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Author Topic: Is bitcoin mining a problem of wasting energy? No  (Read 396 times)
mk4
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March 11, 2020, 02:21:18 PM
 #21

Nope, your analyses are off.
The Costs to mine gold, are based on human payroll , equipment costs, petroleum to run the equipment,
all of which have variable factors.
This means the price to mine gold can increase or decrease , but the final decision is always , is the mining currently profitable.

In BTC, Miners with older rigs always stop mining, no more than 2 years after purchase, as the ASICS are no longer profitable.
You confuse a running network with bitcoin earning a profit.
So are you saying that bitcoin mining hardware degrades over time and gold mining hardware doesn't?

PoW miners go bankrupt all of the time,
And businesses go bankrupt all the time. What's your point? Bitcoin mining is a competitive business and industry just as with other industries.

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March 11, 2020, 03:08:17 PM
 #22

How do you relate this to your findings? Currently, miner get paid 12.5Bitcoin for validating new transactions on the Blockchain, which I see as profitable compared to their energy consumption in the process of validation. We should always get some facts straight before share them to other members who understand the system. Bitcoin as PoW algorithm made it more decentralized than others and power consumption matches the reward for the Miners.

What's making you angry? As far as I can read, article shared by OP is supporting PoW (not criticizing it).

Also your math for finding profitability is not including the energy consumed by those miners who tried but couldn't find the block. Only single miner is able to receive block reward+fees, all others waste resources for nothing. Moreover, the fiat value of block reward also acts a determinant for deciding if PoW is efficient system or not because electricity is valued and charged in fiat currencies in every country. The cost of electricity has already made bitcoin mining unfeasible in many countries.

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March 11, 2020, 03:33:49 PM
 #23

Bitcoin is already centralized, Bitmain just splits their over 51% dominance in multiple pools, so the clueless stay clueless.

So.. AntPool + BTC.com = 51%? Math checks out lmao.


4 players can control the Bitcoin network. That's why any changes in consensus, if they reduce the income of miners, are doomed to failure.

Bitcoin consumes most of the energy from mining all cryptocurrencies. Therefore, a dead end.
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March 11, 2020, 04:56:41 PM
 #24

Bitcoin is already centralized, Bitmain just splits their over 51% dominance in multiple pools, so the clueless stay clueless.

So.. AntPool + BTC.com = 51%? Math checks out lmao.


4 players can control the Bitcoin network. That's why any changes in consensus, if they reduce the income of miners, are doomed to failure.

Bitcoin consumes most of the energy from mining all cryptocurrencies. Therefore, a dead end.

1. The 4 mining pools actually needs to coordinate the attack and mutually agree to everything.
2. The attack would work only assuming that the individual miners don't switch off their miners or switch mining pools to prevent the attack.
3. Because the pool owners clearly know that manipulating the chain is going to have a positive effect with the price right? ? ?

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March 11, 2020, 05:01:46 PM
Last edit: March 11, 2020, 05:13:34 PM by Khaos77
 #25

Nope, your analyses are off.
The Costs to mine gold, are based on human payroll , equipment costs, petroleum to run the equipment,
all of which have variable factors.
This means the price to mine gold can increase or decrease , but the final decision is always , is the mining currently profitable.

In BTC, Miners with older rigs always stop mining, no more than 2 years after purchase, as the ASICS are no longer profitable.
You confuse a running network with bitcoin earning a profit.
So are you saying that bitcoin mining hardware degrades over time and gold mining hardware doesn't?

Lifespan of an ASIC less than ~2 years.

https://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/mining/articles/mining-fleet-100000.html
Caterpillar’s first 793A-series truck was put into service at Sierrita in 1991, and is one of five 793s on site that have worked in excess of 100,000 hours

*  8760 hours in a year.

So the Caterpillar’s first 793A-series truck used in Gold Mining has lasted over 11 Years.  Cheesy
Still running by the way. Smiley

PoW miners go bankrupt all of the time,
And businesses go bankrupt all the time. What's your point? Bitcoin mining is a competitive business and industry just as with other industries.

Point is , Bitmain is the most profitable due to having ASICS months before the rest ,
so it is a rigged game to start, and government Confiscations of BTC to resell can bankrupt even Bitmain.

Miners have to earn profit, the price of bitcoin is held lower than the breakeven point by constant bitcoin resales from government confiscations of criminals. No profit more miners go bankrupt and eventually even bitmain goes bankrupt.
Bitcoin then enters a death sprial and hodlers are locked at $0 forever.

In no other industry do drug dealers hold enough cars or jewelry or whatever to crush the world supply needs, except for bitcoin.
Government Confiscation is the 1 security flaw that bitcoin can't beat, only by decreasing the price per bitcoin to ~$100 can the markets liquidity withstand the constant sell offs. but at $100 per bitcoin , the miners all go out of business hashrate plummets, and hodlers just become morons.



4 players can control the Bitcoin network. That's why any changes in consensus, if they reduce the income of miners, are doomed to failure.

Bitcoin consumes most of the energy from mining all cryptocurrencies. Therefore, a dead end.

