eating a truckload of vegetables per day. For example, you need 677g of ground beef = 1558 calories to get 100% DV of iron, whereas you can get the same 100% DV with:
 - 2.8 cups of cooked spinach = 504g = 116 calories; OR
 - 2 cups of cooked soybeans = 350g = 603 calories; OR
 - 2.7 cups of cooked lentils = 541g = 617 calories; etc.
A vegan is probably going to be eating a lot of that sort of stuff anyway just to get enough calories.

you might want to do a bit more maths.
hint.
the iron in spinach is not absorbed the same as beef.. you actually need 1kg of spinach to meet just the same equivelent of beef
..
also funny how you picked ground beef. which is usually the fatty mix of different cuts..
take beef shoulder stake.. thats 2.5mg iron /100g weight 133kcal
take your ground beef... thats 2.5mg iron /100gweight 250kcal

kinda funny how you want it to be like eating one large 1lb burger is a whole days iron and 3/5ths of calories..
yet eating 1lb shoulder steak is only 700kcal

and like i said with spinach you actually need 1kg of it to have enough absorbed iron.
(ill give you a hint cows have more stomachs than humans so cows absorb iron better than humans.)

yep so eating 1kg of spinach just for iron.. is only 230kcal.. meaning you then have to eat a crap load of other foods for the other couple thousand

..
best diet is a balanced diet.
as the brits call.. a 'meat and 2 veg' diet (its been around for hundreds of years)

i truly find it funny when people dont really do the deeper research or try to tweak numbers to make one thing sound bad..
i have never seen mcdonalds sell a 1lb burger so have no clue of a rational reason why you chose 1lb of groundbeef. but i can guess

by the way. good luck going to the toilet after all the leafy greens and nuts and stuff..

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February 05, 2020, 06:58:52 AM
Merited by suchmoon (7), Foxpup (4)
 #11

I keep seeing vegan propaganda
I'll start with this bit Smiley Vegan propaganda annoys the hell out of me. I am vegan, but that is my choice. If you are not vegan, that is your choice. I have zero right to presume to tell other people what to eat. You want to eat meat and dairy? Absolutely fine with me. The propaganda is irritating, sententious, repetitive and fundamentally counterproductive. If your aim is to get people to stop eating meat, you're not going to achieve it by lecturing them or taking the moral high ground. Some vegans are idiots and attention-seekers (but not all).


Veganism is pointless IMO
Depends why you're doing it though, surely? I don't want to eat animals or products of the dairy industry; I'm not doing it for health benefits. On the subject of health benefits though, the World Health Organisation has classed processed meats, especially bacon and ham, as class 1 carcinogens...


Vegans must supplement B12, which is almost impossible to get enough of from vegan sources. In the US, milk is becoming less popular in favor of plant milks, and this could lead to calcium deficiency in some cases. Even though iodine is added to table salt, iodized salt is not used in packaged food, it's not that common in food otherwise, and I suspect that low-level iodine deficiency may be common.
True about B12 in a natural vegan diet, however here in the UK most soya milk is fortified with B12, and all (as far as I'm aware) with calcium. In the UK, if you are getting B12 from soya milk, iodine is the big problem. We do not have iodised salt. Some soya milks have iodine, but many do not. There are other natural sources, seaweeds for example. Also there are of course supplements.
Iodine is vital. There is plenty of it in seafood, but weirdly for a tiny island nation where you're never more than 3 miles (or something :p ) from the sea, the UK has a historic problem with lack of iodine - goitres from hypothyroidism brought on by iodine deficiency were called 'Derbyshire neck', after the county in the middle of the country where you are just too far from the coast to get regular seafood.


best diet is a balanced diet.
as the brits call.. a 'meat and 2 veg' diet (its been around for hundreds of years)
Agreed. Balanced diet is certainly the best. But it can be achieved as a vegan, so long as you are careful about B12 and iodine as above, and so long as you make sure you're not missing out on other stuff. There are plenty of vegan meat substitutes out there.


