We were all heading to cheap bitcoins, until the manipulator stepped in

[bittenbob]

Seriously, are you guys not thinking this through?  Bitcoin will not be stable at $1 (or any price)!  What, do you honestly think that we'll drop to $1 and then, THEN, the manipulator will spend his $200,000 without causing significant volatility?  I'm mean, seriously guys, come on.

I'm beginning to think that when some of you say that you want bitcoin to be stable what you mean is that you want its value to constantly go up.

LOL. Good point proudhon.

Though I do think we can achieve a stable bitcoin, but ONLY when there is real commercial activity in the bitcoin economy. When people NEED to buy bitcoins to obtain goods or services, we will have real demand. So if the price falls, people will buy a LOT for the future needs. That is true stability and we will get there eventually.

If we want stability we all need to invest in bitcoin businesses, buy as many goods with bitcoin as we can, and use it as it was intended to be used rather than all this money being pumped into a casino game. If you don't want to use bitcoin, or don't believe that it will be accepted anywhere in the future, there is very little point in trading it. Just liquidate your holdings and give the coins to people who WILL use them properly.

Im still waiting for someone to create a pool to do some processing such as Folding @ Home for bitcoins. This is a real commerce and could easily be accomodated. CHOP CHOP People!

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[trogdorjw73]

Did anyone else see that big buy rally up to 2.25 then fall back down to 2.18?

Yes, and then that order apparently disappeared. WTF? It's not showing up now, but I know I saw the price spike up to $2.25. Perhaps the manipulator is MtGox and they inadvertently queued an order, only to roll it back right after it started executing?

Update: Now it suddenly showed up again. Weird. Maybe it's just MtGoxLive not rendering properly for a short period (which would hardly be surprising).

[mjcmurfy]

QFT. How is what is happening BTC *not* finding it's balance? To suggest that the manipulators of the market sit back and watch and do nothing with their cash and/or BTC is naive at best, rampant stupidity at worst. It's like saying, "Hey, Microsoft -- tell all of your major share holders to never sell any of their shares so that the market can determine the real value of MSFT stock." While we're at it, will all of you people with USD stop buying or selling everything so that the market can determine the real value of USD? News flash: the manipulators (e.g. large BTC holders) are part of the market, and they will always exist. Why don't we just say instead, "Mr. Manipulator, we're jealous of the fact that you have a shload of BTC and USD to play around with on MtGox; will you please redistribute all of your wealth to the rest of us so that we can be equal?"

Great post! I also think that a lot of the whining going on around here is due to to this 'jealousy'. If any of you had that level of capital, you would all be doing it too. You cannot criticize the 'manipulator' for wanting to protect his own interests. You are all doing it yourselves, albeit on a much smaller level. He is allowing us to find the bottom slowly and carefully, as opposed to the madness which would otherwise ensue if he didn't.

[tvbcof]

...
I also doubt very seriously that the real market participants pay any attention whatsoever to what a few yahoos (myself very much included) write on these boards.
...

If I was manipulating such a large volume of currency I would be on these boards trying to spread as much misinformation as possible...
...

Well that's probably why you are not a manipulator.  Someone who gets into the position to be one probably didn't get that way by wasting their time on things such as these forums.

The real market participants are surely keenly interested in the disposition of their counterparts, but they are unlikely to glean any useful information here.

[gewure]

i don't have a heart for a heartless creature - i really doubt he sees himself as noble knight, trying desperate to save bitcoin (from what? worth decline? with manipulation? lol..) out of idealistic reasons.

its just someone trying to make the most money he can, no idealism. just the same as most people who invest in bitcoin. and you should also think like that if you want to profit from bitcoins... so i have not much mercy left for him/her. he is equaly noble to everyone on this forum. even i am more idealistic then him, cause i don't deny i am SHORT at the moment on bitcoin and want it to drop. but i also think there is offcourse a lowest point, but the recent manipulation make me believe $2 is really not the lowest point - if it were, why does it need sooooo huge manipulation, to preserve it?! -> $2 is not the low point!

Mr. Manipulator, if you are noble and want to help bitcoin, let it find it's REAL balance first. then you can still buy an make your million$,or whatever.

Seriously, are you guys not thinking this through?  Bitcoin will not be stable at $1 (or any price)!  What, do you honestly think that we'll drop to $1 and then, THEN, the manipulator will spend his $200,000 without causing significant volatility?  I'm mean, seriously guys, come on.

