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RapTarX (OP)
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February 17, 2020, 11:59:25 AM
 #1

I have been watching some thread on "electrumx server" on the electeum board for somedays. I have tried to google it but none of the answer could have satisfied me.
What I have read so far; it's something like running a node? People can connect to my server if they can believe my node? Is that correct or I have missed something?

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February 17, 2020, 12:05:53 PM
Merited by suchmoon (7), RapTarX (1)
 #2

Electrumx is a server that normal electrum clients connect to. The server acts as a backbone for the Electrum clients and allows the user to retrieve specific information about the network, get the transactions for their wallet etc.

People connecting to your server doesn't necessary meam that they trust you. Most actually just randomly choose one that works. If they care about their privacy and stuff, they would run their own. Security wise, it offers the same security as SPV clients unless they run their own server. Electrum still retrieves block headers from several nodes.

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February 17, 2020, 12:23:08 PM
Merited by OgNasty (2), RapTarX (1)
 #3

People connecting to your server doesn't necessary meam that they trust you.

Actually I think that the last year's Electrum hijacking was made with a couple of malicious ElectrumX servers (telling that Electrum needs update and sending out the link to their malicious Electrum) and DDoS on the legit servers, making the users connect to the hacker's servers.


I have tried to google it but none of the answer could have satisfied me.

I guess that the main page to read is https://electrumx.readthedocs.io/
Shortly yes, it's a "node" (or better: server) for Electrum.

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February 17, 2020, 01:34:25 PM
Merited by RapTarX (2)
 #4

i strongly dislike calling them "servers" because it makes it look like a centralized thing you connect to.
Electrumx is the name you can use to describe bitcoin full nodes that have a more advanced P2P protocol compared to regular full nodes such as bitcoin core. they need a bigger storage space because they have to index their blockchain so that they can reply with transaction history based on addresses.

Actually I think that the last year's Electrum hijacking was made with a couple of malicious ElectrumX servers (telling that Electrum needs update and sending out the link to their malicious Electrum) and DDoS on the legit servers, making the users connect to the hacker's servers.
there is nothing important that a malicious Electrum node can fake. for example they can't give you a fake block header without having to mine it first! which is not possible since it costs a lot to mine a bitcoin block not to mention that you also check the header with other nodes.
or they can't tell you an unconfirmed transaction is confirmed without breaking merkle root's SHA256 which is again impossible.

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February 17, 2020, 02:01:34 PM
 #5

there is nothing important that a malicious Electrum node can fake. for example they can't give you a fake block header without having to mine it first!

Indeed, they cannot fake the Bitcoin headers, I wrote pretty clearly what did they actually fake.
All I could have been adding was that with the newer versions of Electrum the messages to be sent are handled different (hardcoded?) and even that cannot be exploited anymore.
But this was not relevant for the discussion, the relevant part was the fact the server node may not have to do anything special in order to have clients connected to it.


i strongly dislike calling them "servers" because it makes it look like a centralized thing you connect to.

In my mind server is something that serve i.e. offers its services (usually for free).
But I don't mind, node is good too.

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February 17, 2020, 02:21:26 PM
 #6

Well, it seems it's kind of charity works, isn't it? Like, if I run a personal server (node) for electeum I am going to help other people trying to use electrum as a light wallet. For me, I don't need to trust anyone else as well. Then where is the different between running a electrum node and bitcoin core node? I guess nothing much. Both are same. Sorry for such question. It might be looking stupid question for you.

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February 17, 2020, 02:30:43 PM
 #7

Well, it seems it's kind of charity works, isn't it? Like, if I run a personal server (node) for electeum I am going to help other people trying to use electrum as a light wallet. For me, I don't need to trust anyone else as well. Then where is the different between running a electrum node and bitcoin core node? I guess nothing much. Both are same. Sorry for such question. It might be looking stupid question for you.

It's a mix between charity and running a node for yourself because you don't trust anybody else... There is a difference between running a full node and running an electrum node ON TOP of a bitcoin node: there's quite a bit of overhead, making the minimum specs for a full node smaller than for a full node + electrum node.

I stopped running an electrum node, but i still run a full node...

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February 18, 2020, 04:16:49 AM
 #8

Indeed, they cannot fake the Bitcoin headers, I wrote pretty clearly what did they actually fake.
All I could have been adding was that with the newer versions of Electrum the messages to be sent are handled different (hardcoded?) and even that cannot be exploited anymore.
yeah, i was just posting an addition. and yeah the new versions receive a message and compare it with the hardcoded message they store and only show pre-defined messages to user unlike before when they showed anything that the "server" sent them.

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i strongly dislike calling them "servers" because it makes it look like a centralized thing you connect to.

In my mind server is something that serve i.e. offers its services (usually for free).
But I don't mind, node is good too.
the term "server" is technically correct, i just don't like it myself because i feel like it brings a centralized weight with it like saying "connect to blockchain.info servers".