A vegan is probably going to be eating a lot of that sort of stuff anyway just to get enough calories.
Ha! If you're the sort of vegan who forages from hedgerows and wears a face mask so they don't accidentally inhale bugs, then maybe. I however am a conoisseur connesuir connissieur devourer of vegan junk food, where calorific intake is certainly not a problem.


people being able to get all the nutrients they need from supplements and it's much healthier
To return belatedly to the original point (sorry), some people (including vegans in certain situations) might need certain supplements for certain deficiencies. In general however, it's far healthier to eat a balanced diet, as franky said. Just balanced diet, enough exercise, don't smoke or drink (or at least not much), and you're fine. Supplements are the go-to quick-fix of modern culture, and are not in general a good idea. Different people have different diets and will need different vitamins in different amounts. A pill that dumps huge quantities of everything into your system is not a good idea. Vitamin overdose is a thing, particularly with A and D which are fat-soluble.
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February 05, 2020, 02:32:56 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2020, 03:02:15 PM by jackg
 #12

Since you took iron as an example, 100g of corn flakes contain 53% of your RDI.

I'd dismiss RDI on being 100% fact as I don't think some of it is reasonable. (we were looking at lethal doses for chemicals and calcium becomes deadly at 1000g - apparently). I imagine that's my entire evening meal in calcium which would be very unreasonable and thus a useless piece of data (I'm sure you'd die before then anyway).



My table salt contains sodium chloride and sodium amide (there's something before the amide but I opened the container upside down ).



Not going to argue with the meat and two veg but it's a little wrong.
What no one will mention from the UK is that you need a nice thick gravy or apple sauce and you'll also need something to soak it up when you're done. And the meat and two veg also assumes the main event be potatoes (a selection of roast, mash and potentially wedges too)...




My tetley is 3 kcal also per bag Grin

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February 05, 2020, 06:45:28 PM
Last edit: February 08, 2020, 05:27:36 AM by franky1
 #13

Since you took iron as an example, 100g of corn flakes contain 53% of your RDI.

I'd dismiss RDI on being 100% fact as I don't think some of it is reasonable.

each person is different. for instance some have a natural biological defect that makes them naturally iron deficiant and so they need alot more iron intake than others.. and in more cases than people realise there are many forms of iron and although cornflakes says it has 53% of rdi.. thats based on RDI grams average. and how many grams they sprinkle into the recipe. its NOT considering the type of iron. its not considering how much iron actually gets absorbed nor the bit as i said about how much iron the particular person needs.

take the leafy green (spinach) iron vs the already absorbed and converted iron in beef.. humans absorb beef based iron alot better than leafy green iron. hense needing twice as much leafy green.
and hense why cows have more stomachs to make them more efficient leafy green iron absorbers compared to humans.

heck sticking with cornflakes. did you know when they dry out and squash and cook the corn into flakes. they then have to add in sugars to make it taste nice again.
its why for instead 'frosty flakes' are sugar cane added and you dont have the corn starch. you would be so surprise at the different types of natural sugars and minerals removed in processing and then added added back later..
yep 'fortified' = artificially added in processing  

even the stuff about 'carbohydrates of sugars' most dont know that solid sugars (candy) absorb slower and differently than liquidised sugar.
and then theres the different types that also react differently. like lactose(milk based sugar) fructose(fruit based) and dextrose..

its why. if you eat an orange. you dont get the same instant spike as you would from the same single orange squeezed into juice... yep orange juice is different than orange fruit. but RDI wise its stupidly treated the same.

and its why them 'vegan health freaks' always say to juice everything. because if you had to eat all the minerals in solid fruit and veg form. you would get bloated, gain weight and have issues in the toilet.

anyway to get back to the topic of supliments
although some supliments are more the precise minerals without the leafy green parts. thus less digestion/absorption variance. the type of mineral is different. some are industrial chemical rather than natural extracts.
some are not recognise by the gut as what they should be,
an some of the binders used and favourings used to make it appealing and tasty. can have issues too.


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February 05, 2020, 09:15:03 PM
 #14

Since you took iron as an example, 100g of corn flakes contain 53% of your RDI.

I'd dismiss RDI on being 100% fact as I don't think some of it is reasonable.
Everyone is different and RDI is just a finger in the air, about okay on average, kind of a thing. A 6ft obese 30 year old man is going to need more than a 5ft6 skinny 80 year old man. And then absorption is as important as intake. Some vitamins are water soluble (C and most of the Bs), and any excess you p1ss right out, so that's okay, but the fat-soluble ones you need to be careful with (A, D, E and K - although I don't think there's any evidence that excess K causes problems). So you can certainly absorb too much of some stuff through supplements. And then absorption varies by individual, some people for example coeliacs need to take more in certain cases because they just can't absorb a high enough quantity from regular intake. And absorption also varies with whatever else you're eating, for example iron is much more readily absorbed when it's accompanied by vitamin C.