I'm beginning to think that when some of you say that you want bitcoin to be stable what you mean is that you want its value to constantly go up.

you are a wise guy. that is exactly what i mean with "stable": anything but not decreasing in worth all the time
..so "stable" could also be a price, which is slowly climbing, offcourse you got my point? stable is the moment, when the market is clearly no more longterm-bear but not yet longterm bull. just stable. just no more loosing worth.

[gewure]

QFT. How is what is happening BTC *not* finding it's balance? To suggest that the manipulators of the market sit back and watch and do nothing with their cash and/or BTC is naive at best, rampant stupidity at worst. It's like saying, "Hey, Microsoft -- tell all of your major share holders to never sell any of their shares so that the market can determine the real value of MSFT stock." While we're at it, will all of you people with USD stop buying or selling everything so that the market can determine the real value of USD? News flash: the manipulators (e.g. large BTC holders) are part of the market, and they will always exist. Why don't we just say instead, "Mr. Manipulator, we're jealous of the fact that you have a shload of BTC and USD to play around with on MtGox; will you please redistribute all of your wealth to the rest of us so that we can be equal?"

Great post! I also think that a lot of the whining going on around here is due to to this 'jealousy'. If any of you had that level of capital, you would all be doing it too. You cannot criticize the 'manipulator' for wanting to protect his own interests. You are all doing it yourselves, albeit on a much smaller level. He is allowing us to find the bottom slowly and carefully, as opposed to the madness which would otherwise ensue if he didn't.

since i posted alot in similiar threads i feel beeing spoken to, partialy.
but i think some got me totally wrong: i am not questioning nor whining about the manipulator and him not beeing rational. he does what he believes serves him best, offcourse. and everybody inside here does the same, offcourse.

what i questioned was that some of you now take the price as balanced, clearly denying the obvious information that this walls can and probably will disappear as fast as they came: in about 20 seconds.

the comparison with microsoft lacks so much, i don't really know where to begin. maybe at the point, that microsoft sells stocks, not crypto currency? that there is an virtually unlimited amout of stocks they can give out? that the fucking company is made out of many people, not just one manipulator? that manipulations trough microsoft happens with the knowledge of nearly every shareholder? that there are annual meetings where the shareholder discuss if they should "manipulate"? that there is actual property behind the M$-stocks, not like bitcoin?!..

in my native language there is this slogan: not everything that is partly wrong is an comparison

the thing is: trying to psychologically manipulate the price above a level of natural balance (fake walls are NO real demand! he does NOT want people to sell into them, that is the point of manipulation!) that obvious will only delay the inevitable. regardless what happens, the market will find its price. thats what i want to say.

[kjlimo]

lol, me beeing the manipulator

i have 40 BTC leveraged short on bitcoinica.. *SELFSERVINGBASTARDIAM*

it is obvious that the manipulator did not pull the price DOWN but struggles very hard to hold him above the reals market balance (which i think would be about $1.8 at the moment). the longer he does not let bitcoin drop to its real market value, the more he damages the whole economy.

finally bitcoin will go up at some point. and i am pointing this out in various posts, yes: the faster it will reach this point, the faster it will go up again. so if you (same as me) think of a price between 1$ and lets say 5$ for 2012 - than hope that my "wish" becomes true.

btw: i doubt that the price will ever go lower than 1$. cause 1$ is such a psychological number... i for myself will never bet short on a price bellow 1$. i think the all-time-low-after-the-bubble will be like $1.0019 or something, than a huge outbreak to.. i don't know

Replace $1 with $2 and that's how I've been feeling for weeks...

Things change

[kjlimo]

lol, me beeing the manipulator

i have 40 BTC leveraged short on bitcoinica.. *SELFSERVINGBASTARDIAM*

it is obvious that the manipulator did not pull the price DOWN but struggles very hard to hold him above the reals market balance (which i think would be about $1.8 at the moment). the longer he does not let bitcoin drop to its real market value, the more he damages the whole economy.

finally bitcoin will go up at some point. and i am pointing this out in various posts, yes: the faster it will reach this point, the faster it will go up again. so if you (same as me) think of a price between 1$ and lets say 5$ for 2012 - than hope that my "wish" becomes true.

btw: i doubt that the price will ever go lower than 1$. cause 1$ is such a psychological number... i for myself will never bet short on a price bellow 1$. i think the all-time-low-after-the-bubble will be like $1.0019 or something, than a huge outbreak to.. i don't know

The negative market sentiment is undoubtedly largely focused on The Manipulator^© and what everyone has finally realized is the idiotic last gasp of a desperate individual who's seemingly driven to white knight for a price point that nobody else needs (or wants, for that matter) to support. As it stands, the 10 Thps of block miners is vastly oversubscribed, and we need to see a real balancing, where upwards of 30-40% of miners go offline, and where difficulty drops to the 700-800k range MAX.

