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Author Topic: Do We Need Government?  (Read 6410 times)
herzmeister
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November 19, 2011, 03:16:14 PM
 #1

Libertarian pr0n 4 u.  Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItjiDWa48q4

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Should government provide law enforcement? Most would argue that government is absolutely necessary for law enforcement. Prof. Edward Stringhman, however, argues that government may not even be necessary at all.

To come to this conclusion, Prof. Stringham asks a few important questions. First, if something is really important, does it logically follow that government should provide it? Second, are markets capable of providing law enforcement and security in the modern world? Third, how are disputes currently settled between people of different countries?

Looking at the first question, it doesn't seem to be the case that important things must be provided by a government. For instance, think about food. Food is necessary for life, and yet, markets do an excellent job of providing food to consumers.

Even if you're convinced that markets can provide important things, you may think law enforcement and security are a special case that markets are incapable of providing in a modern world. However, markets already enforce private rules and provide security. Disney World, Las Vegas, and malls all have private rules that are enforced by private security.

Accepting the arguments above, you may still be skeptical about market's abilities to settle disputes between different systems of rules or law. This, in fact, was Ayn Rand's primary reason for advocating a minimal state. Current interactions in the real world provide examples as to how markets resolve these disputes. Think about an international soccer game or international trade. In both instances, individuals are interacting across state boundaries, and are only subject to the jurisdiction of their own territory. In these situations, these individuals contract with the arbiters such as a soccer league or a private court to resolve disputes.

Credits: This lecture was delivered in 2009 at the Metropolitan State College of Denver School of Business, as part of the Exploring Economic Freedom Lecture Series, directed by Prof. Alexandre Padilla. This video was produced and directed by Scott Houck, and edited by Adrienne Christy. Video production provided by the Educational Technology Center at Metropolitan State College of Denver. Video used by LearnLiberty.org with permission.

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Flyers66
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November 19, 2011, 04:00:34 PM
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Yes we need government this is a stupid question. I just believe that we need less government in some areas.
herzmeister
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November 19, 2011, 05:06:55 PM
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yep, "small" government for a "small" military to "defend" against those pesky non-libertarian neighbors.  Lips sealed

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November 19, 2011, 05:09:37 PM
 #4

Even if you believe big government = corrupt gov.

Some government is needed to maintain some sort of organization and order.

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November 19, 2011, 05:52:09 PM
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The private security thing always amuses me.  Man is beating his wife; she calls the security firm and he yells "Your contract is with me - piss off or you are all fired!" and resumes beating his wife.

herzmeister
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November 19, 2011, 05:55:17 PM
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well i've heard society isn't that patriarchic anymore in the 21st century, and women can very well choose their own security firms.

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Hawker
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November 19, 2011, 05:57:05 PM
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well i've heard society isn't that patriarchic anymore in the 21st century, and women can very well choose their own security firms.

You heard wrong.  There are lots of weirdos and control freaks out there. 

herzmeister
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November 19, 2011, 06:06:08 PM
 #8

There'll be places the weak and abused can go. Those don't have necessarily to be security firms. Humans are good, many do voluntary service. Especially when they don't have to pay 90% of their earnings for income taxes, sales and other taxes. So there'll be shelters.

That's not one of the problems I see with libertarianism.

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Hawker
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November 19, 2011, 06:18:57 PM
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There'll be places the weak and abused can go. Those don't have necessarily to be security firms. Humans are good, many do voluntary service. Especially when they don't have to pay 90% of their earnings for income taxes, sales and other taxes. So there'll be shelters.

That's not one of the problems I see with libertarianism.

So as the security firm drives off and the beating resumes, the woman will have the satisfaction of knowing that human beings are good and that she can move to a shelter.  You think that hats so much preferable to the present situation where the oppressive state arrests the man, do you?

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November 19, 2011, 06:23:09 PM
 #10

well i've heard society isn't that patriarchic anymore in the 21st century, and women can very well choose their own security firms.

