Bobby Lee is back, with Ballet (and new products!)

[bobbyclee]

Hi all,

As many of you may know, I've been busy this past year with my new startup, Ballet. (https://www.balletcrypto.com/) I sold BTCC in early 2018 and took a sabbatical year off. Then in January 2019, I brought together several of the best people from BTCC and started Ballet. (And yes: all of my staff from the BTCC Mint business is with me at Ballet today.)

We launched the REAL Series physical cryptocurrency wallet late last year. It's a 100% non-electronic physical cold storage wallet that serves as a bearer asset. This product takes architectural inspiration from the Casascius physical bitcoins pioneered by Mike Caldwell. We added several important features: BIP38 two-factor key generation (2FKG), multicurrency support, and a convenient mobile app (called Ballet Crypto) to allow for easy depositing, sending, and management of multiple wallets. (And a truly undiscovered secret feature: our Ballet Crypto mobile app actually has GREAT support for traditional paper wallets and physical bitcoins, allowing you to split out all of Bitcoin’s fork coins, individually send out small amounts, etc. Give it a try!)

Last month we launched the Ballet PRO Series, which are custom-made for each buyer. You choose your own passphrase and send the BIP38 intermediate code to us, and we manufacture customized wallets that can only be decrypted by your passphrase. Further, for true disaster recovery needs, we provide three (3) identical wallets in each set, so that users can safely place these wallets in multiple locations, to prevent loss from theft, fire, and other natural disasters.

Our company has an official account here on BitcoinTalk: BalletCrypto (same as our Twitter handle)
My colleague Robert will be posting from that account. Stay tuned.

Last question:
What new products would you like to see us launch?  (Hint: we already have a really cool new product that will launch very soon... Can you guess what it is?)

It’s good to be back here on this BitcoinTalk forum!

thanks,
Bobby

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[bobbyclee]

Hint: this new product is something that this audience would like (something that you're familiar with...)

[ChiBitCTy]

Good to see ya here Bobby! I’m the guy on Twitter who suggested Ballet create physical crypto, a round 2 of BTCC collectibles essentially. BTCC did such a good job with its coins, bars, chips, different metals used etc. I think everyone would love to see more of that type of stuff.

As we spoke about on Twitter briefly... I would absolutely love to see something like a 3 coin chip set (loved the cases you used for the BTCC chips ) that had funded Bitcoin , Litecoin, and Monero chips. I of course would love to see a multitude of Ballet bitcoin chips ..but that 3 coin set would be so unique.  With your brother and Pony both being collectors themselves, guessing they’d like seeing something like this!

My guess ..you already took my advice

[buckrogers]

Hi Bobby,

Let’s see some more virgin loaded coins and chips or on “something different and new media” if possible.


Big fan of all the freshly loaded chips and coins that came straight from newly mined blocks  


Thanks!

[Hhampuz]

Got myself a Ballet and have been impressed and happy with it! Can't wait to see what you've got up your sleeve but if it's anything like loaded Chips we are all in for a treat. Happy to see you back bobby .

[iBitcoinHongKong8]

Hi Bobby,

Let’s see some more virgin loaded coins and chips or on “something different and new media” if possible.


Big fan of all the freshly loaded chips and coins that came straight from newly mined blocks  


Thanks!

This....DEFINITELY virgin BTC mined to something physical would be my hope and request!

iBHK8

[OgNasty]

What new products would you like to see us launch?

Anything with any sort of ROI, regardless of how low.

[ChiBitCTy]

Good to see ya here Bobby! I’m the guy on Twitter who suggested Ballet create physical crypto, a round 2 of BTCC collectibles essentially. BTCC did such a good job with its coins, bars, chips, different metals used etc. I think everyone would love to see more of that type of stuff.

The first series was great quality. The second series was terrible If I recall correctly.

Personally I'd love to see the usage of precious metals instead of chips/cards .

The only series with issues that I am aware of is the very last one, which was the quality control issues with shipping.