If you have a heart, you should feel compassion for The Manipulator^©, and understand that in his mind, he is a noble knight of old, defending your liberty and freedoms from the oppressive masons.

In reality though, he's hurting the viability of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, which is its real strength. as he apparently didn't pay attention in class, and has mistaken Bitcoin as a store of value (I can put a V8 in a Honda and go 0-60 in 4 seconds, but it's still a Honda) rather than a medium of rapid exchange.

What does difficulty have to do with anything?  That's a random comment...  btw, processing power has been in the mid 7 Thps range for a while now.  Does that mean what ever you were hoping for form a 30% drop has been accomplished?

[trogdorjw73]

QFT. How is what is happening BTC *not* finding it's balance? To suggest that the manipulators of the market sit back and watch and do nothing with their cash and/or BTC is naive at best, rampant stupidity at worst. It's like saying, "Hey, Microsoft -- tell all of your major share holders to never sell any of their shares so that the market can determine the real value of MSFT stock." While we're at it, will all of you people with USD stop buying or selling everything so that the market can determine the real value of USD? News flash: the manipulators (e.g. large BTC holders) are part of the market, and they will always exist. Why don't we just say instead, "Mr. Manipulator, we're jealous of the fact that you have a shload of BTC and USD to play around with on MtGox; will you please redistribute all of your wealth to the rest of us so that we can be equal?"

Great post! I also think that a lot of the whining going on around here is due to to this 'jealousy'. If any of you had that level of capital, you would all be doing it too. You cannot criticize the 'manipulator' for wanting to protect his own interests. You are all doing it yourselves, albeit on a much smaller level. He is allowing us to find the bottom slowly and carefully, as opposed to the madness which would otherwise ensue if he didn't.

since i posted alot in similiar threads i feel beeing spoken to, partialy.
but i think some got me totally wrong: i am not questioning nor whining about the manipulator and him not beeing rational. he does what he believes serves him best, offcourse. and everybody inside here does the same, offcourse.

what i questioned was that some of you now take the price as balanced, clearly denying the obvious information that this walls can and probably will disappear as fast as they came: in about 20 seconds.

the comparison with microsoft lacks so much, i don't really know where to begin. maybe at the point, that microsoft sells stocks, not crypto currency? that there is an virtually unlimited amout of stocks they can give out? that the fucking company is made out of many people, not just one manipulator? that manipulations trough microsoft happens with the knowledge of nearly every shareholder? that there are annual meetings where the shareholder discuss if they should "manipulate"? that there is actual property behind the M$-stocks, not like bitcoin?!..

in my native language there is this slogan: not everything that is partly wrong is an comparison

the thing is: trying to psychologically manipulate the price above a level of natural balance (fake walls are NO real demand! he does NOT want people to sell into them, that is the point of manipulation!) that obvious will only delay the inevitable. regardless what happens, the market will find its price. thats what i want to say.

But gewure, we don't even know where he acquired the funds in the first place. There's certainly potential for the money having come from an initial BTC investment sold for over $20 per BTC, and for all we know the same person that had huge, manipulative sell walls up in the past is the same person doing the large buy walls right now. When we had large sell walls, I'm sure others were complaining that it was manipulation by "the man" to keep the price down. The fact is, all we can really say is that we're in a volatile market, and the lower the price gets the more volatile it will become (e.g. penny stocks).

[bittenbob]

I agree with you 100% Jonahan. I honestly look forward to a bitcoin that I can actually use and spend, without worrying about price fluctuations etc.

You think the fluctuations will get smaller when bitcoins cost less? A change from 3.10 to 2.50 in a day is the same as a fluctuation from 0.31 to 0.25 in a day. As the price goes down the volatility will probably increase, as it will take smaller amounts of money to influence the money. The fluctuations will continue until there are enough goods, services priced in bitcoins to hold the price steady, and enough money on both sides of the aisle (in bitcoins on one side and dollars, euros, pounds, etc. on the other) that no one person can significantly move the market.

