Copycat Signatures: Chipmixer and Wasabi

[dkbit98]

It is funny to see people are doing stuff like this.
My question is are any of this specific signatures copyright protected or not?

[1715065454]

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[bL4nkcode]

This stuff is related between the designer and the non-signature participant who uses the signature without the designer's permission IMO.

[Timelord2067]

Didn't we do this a few weeks ago?  Can't recall - was it YoBit?  Who is the signature campaign manager that is doing this?  Surely the designer of the actual signature code should be made aware that their design has been modified without authorisation.  At any rate, many thanks for making this plagiarism known.

[Lauda]

How about this?


AFAIK I never saw anyone complain about the profile owner plagiarizing or copying chipmixer's signature design despite being around for a while now or is the wasabi issue a special case?

I think this should not be allowed either because it is plagiarism, the intended use is irrelevant.

[LoyceV]

I think this should not be allowed either because it is plagiarism, the intended use is irrelevant.

What made you change your mind?

@DarkStar_ Is Vadi2323's plagiarm on the signature design allowed?

Unless you think that Vadi2323 is actually promoting terrorism, this is either parody (may be fair use) or satire (probably not fair use). Given that Vadi2323 seems to be ridiculing the Chipmixer campaign itself - it could be considered parody. On the other hand, he could be targeting privacy/anonymization in general, in which case it's more of a satire. IANAL.

This.

[Lauda]

I think this should not be allowed either because it is plagiarism, the intended use is irrelevant.

What made you change your mind?

@DarkStar_ Is Vadi2323's plagiarm on the signature design allowed?

Unless you think that Vadi2323 is actually promoting terrorism, this is either parody (may be fair use) or satire (probably not fair use). Given that Vadi2323 seems to be ridiculing the Chipmixer campaign itself - it could be considered parody. On the other hand, he could be targeting privacy/anonymization in general, in which case it's more of a satire. IANAL.

This.

Good quote. I am not sure that my previous agreement with this stance was the right decision. There can be so many edge-cases because of that. I think it would be much simpler if we uniformly disallow any kind of plagiarism/copying and modifying. If somebody wants to make a parody, then let them make their own design(?). What do you think?

[LoyceV]

What do you think?

If it's plagiarism, it's up to the Mods to deal with. I don't even know if Global Mods can do that, or only Admins.

As for the parody:

an imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect.

I guess I just don't see the comical value for Vadi2323's signature on a Bitcoin forum where many users value their privacy.

[Lauda]

What do you think?

If it's plagiarism, it's up to the Mods to deal with. I don't even know if Global Mods can do that, or only Admins.

No. That is post plagiarism. Signature design plagiarism is theft that has been dealt with the trust system.

As for the parody:

an imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect.

I guess I just don't see the comical value for Vadi2323's signature on a Bitcoin forum where many users value their privacy.

Correct. This is why I think my previous opinion is wrong. That particular case is simple, but some other cases might be very difficult: e.g. something that may be funny to some but not to others. Easier if the consensus was just: Do not do it.

[Harlot]

But it is obviously a clickbait. Using someone's else design to promote similarly service is conscious deception. The low marketing budget is not enough justification.

Not entirely through, everyone could have a similar design compared to what you have as really I don't think people can create an entirely unique design. The only problem here with the "ChipMixer" being edited out and replacing it to "Wasabi Wallet" they haven't replaced the logo of ChipMixer in the signature which is protected by their trademark. As far as Wasabi Wallet being promoted, I haven't seen any real activity from them in the forum so this might just be an individual trying to promote a competitor from ChipMixer and used their signature to be used in promoting Wasabi Wallet.

[JollyGood]

It goes beyond copyright, it goes to the heart of what is also morally correct or not.

To use/steal/copy is one thing but to not even accept that you did something wrong is another thing - that is why the user wearing the copycat signature should explain why he did it and what the story is behind it.

It is funny to see people are doing stuff like this.
My question is are any of this specific signatures copyright protected or not?

[Lauda]

While i agree there's ethical problem, IMO it's problem between ChipMixer and the user who wear copycat signature, all we need to do is let ChipMixer representative know about this problem.