Sure I would love to see PM products as well, but no reason you can’t have both. Chips are more affordable and definitely very popular. So why not both! More the merrier

[rdbase]

Love the look of the first run of ballet wallets.
Doing a promotion of one here which closes on Saturday: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5223732.msg54010021#msg54010021
Really interested to know what the next iteration of this wallet could be?
Digital display to follow your competitors would be a major selling point for me.
Then I would be just keeping it for myself.
But still love the way these ones look and having it signed was a nice touch of class!

[tothemoonsands]

I know I am going against the grain here, but personally I do not want to see any more virgin BTC loaded products. BTCC Mint bottled lightning with their amazing products, and I think creating new series in that vein would take away from it. Instead, there are so many other form factors or innovations that Ballet could pursue. I love how Ballet is bringing collectibles to the masses, and I’d like to see that progress. Just my two Satoshis!

[SatsLife]

physical coins you can make your own private key pair with?

[Hellot]

Anyone can create BIP38 encrypted wallets for free using https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org
  
Please go back to making coins funded by Bitcoin coinbase rewards.  It was unique and unmatched in the physical crypto world.  If you made them using our own keys that would be a step up.  Ballet is not a step up or improvement.
  

[tothemoonsands]

Anyone can create BIP38 encrypted wallets for free using https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org
  
Please go back to making coins funded by Bitcoin coinbase rewards.  It was unique and unmatched in the physical crypto world.  If you made them using our own keys that would be a step up.  Ballet is not a step up or improvement.
  

I would argue Ballet is an improvement because it makes it easy for those just getting into crypto. It’s an all in one ready to go offline hardware wallet. A newbie can’t be expected to browse github, determine legitimacy, properly secure a device for offline key generation, print said keys, destroy printer cache, and then store these keys safely for long term (paper won’t work, and metal requires additional steps and items)....all of that OR simply buy a Ballet.

In my opinion, it’s more important to go after the broader market rather than appeal to collectors. The former creates growth, the latter is mere fan-service.

[K-Paxian]

Anyone can create BIP38 encrypted wallets for free using https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org
  
Please go back to making coins funded by Bitcoin coinbase rewards.  It was unique and unmatched in the physical crypto world.  If you made them using our own keys that would be a step up.  Ballet is not a step up or improvement.
  

I would argue Ballet is an improvement because it makes it easy for those just getting into crypto. It’s an all in one ready to go offline hardware wallet. A newbie can’t be expected to browse github, determine legitimacy, properly secure a device for offline key generation, print said keys, destroy printer cache, and then store these keys safely for long term (paper won’t work, and metal requires additional steps and items)....all of that OR simply buy a Ballet.

In my opinion, it’s more important to go after the broader market rather than appeal to collectors. The former creates growth, the latter is mere fan-service.

Why couldn't paper wallet work for long term?

PS. I like Ballet and thinking about purchasing few pcs

[bobbyclee]

physical coins you can make your own private key pair with?

Are you referring to something similar to our PRO Series offering?
https://www.balletcrypto.com/en/pro

Anyone can create BIP38 encrypted wallets for free using https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org
 
Please go back to making coins funded by Bitcoin coinbase rewards.  It was unique and unmatched in the physical crypto world.  If you made them using our own keys that would be a step up.  Ballet is not a step up or improvement.
 

I would argue Ballet is an improvement because it makes it easy for those just getting into crypto. It’s an all in one ready to go offline hardware wallet. A newbie can’t be expected to browse github, determine legitimacy, properly secure a device for offline key generation, print said keys, destroy printer cache, and then store these keys safely for long term (paper won’t work, and metal requires additional steps and items)....all of that OR simply buy a Ballet.

In my opinion, it’s more important to go after the broader market rather than appeal to collectors. The former creates growth, the latter is mere fan-service.

Thank you!  You've nailed it.

You've nicely described all of the reasons I jumped back in last year to start this company.
The mission is to grow the crypto space, and bring in more new people -- by making it super easy, for regular non-technical people to actually hold their own keys, and manage their crypto in a truly offline fashion, that's simple and reliable for them. That's the vision for Ballet; to make cryptocurrency accessible to everyone.