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February 19, 2020, 01:06:11 AM
Last edit: February 19, 2020, 01:23:17 AM by Artemis3
Merited by LeGaulois (1)
 #9

Well, it seems it's kind of charity works, isn't it? Like, if I run a personal server (node) for electeum I am going to help other people trying to use electrum as a light wallet. For me, I don't need to trust anyone else as well. Then where is the different between running a electrum node and bitcoin core node? I guess nothing much. Both are same. Sorry for such question. It might be looking stupid question for you.

It's a mix between charity and running a node for yourself because you don't trust anybody else... There is a difference between running a full node and running an electrum node ON TOP of a bitcoin node: there's quite a bit of overhead, making the minimum specs for a full node smaller than for a full node + electrum node.

I stopped running an electrum node, but i still run a full node...

I have seen at least 3 different electrum server software, one is literally called "electrum personal server" and its quite light. You don't have to open it to others, you can keep it to yourself only, or your own network if you want.

And i clearly remember one of them not needing a full node, a trimmed node works so the requirement is a small as a normal bitcoin node (core wallet). The electrum overhead is pretty minimal especially when private and it could easily run in a raspi.

"Electrumx" is just one of the three, the other two are "Electrum server" and "electrum personal server" (just checked). This is open source, anyone can implement their own server (including malicious actors) it doesn't mean they literally used electrumx, they would have at least modified one of the existing projects or coded their own. Last time they tried a DDoS (when their spammy servers were ignored by newer wallets) i had my own personal server running and did not notice a thing.

And yes its voluntary work if you set up a public server. As with anything public, make sure your server is secure.



i strongly dislike calling them "servers" because it makes it look like a centralized thing you connect to.
Electrumx is the name you can use to describe bitcoin full nodes that have a more advanced P2P protocol compared to regular full nodes such as bitcoin core. they need a bigger storage space because they have to index their blockchain so that they can reply with transaction history based on addresses.

Actually I think that the last year's Electrum hijacking was made with a couple of malicious ElectrumX servers (telling that Electrum needs update and sending out the link to their malicious Electrum) and DDoS on the legit servers, making the users connect to the hacker's servers.
there is nothing important that a malicious Electrum node can fake. for example they can't give you a fake block header without having to mine it first! which is not possible since it costs a lot to mine a bitcoin block not to mention that you also check the header with other nodes.
or they can't tell you an unconfirmed transaction is confirmed without breaking merkle root's SHA256 which is again impossible.

Electrum is something optional that makes the electrum light "spv?" wallet work. It is exactly as you say, complete with the centralization part. They ARE servers, and they do centralize things. But again, its optional, a convenience for the community, not unlike LN, except unpaid for the operator.

The Electrum wallet needs an electrum server to work, there is no way around that. It does connect to it and trust it to have current blockchain data and broadcast your transactions. Truly paranoid people should stick with core, or cherry pick the servers they connect to (yes you can choose).

If blockchain.info sets up a public Electrum server, its literally like you said. This is not p2p but server client. Bitcoin remains p2p of course, the servers are working on top of regular bitcoin nodes which ARE p2p.

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February 19, 2020, 07:01:42 AM
 #10

~
Electrum is something optional that makes the electrum light "spv?" wallet work. It is exactly as you say, complete with the centralization part. They ARE servers, and they do centralize things. But again, its optional, a convenience for the community, not unlike LN, except unpaid for the operator.
actually i am trying to say that it does NOT centralize anything. it is completely decentralized and you don't rely on any "centralized server", that is why i dislike using that word instead of using the word "nodes".

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The Electrum wallet needs an electrum server to work, there is no way around that.
it is like saying bitcoin needs bitcoin nodes to run!

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It does connect to it and trust it to have current blockchain data and broadcast your transactions.
no, you connect to multiple nodes and download the current blockchain headers and transactions that belong to you then you can also verify them. as for broadcasting, that part is no different than running a full node. you have a tx and send it to the peers you connect to. then they decide whether to include it in their mempool and if they want to relay it to others too.

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Truly paranoid people should stick with core, or cherry pick the servers they connect to (yes you can choose).
being paranoid for good reasons is good but being paranoid for weird and wrong reasons is not.
thinking Electrum is centralized is just wrong. you should run a full node for example if you want better privacy since Electrum servers have easier time knowing all your addresses and linking them together, however using a full node doesn't make it impossible. other nodes could still figure out which addresses belong to you but it is harder.

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February 19, 2020, 07:28:03 AM
 #11

I have seen at least 3 different electrum server software, one is literally called "electrum personal server" and its quite light.

I want to remind you that OP was asking about ElectrumX.


Truly paranoid people should stick with core, or cherry pick the servers they connect to (yes you can choose).

Truly paranoid people should not connect to the internet. Ever.
This being said, everybody will have to research and choose what suits him best according to how paranoid he/she is.

I don't think that cherry picking would help much in most cases, since even "known good" servers may get reinstalled with something else. So the real options are SPV or not SPV.
For me SPV is "good enough" for daily use. If I'll ever get rich I might reconsider that  Grin

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BC.GAME
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..CASINO....SPORTS....RACING..


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