No. It our problem.

Wasabi is not a profitable service

While i doubt it's profitable, there's 0.003% coordinator fee.

That is irrelevant.

[suchmoon]

What do you think?

If it's plagiarism, it's up to the Mods to deal with. I don't even know if Global Mods can do that, or only Admins.

No. That is post plagiarism. Signature design plagiarism is theft that has been dealt with the trust system.

Forum rules apply to signatures as well. We shouldn't use the trust system for either kind of plagiarism unless the staff explicitly refuse to take action and there is an actual risk involved, e.g. the user is promoting a scam.

Wasabi is not a profitable service

While i doubt it's profitable, there's 0.003% coordinator fee.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/emq3hv/ama_im_nopara73_i_wrote_65_of_the_code_of_wasabi/


Edited 2020-11-30 to fix a broken image

[Lauda]

What do you think?

If it's plagiarism, it's up to the Mods to deal with. I don't even know if Global Mods can do that, or only Admins.

No. That is post plagiarism. Signature design plagiarism is theft that has been dealt with the trust system.

Forum rules apply to signatures as well. We shouldn't use the trust system for either kind of plagiarism unless the staff explicitly refuse to take action and there is an actual risk involved, e.g. the user is promoting a scam.

We have always acted using the trust system, and there is no reason to stop doing so. Forum rules if applicable are an added bonus.

Wasabi is not a profitable service

While i doubt it's profitable, there's 0.003% coordinator fee.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/emq3hv/ama_im_nopara73_i_wrote_65_of_the_code_of_wasabi/

Right, not profitable for any campaign then.

[TheNewAnon135246]

While i agree there's ethical problem, IMO it's problem between ChipMixer and the user who wear copycat signature, all we need to do is let ChipMixer representative know about this problem.

Wasabi is not a profitable service

While i doubt it's profitable, there's 0.003% coordinator fee.

According to Chainalysis, Wasabi mixed $250,000,000 in 2019*. That means $750,000 has been paid in coordinator fees, which seems pretty profitably to me .

Regarding the OP, I don't really see the issue as long as it is an individual using the signature (in a non-campaign way). It would've been honorable if the user PMed the signature designer first, but you can't prevent people from using the BB code. Campaigns could add a disclaimer in the OP but there would still be no way to enforce it.

*source: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/chainalysis-most-mixed-bitcoin-not-used-for-illicit-purposes

EDIT: 

[Lauda]

While i agree there's ethical problem, IMO it's problem between ChipMixer and the user who wear copycat signature, all we need to do is let ChipMixer representative know about this problem.

Wasabi is not a profitable service

While i doubt it's profitable, there's 0.003% coordinator fee.

According to Chainalysis, Wasabi mixed $250,000,000 in 2019*. That means $750,000 has been paid in coordinator fees, which seems pretty profitably to me .
*source: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/chainalysis-most-mixed-bitcoin-not-used-for-illicit-purposes

While I am quite surprised (I have underestimated Wasabi), I am not able to follow your math. 0.003% is per anonymity set ($7500 assuming all went through a set of 1). On average, the set I would say is in the 50-75 on average.

Regarding the OP, I don't really see the issue as long as it is an individual using the signature (in a non-campaign way). It would've been honorable if the user PMed the signature designer first, but you can't prevent people from using the BB code. Campaigns could add a disclaimer in the OP but there would still be no way to enforce it.

Translation: Some theft is okay, some other theft is not okay.

[suchmoon]

While i agree there's ethical problem, IMO it's problem between ChipMixer and the user who wear copycat signature, all we need to do is let ChipMixer representative know about this problem.

Wasabi is not a profitable service

While i doubt it's profitable, there's 0.003% coordinator fee.

According to Chainalysis, Wasabi mixed $250,000,000 in 2019*. That means $750,000 has been paid in coordinator fees, which seems pretty profitably to me .