1. The 4 mining pools actually needs to coordinate the attack and mutually agree to everything.
2. The attack would work only assuming that the individual miners don't switch off their miners or switch mining pools to prevent the attack.
3. Because the pool owners clearly know that manipulating the chain is going to have a positive effect with the price right? ? ?

1.  Yep, Only 4 guys need to agree, kind of funny btc is trusting a mere 4 guys for everything
2.  Yes the attack will work, because the only way the individual miners know to switch is after the attack.  Tongue
3.  You assume the pool owners want BTC to win, each halving changes the economic profit of 3 coins BTC, BCH, & BSV
     Once BCH or BSV become more profitable due to more transactions as rewards drop, their could be a mutual consensus
     between operators than getting rid of btc , would make BCH or BSV even more profitable, with a simple 1 time 51% attack on btc.
     Miners Greed was  included in Satoshi design, but he did not expect them to be mining 3 different coins, which means their support
     will sway to the most profitable for them, not others.
     Ask yourself , why are the miners keeping BCH & BSV alive and kicking , it is not to help you or btc hodlers.
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March 11, 2020, 05:39:21 PM
 #26

It is a wasting because it could be done with staking, that way the could shouldn't need miners.

Yes, but it could end up making Bitcoin centralized. Think about it. Imagine being a huge exchange with a lot of PoS coins in custody? Solely from being a whale, you automatically have a significant influence over the network. In contrast to PoW whereas you'd actually have to dedicate money to buy hardware.
This is a fair point. PoS is not better at everything, just like the Lightning Network. Moreover, I don't think the attitude of reducing electricity consumption is something we should adopt in general as a strategy to fight global warming. Reducing waste makes sense, but energy consumption seems to be something different. Perhaps it's just because I was influenced by the idea of the Kardashev scale where energy plays a crucial role. I am not a climate skeptic, at the same time, so I think that something should be done. Namely, we should work on clean energy solutions. Some research suggests that mining largely uses clean energy, by the way.

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March 11, 2020, 05:47:22 PM
 #27

Was thinking of this the other day: What happens to these miners when all 21 bitcoins have been mined? Will they just stop mining because they will no longer be paid from receiving those block rewards?
The answer is no.
They will still be paid by the miners fee namely the transactions fees which still remain quite high. I watched one video showing how one btc pool receives $500k per block on those fees alone.

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March 11, 2020, 10:04:36 PM
 #28


The Money losing Bitcoin running from your basement, will be neither secure or strong.
And a $50 electric radiator would be better at heating your basement.  Cheesy


Old mining rigs are long ROIed, they still generate coins when they work as a heater, and since most of the electricity that is consumed by mining rigs become heat, if 1/10 of those electricity can become bitcoin, it is still more efficient than a pure heater. And that's why the network will never go down in hash rate, because old mining rigs can still work as a heater

Of course I still think the waste of electricity is huge in POW, I do see benefits of POS, but that model is quite close to company share holder, need to have further discussion about its implication


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March 12, 2020, 07:48:27 AM
 #29

Today one of the things we can do with the use of cryptocurrency and your computer is the mining many people getting mine some bitcoin to their computer and as a reward they can get a bitcoin. Still, there are people does not believe the capability of the mining because they think it is just a waste of time it can be possible because if you don't have enough or capability to mine you will lose your money too because mining is taking a lot of time that your computer is on and that consumption of energy is too large the coin you earned are not enough to pay your bills but if you are in a country with low market price of electricity and you have a good computer to mine you can now make a lot of profit every single day and one of the things you need to do is to maintain your pc to make more efficient earnings.

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March 12, 2020, 09:07:56 AM
 #30

I believe this depends on who is doing the job, some people are experts at what they do. besides there are many other ways to earn bitcoin, one may desire to invest them and double profit or even trade them.
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March 12, 2020, 09:30:05 AM
 #31

Most of the mining is done through excess energy produced mostly by "green" energy sources. The carbon footprint of Bitcoin is probably a lot lower from what some services provide, as they use the average carbon footprint for the industrial sector. These results are not scientific correct.
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March 12, 2020, 11:21:16 AM
 #32


           Based on what I see so far, it is really a waste of energy. Mining nowadays are not really cost efficient, because instead of earning, it will only boost your energy consumption and at the same time not that really beneficial for the environment. We all know that theres a lot of improvisation needed to build mining rigs and it is also proved that it needs more energy, also don't tell me those equipments doesn't need maintenance?
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March 12, 2020, 02:37:35 PM
 #33


           Based on what I see so far, it is really a waste of energy. Mining nowadays are not really cost efficient, because instead of earning, it will only boost your energy consumption and at the same time not that really beneficial for the environment. We all know that theres a lot of improvisation needed to build mining rigs and it is also proved that it needs more energy, also don't tell me those equipments doesn't need maintenance?
- When they consider this in the role of someone who does not invest in bitcoin mining, we will probably feel this is a waste of energy, environmental pollution and not profitable when the costs of mining are rising too fast but the views of some individuals are unlikely to provide a reasonable answer. Mining bitcoin will waste energy or not, it depends on the benefits we get, complaining about environmental pollution, so many industries are creating worse things, Bitcoin mining is only a negligible part

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March 12, 2020, 02:53:24 PM
 #34

I can't agree that it is problem of wasting energy. Our problem is what we don't use alternative resources of energy which are eco-friendly.
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March 12, 2020, 02:59:37 PM
 #35

It is a wasting because it could be done with staking, that way the could shouldn't need miners. And i think this is why ETH is moving to PoS.