Having said that, the new product that I'm teasing now, is actually aimed at collectors -- which is why we're planning to reveal here on Bitcoin Talk forum first.

thanks,
Bobby

I would argue Ballet is an improvement because it makes it easy for those just getting into crypto. It’s an all in one ready to go offline hardware wallet. A newbie can’t be expected to browse github, determine legitimacy, properly secure a device for offline key generation, print said keys, destroy printer cache, and then store these keys safely for long term (paper won’t work, and metal requires additional steps and items)....all of that OR simply buy a Ballet.

In my opinion, it’s more important to go after the broader market rather than appeal to collectors. The former creates growth, the latter is mere fan-service.

Why couldn't paper wallet work for long term?

PS. I like Ballet and thinking about purchasing few pcs

"paper wallets" that are made of just plain paper is fragile and weak, and is not suitable for long-term storage.

These are the issues that come to mind:
1) water damage (running ink, paper falling apart)
2) mold damage
3) getting chewed up / eaten by rodents (yes, it happens!)
4) fire damage

That's why some people chose to laminate their paper wallets, to prevent #1 and #2.
Others choose to backup their recovery seeds onto steel plates, which is an extra burden.

and of course, Fire is the ultimate enemy, that is truly hard to guard against without using redundancy.  (other than Gold, nothing on earth is truly 100% fire-proof.)

thanks,
Bobby

Love the look of the first run of ballet wallets.
Doing a promotion of one here which closes on Saturday: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5223732.msg54010021#msg54010021
Really interested to know what the next iteration of this wallet could be?
Digital display to follow your competitors would be a major selling point for me.
Then I would be just keeping it for myself.
But still love the way these ones look and having it signed was a nice touch of class!

You mentioned "digital displays" on the wallets...

I want to take this opportunity to address the topic of electronic components in wallets, and share these thoughts with all of you.

Throughout my life, I have always been a gadget guy. I'm a tech guy, I'm a geek, and I'm proud of it!
So all along, I always try to buy the latest gadgets, smartphones, and electronic devices.  I guess many people out there are the same, which is why you mentioned about digital displays (either LCD, organic LED, or e-Ink displays).

However, in designing the architecture for Ballet products, I purposely took the reverse path: which is to AVOID electronics and electronic components.

Why? It's because at the end of the day, electronics are fragile and not resilient. They are prone to failures, they have battery/charging requirements (which creates issues), and any electronics of the "latest technology", by definition, will go out of style and become obsolete. Electronics don't age well. (Just think about if I gave you a floppy disk or a CD-ROM today, how will you get the data off of it?  and that's assuming the data on it is still there; not damaged and recoverable.)

And worst of all, secure chip and electronics circuitry usually have bugs, which necessitates firmware upgrades. So they're not really all that secure after all!  These firmware upgrades are always a nightmare; you just never know if it'll go smoothly. (sometimes, the devices won't even operate and mandates you to upgrade the firmware to proceed.)

My conclusion is that the most reliable way to hold data is to make it visually readable, without the use of any technology. This is why Ballet wallets store your encrypted private keys (EPK) and the BIP38 passphrase in simple human-readable text. We use fixed-width fonts to improve readability. And for the EPK and the deposit address, we even also show it in QR code, to make it machine-readable as well.

Imagine if the private key components are stored on a secure element chip, or in a NFC or RFID chip. If anything goes slightly wrong, it'll be practically impossible to extract the private keys.
- Have you seen NFC and RFID antennas break, rendering the device useless?  YES, I have...
- Have you ever bricked a device during a botched firmware upgrade?  YES, I have...
- Have you ever had to throw away a device because the built-in battery died / melted / corroded?  YES, I have...
- Have you ever had trouble finding the necessary cables and connectors, to connect a really old / legacy device?  YES, I have...

My conclusion is that for truly reliable long-term storage, I do NOT want the data to be stored on electronic components. (Even a USB flash memory stick or SSD is a bad idea...)

Rather, I want it to be always visually accessible, which is what Ballet offers: a human-readable vision-based architecture to store your private key components, stored in a tamper-evident fashion.

So in the years and decades to come, even in my own old age, I know that the private key data on Ballet wallets will always be accessible and retrievable.
As long as the wallet is not lost or itself damaged/destroyed, then no technology advancements or passage of time will stop Ballet from working.

