[WARNING] Sol Noctis Bull Coin Keys Compromised / Scam

[Lesbian Cow]

Hello everyone,

My update is not much of an update. 

I have had several emails with my contact at Top World Coins which, like the previous Sol Noctis Binary Bull, was the company/distributor that commissioned the coins and distributed them.   They have assured me they are looking into how the coin in question was compromised. 

I learned that the hologram and assembly was done by "another firm" but that is all I know. 

My last reply from TWC was on 07 April. 

I will update here when I hear more from them. 

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[BitcoinPenny]

Thanks for doing this, LC.

Regards,
Chris

[krogothmanhattan]

Any updates on this?

[Lesbian Cow]

Hello Everyone,

As mentioned in my previous update, I have been communicating with TWC regarding what appears to be a compromised private key on a Sol Noctis Binary Bull.  TWC believes all private keys were destroyed and that the only way this can have occurred is thru tampering with the hologram.  I have examined the hologram and see no signs of tampering.  TWC understandably would like to examine the coin as well and have asked I send the coin back to them.  I was not too keen on this however after much thought I have come to the conclusion that without sending the coin to them it is impossible to move any further.  Below are several photos and a video of the hologram taken today prior to shipment of the coin.  

My thoughts are as follows:

1)  Assume private keys are compromised.  Do not over fund the coins

2)  If there was a significant amount of funding on these coins I would suggest immediately peeling and sweeping the private key but given the approximate 9 usd in funded value I am not so sure that is wise.

3)  If you purchased a Sol Noctis Binary Bull FROM ME and your 0.001 btc in funding is swept with the hologram in tact I will refund you the 0.001 btc.  

4)  I have more than 10 and less than 100 Bulls left and have suspend sales most likely indefinitely.  I currently have no plans to peel the coins left in my possession.

Public address of compromised coin:  https://www.smartbit.com.au/address/1Lh975rtt1RwDJ1SHGX8mn1iHwe7kaVfMQ

Video of compromised coin hologram:  https://youtu.be/uLEK2mppJt0

Photos Below:

[coblee]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but this could be a case of a mistake by coin maker where they put the wrong private keys under the hologram. So maybe 2 coin's private keys were swapped. I would be interested to find out what private key is behind this hologram.

[Lesbian Cow]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but this could be a case of a mistake by coin maker where they put the wrong private keys under the hologram. So maybe 2 coin's private keys were swapped. I would be interested to find out what private key is behind this hologram.

That has not been pointed out and is a possibility however the fact that someone then put the original 0.001 btc back on the coin would still be hard to explain.

[ChiBitCTy]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but this could be a case of a mistake by coin maker where they put the wrong private keys under the hologram. So maybe 2 coin's private keys were swapped. I would be interested to find out what private key is behind this hologram.

This is an interesting point Satoshi Lite.  Still, shows a lack of proper key generation.


Lesbian Cow-  Thanks for all your work on this!  I know you've spent a lot of time working on all this, and it is much appreciated!  At this point, there really isn't anything positive that could be said from TWC.  If anything they get the coin and try and claim it's tampered ( I wish LC hadn't needed to send the coin back to them but there was no other way to move forward with this).  

Sol Noctis coins are compromised, and they sadly belong firmly in Krogo's  Scam Coin Maker thread at this point.  I am personally disgusted by TWC's response to this.  They recently ( 2 weeks ago I believe ) held a raffle for a Sol Noctis Bull on their Instagram Account.  I was tagged by a friend on the post and wrote  "All things considered, I think it's pretty messed up they are even hosting this raffle".  My post and my buddies reply were deleted. I believe they then deleted the post after my buddy called them out for it ( shady behavior !!).  I think a legit company would suspend sales and notify all 3rd party vendors at minimum until this is all cleared up.  

Just my 2 satoshis.

[krogothmanhattan]

Added Sol Noctis to the thread of scammers...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3315347.0

[owlcatz]

I'm still not convinced myself. I mean one coin so far?

I would be hard-pressed to say the Eagles were a scam coin, as noone has ever seen any issues there.