You heard wrong.  There are lots of weirdos and control freaks out there. 
and some of them are women.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
Gyom
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November 19, 2011, 06:25:03 PM
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Except that in other countries, the woman can legally be beaten by her husband and can't even request a divorce on the grounds of physical abuse...
herzmeister
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November 19, 2011, 06:31:34 PM
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Victims are naturally overwhelmed when they are being mistreated. So I meant "shelter" as the first impulse for them to (hopefully) know they exist and that they can run to.

What happens to the offender then is another question. In a free, anarchic society, he'll at least be ostracized. There'd probably be repuation systems. Today's prison systems are known to be inefficient don't help much to improve on our society. The video has some about that.

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Hawker
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November 19, 2011, 06:48:17 PM
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Victims are naturally overwhelmed when they are being mistreated. So I meant "shelter" as the first impulse for them to (hopefully) know they exist and that they can run to.

What happens to the offender then is another question. In a free, anarchic society, he'll at least be ostracized. There'd probably be repuation systems. Today's prison systems are known to be inefficient don't help much to improve on our society. The video has some about that.

Sorry but you have no experience of domestic abuse.  Its often the victim gets ostracised - that's precisely why you need laws in the first place.  Victims often fail to testify against their abusers.  You need police who have the right training.

The undercurrent here is that in your view, its more important to worry about how we help the victim without the state instead of putting help for the victim front and centre.  The best way to help in a domestic violence situation is to have the violent party arrested by the state and the carer of the children given access to barring orders.  These are situations where the state is the most appropriate agency and worrying about finding a non-state agency is missing the point.

herzmeister
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November 19, 2011, 07:22:57 PM
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"I" do have more experience of domestic abuse than you assume. I happen to know very well the psychological terror and that it is often the victim who is made feel guilty. In the case I witnessed, the offender actually was a state servant, making the victim even be more in despair with feeling helpless and the whole society, the whole world against them.

So of course it's a bit bold to claim that the monopoly of the state has worsened the situation here, but I don't believe it has improved it much either.

"Trained policemen"? Hah, well I think "trained" and empathetic psychologists would be more appropriate in such a situation either way.

"I" am not a libertarian as said, but I believe it's right to question and challenge the philosophical concept of the "state", and to acknowledge that today's forms of living together is just one of many possibilities.

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Gyom
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November 19, 2011, 07:52:27 PM
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"I" am not a libertarian as said, but I believe it's right to question and challenge the philosophical concept of the "state", and to acknowledge that today's forms of living together is just one of many possibilities.

Agreed.

Also, @Hawker, as I mentioned previously, some countries will allow, even encourage the beating of one's wife. When you say there are laws against this, this is unfortunately a broad generalization that is not true everywhere. It was still allowed in the US a few decades ago, and apparently still is under some old state laws...

Try to google dumbest laws... apparently it's still legal to beat your wife on the Court's step on Sunday in South Carolina... :-/
Hawker
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November 19, 2011, 07:56:23 PM
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"I" am not a libertarian as said, but I believe it's right to question and challenge the philosophical concept of the "state", and to acknowledge that today's forms of living together is just one of many possibilities.

Agreed.

Also, @Hawker, as I mentioned previously, some countries will allow, even encourage the beating of one's wife. When you say there are laws against this, this is unfortunately a broad generalization that is not true everywhere. It was still allowed in the US a few decades ago, and apparently still is under some old state laws...

Try to google dumbest laws... apparently it's still legal to beat your wife on the Court's step on Sunday in South Carolina... :-/

Logic error.  Just because someone somewhere does something stupid doesn't mean that we all have to be stupid.

Hawker
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November 19, 2011, 08:00:43 PM
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"I" do have more experience of domestic abuse than you assume. I happen to know very well the psychological terror and that it is often the victim who is made feel guilty. In the case I witnessed, the offender actually was a state servant, making the victim even be more in despair with feeling helpless and the whole society, the whole world against them.