+1

This is why I have been questioning people why they think $1 BTC is a good thing. Its actually very bad because it won't take as much to manipulate the price.

[trogdorjw73]

I agree with you 100% Jonahan. I honestly look forward to a bitcoin that I can actually use and spend, without worrying about price fluctuations etc.

You think the fluctuations will get smaller when bitcoins cost less? A change from 3.10 to 2.50 in a day is the same as a fluctuation from 0.31 to 0.25 in a day. As the price goes down the volatility will probably increase, as it will take smaller amounts of money to influence the money. The fluctuations will continue until there are enough goods, services priced in bitcoins to hold the price steady, and enough money on both sides of the aisle (in bitcoins on one side and dollars, euros, pounds, etc. on the other) that no one person can significantly move the market.

If I were to be selling goods/services for BTC, I'd probably have to tack on an extra 30% right now just to make sure I can get a reasonable payment. If the price of BTC is at $1 and I run a restaurant that accepts BTC, if my food costs me $10 for a plate normally I'd charge 15 BTC. If the price is $10 per BTC, I'd be more inclined to accept 1.1 BTC for the plate, and if the price is $100 per BTC (and has held steady for months at that level) I might just do a straight 1:1 pricing.

[gewure]

I agree with you 100% Jonahan. I honestly look forward to a bitcoin that I can actually use and spend, without worrying about price fluctuations etc.

You think the fluctuations will get smaller when bitcoins cost less? A change from 3.10 to 2.50 in a day is the same as a fluctuation from 0.31 to 0.25 in a day. As the price goes down the volatility will probably increase, as it will take smaller amounts of money to influence the money. The fluctuations will continue until there are enough goods, services priced in bitcoins to hold the price steady, and enough money on both sides of the aisle (in bitcoins on one side and dollars, euros, pounds, etc. on the other) that no one person can significantly move the market.

that is not true since we are all waiting for cheap coins to buy. the cheaper they become, the more we want to buy, the more expensive they become --> it becomes less volatile the cheaper they get. don't mix it up with pennystocks (where there is always the risk of putting millions of new shares in the market, or the corporation going bancrupt at all, or pure speculation on an e.g. intelectual property not beeing good measureable in $ etc..

the fundamentals of bitcoin are different: there are only 21.000.000 max. solely this fact makes a comparison with extreme volatile pennystocks invalid.

just my thoughts..
greets

[trogdorjw73]

At that price, if anyone (e.g. a government) really wants to shut down BTC, all they would need to do is buy up as many coins as they can for <$21 million and never put them back into circulation. Lower prices are inherently more volatile, at least if anyone is trading.

[mjcmurfy]

At that price, if anyone (e.g. a government) really wants to shut down BTC, all they would need to do is buy up as many coins as they can for <$21 million and never put them back into circulation. Lower prices are inherently more volatile, at least if anyone is trading.

In that case though, anyone who didn't sell to the government would hold the entirety of the supply. Since bitcoin is divisible to 8 places, even if there were only 1 million of them left, that would still be plenty to facilitate trade.

Bitcoin cannot be shut down, because it would be impossible for any single person to own 100% of the supply. Even if only 1000 bitcoins remained, it would still function as it does today; only with the decimal point in a different position.

[gewure]

At that price, if anyone (e.g. a government) really wants to shut down BTC, all they would need to do is buy up as many coins as they can for <$21 million and never put them back into circulation. Lower prices are inherently more volatile, at least if anyone is trading.

In that case though, anyone who didn't sell to the government would hold the entirety of the supply and the price per bitcoin would skyrocket. Since bitcoin is divisible to 8 places, even if there were only 1 million of them left, that would still be plenty to facilitate trade.

Bitcoin cannot be shut down, because it would be impossible for any single person to own 100% of the supply. Even if only 1000 bitcoins remained, it would still function as it does today; only with the decimal point in a different position.

cool, so i and my 20-BTC-to-never-be-sold will be the only ones left? cool news mate!! im getting finally rich with bitcoins without beeing an early adopter! yay! now i can leave this forum buy myself a maibach, let the poor eat my trash and be the rich capitalist bastard i have always hated loved to be!

[ThomasV]

Bitcoin will probably be stable around $1.00 or close to parity with the dollar. I sure that the developers had the dollar in mind when they created it and set the number of bitcoins.

this is by far the most ridiculous assertion I have read this week.