The other thing I was thinking about - These coins are really awesome looking but are fairly low-denom. That probably means less get peeled by people, but then again, without lists of addresses, there would be no way to tell en masse.

Personally, I'm not going to worry or care much about losing .001 on the Bulls if indeed they are a scam, as I only own about 5 of them lol.... Either way, they remain one of my favorite coin designs/holograms out there.

Cheers

[ChiBitCTy]

I'm still not convinced myself. I mean one coin so far?

I would be hard-pressed to say the Eagles were a scam coin, as noone has ever seen any issues there.

The other thing I was thinking about - These coins are really awesome looking but are fairly low-denom. That probably means less get peeled by people, but then again, without lists of addresses, there would be no way to tell en masse.

Personally, I'm not going to worry or care much about losing .001 on the Bulls if indeed they are a scam, as I only own about 5 of them lol.... Either way, they remain one of my favorite coin designs/holograms out there.

Cheers

But- How many Casascius or Lealana coins have moved under a hologram? I’m not necessarily calling them a scam, as I am “compromised” (SORTA like Microsoul). Eagles and Bulls both funded by same outlet apparently.

Do we have an address list? Who made the keys? Why did they make the redemption process like they did?  Will TWC share this info with us?

I think we have to let this play out further. They’ve done nothing to prove the coins aren’t compromised at this point. Let’s see how they respond when they receive the coin.  With such low funding, who’s to say they (or key maker, if actually not one in the same)) aren’t waiting for BTC to hit much higher numbers then bam one day all coins have moved.  ( I agree 🦉, gorgeous and very unique coins. One of my favorite. Not highly funded. But, still, compromised).

[anonymousminer]

I would only consider the Bulls compromised. 

I would not consider the Eagles compromised unless proven otherwise. 

I'd think the Polish Mint, who only made the Eagles, would have been careful in this process. 

Now Mint 21, the place that made the Bulls, I have ZERO faith in. 

The holograms are different on the Eagles and the Bulls.  The Eagle's holograms are much higher quality. 

The private keys are standard on the Eagles.  They are cocked up on the Bulls.  ( thanks cwil for the work around )

My 2 bits on the matter.

[ChiBitCTy]

I would only consider the Bulls compromised. 

I would not consider the Eagles compromised unless proven otherwise. 

I'd think the Polish Mint, who only made the Eagles, would have been careful in this process. 

Now Mint 21, the place that made the Bulls, I have ZERO faith in. 

The holograms are different on the Eagles and the Bulls.  The Eagle's holograms are much higher quality. 

The private keys are standard on the Eagles.  They are cocked up on the Bulls.  ( thanks cwil for the work around )

My 2 bits on the matter.

I do not believe the mints had anything to do with funding.  I was told both eagles and bulls keys were made by same person/company.

[anonymousminer]

I was told both eagles and bulls keys were made by same person/company.

I do not believe this is accurate unless proof is provided.  Different mints, different holograms and different private keys. 

[bitcoiner24h]

Thank you for sharing LC and trying to clarify all this, I have thought about this collection, but if those responsible do not clarify what happened ...
for me it is not safe 

[krogothmanhattan]

    Yes…Sol Noctis is one of the most beautiful coins one can get for their collection and I was amongst the many that were excited when I was able to buy some directly from the manufacturer.

     And yes the amount loaded on these coins is only 0.001 BTC which by far is not much.

    Yet, we as physical coin collectors place a great deal of trust on the maker of physical coins and the process on which the paper wallets are made and how they are handled. We can never be 100% sure if any coin maker has ever held onto the private keys or not and only the passage of time will tell us if this is so or not. There is always the risk that coins can be swept. The only way with 0% risk is if you make your own.

    In the case of Sol Noctis, this one coin incident that we know of so far, has ruined their reputation as far as I am concerned. I really do not care if the maker made a mistake or not, my trust in them as a physical bitcoin coin maker is over as far as I am concerned. No matter what the maker says or does afterwards it is over…period.