For these reasons, we don't plan on adding Digital Displays to our physical cold-storage wallets.  Hope that makes sense.

thanks,
Bobby






 

Anyone can create BIP38 encrypted wallets for free using https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org
 
Please go back to making coins funded by Bitcoin coinbase rewards.  It was unique and unmatched in the physical crypto world.  If you made them using our own keys that would be a step up.  Ballet is not a step up or improvement.
 

Back during BTCC Mint days, the reason we didn't make coins tied to user-provided BIP38 passphrase is because such a coin would by nature be dependent on BOTH remembering the user's chosen passphrase, in ADDITION to trusting BTCC to have made the coins correctly. Worst of all, this kind of password-protected coin would NO LONGER be a bearer asset.

at BTCC Mint, I've always strongly emphasized the bearer asset nature of our coins and bars and chips.
Any authentic BTCC Mint collectible you see in the public / secondary market, can be trusted to be valuable and funded accordingly.  There's no external dependencies, and there's no risk that the coins is still unfunded. (which is why I emphasized on loading every coin BEFORE we sell / ship it.)

So the issue is:
How important is the bear asset nature of loaded coins?

or is it better to have it password protected (with passphrase provided by user, and now depends on user to remember & backup that passphrase?)

thanks,
Bobby

[bitcoiner24h]

Ballet wallets and they are wonderful, but I can't find the ETH Ballet in amazon
when you reveal the surprise of that mysterious collectible? 

[SatsLife]

Back during BTCC Mint days, the reason we didn't make coins tied to user-provided BIP38 passphrase is because such a coin would by nature be dependent on BOTH remembering the user's chosen passphrase, in ADDITION to trusting BTCC to have made the coins correctly. Worst of all, this kind of password-protected coin would NO LONGER be a bearer asset.

at BTCC Mint, I've always strongly emphasized the bearer asset nature of our coins and bars and chips.
Any authentic BTCC Mint collectible you see in the public / secondary market, can be trusted to be valuable and funded accordingly.  There's no external dependencies, and there's no risk that the coins is still unfunded. (which is why I emphasized on loading every coin BEFORE we sell / ship it.)

So the issue is:
How important is the bear asset nature of loaded coins?

or is it better to have it password protected (with passphrase provided by user, and now depends on user to remember & backup that passphrase?)

thanks,
Bobby


[/quote]

physical coins you can make your own private key pair with?

Are you referring to something similar to our PRO Series offering?
https://www.balletcrypto.com/en/pro

How are the PRO series different than the reasons you listed for not doing them back in BTCC mint days?

btw, "Triple Ackup" on your website doesnt exude tremendous confidence.

[bobbyclee]

How are the PRO series different than the reasons you listed for not doing them back in BTCC mint days?

btw, "Triple Ackup" on your website doesnt exude tremendous confidence.

As Ballet is making wallets, since a portion of our users do want to pick their own passphrase, we built the PRO Series to cater to this audience.
As we know that when loaded with crypto, the PRO Series wallets are NOT bearer instruments, so we attempt to make that very clear to users, with extra messaging on the backside of the card, as well as on the packaging.

Most importantly, we changed the color to Sapphire Blue, to distinguish the PRO Series wallets from the bearer asset class of REAL Series, which remains bare stainless steel color.

Back during BTCC Mint days, we weren't making wallets so to speak, but rather just loaded physical coins. For that, we decided that it was important to make them universally as bearer assets (and thus without any external passphrase dependencies).

and yes, thanks for catching our typo mistake on our Pro Series web page. It was supposed to say "Triple Backup".
It's already fixed, and I've already asked my engineering team to investigate and come up with a plan to prevent / minimize these typographical errors in the future. My apologies to you for this unprofessional typo on our website.

thanks,
Bobby

[SatsLife]

Thank you for the prompt response and distinction from Ballet's wallets to yesterday's BTCC mint. I know I would be interested in a bearer asset coin collectable if offered by Ballet. Especially considering you mentioned BTCC mint team is still with you.

[Hellot]

Having said that, the new product that I'm teasing now, is actually aimed at collectors -- which is why we're planning to reveal here on Bitcoin Talk forum first.

thanks,
Bobby

This is encouraging!