$250 million times 0.003% is $7500. OTOH the 0.003% fee is per anonymity set and Wasabi uses 50+ sets by default, so it's a 0.15% minimum total fee, usually higher. $400-500k would be a more reasonable estimate, but that's just the revenue. There are costs/expenses for sure.

At any rate, I'd say nopara73 claiming that he makes money is good enough to assume there is profit, and I'm sure he could pay for a signature if he wanted to, and I'm quite sure he's not paying for Gyrsur's copypasta signature.

[TheNewAnon135246]

While i agree there's ethical problem, IMO it's problem between ChipMixer and the user who wear copycat signature, all we need to do is let ChipMixer representative know about this problem.

Wasabi is not a profitable service

While i doubt it's profitable, there's 0.003% coordinator fee.

According to Chainalysis, Wasabi mixed $250,000,000 in 2019*. That means $7500 has been paid in coordinator fees, which seems pretty profitably to me . (totally not edited)

$250 million times 0.003% is $7500. OTOH the 0.003% fee is per anonymity set and Wasabi uses 50+ sets by default, so it's a 0.15% minimum total fee, usually higher. $400-500k would be a more reasonable estimate, but that's just the revenue. There are costs/expenses for sure.

At any rate, I'd say nopara73 claiming that he makes money is good enough to assume there is profit, and I'm sure he could pay for a signature if he wanted to, and I'm quite sure he's not paying for Gyrsur's copypasta signature.

Shhhhh, I never said it was $750,000 .

Here is the coordinator address: https://blockstream.info/address/bc1qs604c7jv6amk4cxqlnvuxv26hv3e48cds4m0ew (currently holding 75.88 BTC). They also raised $337,500 for a 4.5% stake in their company a while ago.

[JollyGood]

Thank you.

What I did was to start the thread to question what was going on regarding the signature but it seems user Gyrsur is the only one that is displaying it.

The copycat signature is even showing the "c" on either side on the signature - I presume "c" was intended for Chipmixer in the Chipmixer signature but what is happening with the Wasabi one-off signature is strange, hence this thread.

The user Gyrsur has not signed in since yesterday so is probably unaware of what is going on so we look forward to him posting here after he read the PM (sent by Lauda) and this thread.

Didn't we do this a few weeks ago?  Can't recall - was it YoBit?  Who is the signature campaign manager that is doing this?  Surely the designer of the actual signature code should be made aware that their design has been modified without authorisation.  At any rate, many thanks for making this plagiarism known.

[johhnyUA]

I guess I just don't see the comical value for Vadi2323's signature on a Bitcoin forum where many users value their privacy.

In russian local there many such people which accepting the idea of his signature. Also, this is obvious parody, are we here semi anarchist society, or we just another branch of Apple or Samsung which loves to fight in court about 4 camera design, eh?

Also, while ChipMixer is not complaining, you can't do anything about that. There no crimes without a victim.  

Translation: Some theft is okay, some other theft is not okay.

Stop your idiotic nonsense. You can't "steal" design, thoughts, words and other abstract things. You can steal a car, because of car get stolen, the owner will left without a car. But if i take signature design, ChipMixer will not lose it own.

Or if we are going in such way, then i must tell one thing: "LAUDA IS THIEF, IT HAD STOLEN ALL MY THOUGHTS AND IDEAS, I NEED THEM BACK". Firstly - return them to me, and only then start to hunt some other.

Or i will agree for 100 btc compensation.

P.S: Yes, i'm full of that copyrighting shit. Go copyright your anus, dog (not only to Lauda, if you're a copy slave, then it's also for you)

P.P.S: Yes, maybe it's unethical to take someones signature design, but it will be more worse to create here patent and copyright trolls (like in real world)

[DarkStar_]

P.P.S: Yes, maybe it's unethical to take someones signature design, but it will be more worse to create here patent and copyright trolls (like in real world)

The signature (which IIRC roslinpl made back in 2017) has been in use for over 2 years now. I think it is extremely clear that the intention of the signature was not to encourage people to copy it (?) and then attempt seek damages.

Personally I think this case is a lot more clear cut than Vadi2323 - you can't make the claim that stealing a signature design to promote a different service is parody.