My tetley is 3 kcal also per bag Grin
That's only if you eat the whole bag and all of its contents, right?
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February 05, 2020, 10:02:34 PM
 #15

These products seduce young people with the promise of accelerating muscle mass gain. However, using it on your own can have serious health consequences.
Teenagers, especially those born in the digital age, want everything for yesterday. It is not for nothing that many of them wish to exchange the child's body for a more muscular or defined version in the shortest possible time. Stepping into the gym, they are an easy audience for sports supplements, especially those that increase muscle mass, such as whey protein, BCAA and creatine.
In general, the eagerness for quick results of muscle mass gain and the need to overcome their own limits, increasing their own performance, make athletes not think about the long-term results. "Excess hormones such as testosterone, for example, can decrease erection capacity, cause pimples, cause hair to grow around the body - facts that can bring reflexes for the rest of life."
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February 05, 2020, 10:47:14 PM
 #16

My tetley is 3 kcal also per bag Grin
That's only if you eat the whole bag and all of its contents, right?


No, it's 1kcal per 100ml of "infusion". PG tips were 4kj afaik (4/7kcal).



The corn flakes just gives me an excuse to buy the cheap stuff from lidl then, that's a win win 🤣 (they're not as tasty but they are 96% maize and still are pretty good with milk).

And I'm not sure how accurate they have to be with their values but I assume it's still the 95% purity on most things (in terms of iron content).



@hammasan yeah I think that sort of advertising here has been banned for a while and that was almost definitely the reason...



I thought the general rule of thumb was that 90% of the nutrients are taken in an 10% are left to turn into shit... Its why animals don't like to eat human dung and why humans don't eat each others (well its one of the reasons anyway).

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February 06, 2020, 01:16:18 AM
 #17

The corn flakes just gives me an excuse to buy the cheap stuff from lidl then, that's a win win 🤣 (they're not as tasty but they are 96% maize and still are pretty good with milk).

And I'm not sure how accurate they have to be with their values but I assume it's still the 95% purity on most things (in terms of iron content).

if its the cheap stuff thats not been fortified. dont expect high iron count.
theres a reason kellogs gets fortified because the processing of the corn actually removes the natural minerals so they put some back in.
if the cheap stuff doesnt have any fortification.. then your just eating cardboard

just keep in mind WHY something needs to be fortified
just keep in mind WHY vegan dieters need supliments.
because they are not getting the minerals naturally

when i see a vegan and they say they having a healthy diet .. but then slip up that food is modified, fortified, added nutrients and supliments.. then obviously they are not having a healthy diet. because a health diet doesnt need addatives.

its things like many foods. if you need to ad something to it to make it taste better, make you feel better. then its not the main food thats doing its job .. its whatever you are adding thats doing it

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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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February 08, 2020, 01:39:36 AM
 #18

Supplements can absolutely be bad for you... like if they stay in the cupboard for 10 years, and then you eat them.

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February 16, 2020, 06:39:06 PM
 #19

Realistically a lot of "health" focused companies market that the individual lacks in the amount of vitamins they need from food, so they offer some "magic" tablet to help it. We don't really need 100% of vitamins daily. There people who need vitamins for vitamins for medical reasons, but aslong we consume a good amount of green vegetables and varied fruits we'll be fine.

I recently starting taking Vitamin D and a Fish Oil supplement. It did make a remarkable difference on my skin. I was thinking that I was lacking in Vitamin D and B12 in the first place so this was a case that Vitamins helped.
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February 16, 2020, 11:22:57 PM
 #20

I keep seeing vegan propaganda about people being able to get all the nutrients they need from supplements and it's much healthier or something because most people are deficient.

However, this isn't backed by the NHS or NIH who both claim that most people get the right amount of different vitamins and minerals. The NHS and NIH both go as far as to state that a long term use of supplements could actually be harmful to the body. I'm guessing the doctors have it right but since both don't cite sources it's difficult for me to work it out.

I'ma make this self mod, I don't plan to delete anything but if somethings too spammy I reserve the right to delete it. I'm after an intellectual debate, I won't delete differing views especially if they're empirically backed.

These two ideas are not inconsistent. A vegan or anyone else that regulates food by a rule set for some philosophical concept has ZERO certainty of getting all essential nutrients.

The typical reality for most people is just eat whatever they want, that may lead to obesity and other issues, but not a deficiency of essential minerals and vitamins.
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