   Will I hodl onto my Sol Noctis coins? Yes and I will not sweep any btc on them or check as I will treat them the way I treat my one loaded microsoul coin, not loaded.

 

[elmejorrematador]

Definitely compromised, they need to be on that list.

    Yes…Sol Noctis is one of the most beautiful coins one can get for their collection and I was amongst the many that were excited when I was able to buy some directly from the manufacturer.

     And yes the amount loaded on these coins is only 0.001 BTC which by far is not much.

    Yet, we as physical coin collectors place a great deal of trust on the maker of physical coins and the process on which the paper wallets are made and how they are handled. We can never be 100% sure if any coin maker has ever held onto the private keys or not and only time will tell us if this is so or not. There is always the risk that coins can be swept. The only way with 0% risk is if you make your own.

    In the case of Sol Noctis, this one coin incident that we know of so far, has ruined their reputation as far as I am concerned. I really do not care if the maker made a mistake or not, my trust in them as a physical bitcoin coin maker is over as far as I am concerned. No matter what the maker says or does afterwards it is over…period.

   Will I hodl onto my Sol Noctis coins? Yes and I will not sweep any btc on them or check as I will treat them the way I treat my one loaded microsoul coin, not loaded.

 

[krogothmanhattan]

On another note, why would anyone want to add extra BTC to a loaded coin? That is a big no no.

First off, your loaded amount will not reflect the value of the face of the coin.

Last but not least you are taking chances your coins will be lost like this gentleman did with Sol Noctis.

I had a fellow collector tell me he loaded an infinitum coin with 1BTC!  He swept the coin off right away once I made him aware of the risk.

If you want to hodl onto your precious coins, use a hardware wallet such as trezor or create your own paper wallet.

Never ever attempt to store or buy any btc on a loaded coin that you are not willing to risk on losing.

You want to send friend or family btc, buy them a Trezor, set it up for them and once they have it, send them the btc.

If it’s a minute amount,say $10 worth of btc, send it to their hot wallet such as Mycellium.

Not your keys not your coin is a saying so true.

The new saying we should use is, not your self made keys, someday possibly not your coins anymore!

[guigui371]

Almost two months later, do we have more information regarding the Sol Noctis ?
I understand that the loaded amounbt is just about $10, but still it would be great to know what happened.
@Lesbian Cow any news ?

[Lesbian Cow]

Almost two months later, do we have more information regarding the Sol Noctis ?
I understand that the loaded amounbt is just about $10, but still it would be great to know what happened.
@Lesbian Cow any news ?

Not really.  As mentioned in my previous post, I shipped the questionable coin to TWC for them to inspect.  I sent 2 packages to Europe that day, they both left NY customs on 25 May.  The other package scanned for the first time in Europe late last week, this one has not yet scanned.  Back in May US parcels to Europe were getting loaded on ships and sitting around on both ends.  I am hoping it shows up in Poland shortly.  I am so sick of the Vids.

I will update when I have an update.

Cheers all!

[snarfbag]

On another note, why would anyone want to add extra BTC to a loaded coin? That is a big no no.

I'll address a a couple points because I feel this is patronizing. My father is elderly and was the recipient of the compromised coin. This was a quick way to load up a little extra in a way that he could not easily lose, or have to deal with technology like a Trezor.

First off, your loaded amount will not reflect the value of the face of the coin.

So what? It was a gift meant for him to eventually peel. Not everyone is a collector in the sense of trading back and forth and trying to keep the coin pure. I get that it is important to you, but not to him or me.

Last but not least you are taking chances your coins will be lost like this gentleman did with Sol Noctis.

What if all the Bull coins were swept later if the price were to rise to $100k or more? By your rationale no one should be holding any coins of any significant value. By loading the extra Bitcoin and proving someone still holds the keys I'd call that a favor that may save some headaches years down the road. Loading the extra did not make me lose it since it may have been stolen later anyway. The way you're wording this sentence makes it sound like I had this coming--like the coin being swept is somehow my fault. That worry should not exist with legitimate coin makers.