And it's a waste if the energy cost is bigger than the mined coins...
Sometimes it's just a waste of energy because the thing is the amount of bitcoin that they are mined was just bigger than the electricity bill of the used energy by the bitcoin mining so I say that somehow it is just a waste of energy because there are a lot of kilowatts that is used by but not suitable enough for the bitcoin mining so it is kind of wasting some of our energy especially right now that the electricity supply was not enough to sustain all the needs of the people.
I feel like it also depends on the rigs used by the miners. I read back in the days that people can use ASIC miner rather than using their usual GPU for mining Bitcoin. In terms of consumption energy, I am not sure if in the future we could make renewable energy to power up these mining so that it could at least lessen the usage of electricity, because in some countries that becomes the barrier for people to mine cryptos.

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March 12, 2020, 05:25:25 PM
 #36

You can actually use energy wisely , the renewable sources of energy are not new , people are using them since a long time , it does need a healthy investment at first but at the same time prices of these renewable resources are getting more and more convenient.
It does use a lot of energy , the mining causes a lot of inconvenience for the people, there are people who illegally are doing it and some are even putting up the softwares in computers of cyber cafes just to protect themselves of the hefty price of electricity bill.

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March 12, 2020, 10:04:26 PM
 #37

It is a wasting because it could be done with staking, that way the could shouldn't need miners. And i think this is why ETH is moving to PoS.

And it's a waste if the energy cost is bigger than the mined coins...

Actually I always saw it as "freezing" energy, you can always re-spend it later on and keep it circling, yeah bitcoin uses this much energy as of now but then in the future you can always keep that energy working.

Or maybe I just don't understand the true benefit of PoS
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March 13, 2020, 06:06:09 AM
 #38

You can actually use energy wisely , the renewable sources of energy are not new , people are using them since a long time , it does need a healthy investment at first but at the same time prices of these renewable resources are getting more and more convenient.
It does use a lot of energy , the mining causes a lot of inconvenience for the people, there are people who illegally are doing it and some are even putting up the softwares in computers of cyber cafes just to protect themselves of the hefty price of electricity bill.

there is no denying that the electrical energy used is huge, big in everything. both of the consumption and the price incurred because electricity costs are very expensive. I strongly agree with the above that to immediately make changes with other resources, even though at the beginning it will cost a fair amount, but for the next trip it will feel very profitable. there is no time to say late for changes as long as the price of electricity will continue to increase in price.

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March 13, 2020, 07:32:55 AM
 #39

It is a wasting because it could be done with staking, that way the could shouldn't need miners. And i think this is why ETH is moving to PoS.

And it's a waste if the energy cost is bigger than the mined coins...
You have a valid point but I always feel that PoS makes richer people more richer and poor gets poorer. The rich can always buy more coins and stake to get more coins and it's similar to gaining interest in money in bank. While in PoW there are a lot of things involved and you can't just mine more because you are rich.

Bitcoin could be mined with a simple GPU in starting and you don't have to buy anything to grab some bitcoins while to grab PoS coins you must buy those coins first and then you can earn interest on that. Plus, PoS gives much more power to someone if they can grab a big amount of coins from the market and loosing the actually meaning of decentralization.

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March 13, 2020, 12:14:16 PM
 #40

It is a wasting because it could be done with staking, that way the could shouldn't need miners. And i think this is why ETH is moving to PoS.

And it's a waste if the energy cost is bigger than the mined coins...
You have a valid point but I always feel that PoS makes richer people more richer and poor gets poorer. The rich can always buy more coins and stake to get more coins and it's similar to gaining interest in money in bank. While in PoW there are a lot of things involved and you can't just mine more because you are rich.

Bitcoin could be mined with a simple GPU in starting and you don't have to buy anything to grab some bitcoins while to grab PoS coins you must buy those coins first and then you can earn interest on that. Plus, PoS gives much more power to someone if they can grab a big amount of coins from the market and loosing the actually meaning of decentralization.

Only the rich can afford to mine BTC.
The average guy can't even afford the ASIC , much less the electricity, warehouses ,  or support staff.

People go bankrupt all of the time trying to mine btc.

You have never heard of anyone going bankrupt Staking a Coin.

The rich getting richer is pure myth in Proof of Stake.

In PoS coins with low inflation model, ie: ZEIT
the users has to sell coins to profit and it decentralizes ownership.

In PoS coins with high inflation models, ie: Sprouts
the supply grows so fast it always crashes the price to nothing.

So another False PoS Myth Busted.  Smiley


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