So of course it's a bit bold to claim that the monopoly of the state has worsened the situation here, but I don't believe it has improved it much either.

"Trained policemen"? Hah, well I think "trained" and empathetic psychologists would be more appropriate in such a situation either way.

"I" am not a libertarian as said, but I believe it's right to question and challenge the philosophical concept of the "state", and to acknowledge that today's forms of living together is just one of many possibilities.

Logic error.  I seriously doubt the offender was acting in his capacity as a state servant when he beat his wife so to say the state was more or less culpable is to connect unrelated facts.

My experience is that its the police make the biggest difference.  The humiliation of arrest and being kept in the cells to cool down is a huge thing and a great many people are deterred by it.

Challenging the existing system is great.  But ideally we want to keep the things that work and improve society, don't we?

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November 19, 2011, 08:16:16 PM
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The private security thing always amuses me.  Man is beating his wife; she calls the security firm and he yells "Your contract is with me - piss off or you are all fired!" and resumes beating his wife.

Quote
Logic error.  Just because someone somewhere does something stupid doesn't mean that we all have to be stupid.

There you go, you just contradicted yourself. Just because some idiot beats his wife doesn't mean that we all have to do it... Discuss.

Edit : As a bonus question, how is my previous post a logic error, when I only have stated existing and verifiable facts, while offering no logical reasoning whatsoever?
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November 19, 2011, 09:26:37 PM
 #19

The Short Answer: YES

Government is a force of Nature... Humans will seek like minded people and form rules... these rules will be tested by others and nature. We tend to think we are "Smart." This is actually being dumb. Accept the boundaries in which nature has provided, although sometimes seemingly cruel ones, and work with those systems.

  Government is ruling by force or threat of force.... Has always been that way and will always be that way. Suppose Iran went with Flower Power instead of Nuclear Power.... They would be conquered in a day.

  The problem is with the application of force and when to appropriately use it. I follow the "Brubaker" and/or "Patton" model. In Brubaker's instance; "Walk softly but carry a big stick" and in Patton's "Only unleash the dogs of war in dire circumstances, then quickly cage them again".

If you find yourself disagreeing... Imagine only 1 family on earth. There is government. The Head of the Family rules by varying means but force and/or the threat of force is the predominant one.

In the natural world it boils down to 3 basics...

EAT
SLEEP
PROPAGATE

How well you do these things is where all the problems come in.

So, I propose that your question is not whether we need Government, but which form of Government is best. To answer that:

Capitalism is a natural process not a form of Government. Many confuse this. But think of it this way. Capitalism is trying to find the best and most efficient use of resources while achieving the largest gain. All forms of government do this no matter what they call themselves. Democracy, Communist, etc...

There will always be more poor than rich. That is a forgone conclusion. So the real question is, which form of government allows the the free flow of poor to rich and rich to poor with the least amount of barriers. Given a level genetic field of poor and rich.

BTW, my term of using Rich and Poor here only imply financial status. Personally I thing culturally rich systems can beat the heck out of financial ones. I.E. Bet the Amish are laughing their butts off at our "Recession."


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Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
Hawker
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November 19, 2011, 10:13:30 PM
 #20

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The private security thing always amuses me.  Man is beating his wife; she calls the security firm and he yells "Your contract is with me - piss off or you are all fired!" and resumes beating his wife.

Quote
Logic error.  Just because someone somewhere does something stupid doesn't mean that we all have to be stupid.

There you go, you just contradicted yourself. Just because some idiot beats his wife doesn't mean that we all have to do it... Discuss.

Edit : As a bonus question, how is my previous post a logic error, when I only have stated existing and verifiable facts, while offering no logical reasoning whatsoever?


We are talking about how to stop the domestic violence resulting in death, not how best to copy it.  OP suggests the answer is for the victim to move to a shelter and the community to ostracise the violent person.  I'm suggesting the police arresting the violent person is a proven better way of handling things.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting other than that there are bad countries in the world.  If you have a useful suggestion, please post it.


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