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figmentofmyass
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April 21, 2020, 09:34:06 PM
 #21

Shale oil producers cant just simply pause their production. If they pause it costs to start again are enormous. 

+1. this is one reason why the oil market will continue being really wonky into next month. shutting down a well is super expensive and doing so can apparently do permanent damage to the oil field too.

that creates big incentives for producers to keep pumping full steam ahead---which also means more dumping of oil futures to hedge against production, even below $0. this is obviously unsustainable for long periods of time. something has gotta give.

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April 21, 2020, 11:14:20 PM
 #22

Somebody help me understand. So Oil prices took a deep dive to the lowest price in 20 years. But in most countries, the price of gasoline in most countries hasn't even dropped. Why is this so?

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figmentofmyass
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April 21, 2020, 11:50:09 PM
Merited by fillippone (1)
 #23

Somebody help me understand. So Oil prices took a deep dive to the lowest price in 20 years. But in most countries, the price of gasoline in most countries hasn't even dropped. Why is this so?

gas prices have been steadily dropping over the past few weeks. it doesn't happen all at once since gas stations price it based on their actual costs, not the price of futures contracts.

fuel taxes (at least in the USA) are also priced in cents per gallon, not %, so taxes become disproportionately large as prices drop. take california for example: state/federal excise taxes add ~66 cents per gallon, plus local taxes where applicable, no matter what the base price is.

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April 22, 2020, 12:23:23 AM
 #24

Just this moment where oil become nothing without have value because many bigger countries keep to product of oil around the world, but I am still confused with my country why price keep the same and not down, how ever oil world price going down but my government not give access to make oil keep going down.

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April 22, 2020, 12:23:34 AM
 #25

I think that falling oil prices have the following reasons. First, due to the COVID-19 epidemic, many countries restrict people from leaving their homes. Therefore, the world demand for gasoline dropped sharply. Second, the oil producing countries cannot close their oil production companies because the cost to close the companies and open the companiest after the epidemic is over is huge. So they chose the solution that produces oil as always. Therefore, the amount of oil in the storage is very large. So I think these are the main reasons for the significant drop in oil prices.
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April 22, 2020, 04:12:59 AM
Merited by fillippone (1)
 #26

Somebody help me understand. So Oil prices took a deep dive to the lowest price in 20 years. But in most countries, the price of gasoline in most countries hasn't even dropped. Why is this so?

The most reasonable reason why the price of fuel oil in various countries has not decreased even though the price of world crude oil dropped. There are several factors that determine the selling price of BBM as a basis for calculation. The main components of this calculation are the price of crude oil and the dollar exchange rate. While the other components are distribution costs, storage costs, margins, and others. One thing that should not be ignored is the period of importing crude oil for raw materials for producing BBM.

The average crude oil currently produced to be sorted into fuel is the crude oil that was imported 2 months ago when the price of crude oil was still high. So, of course, the calculation of fuel prices still refers to the price of oil in February instead of using the current price. Current prices are only used for the calculation of fuel prices over the next 2 months. That is the reason why fuel prices have not yet come down. Plus the current high dollar exchange rate makes price reductions even harder to realize. Then it is predicted that a new decline around May and June can be adjusted prices.

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April 22, 2020, 06:29:48 AM
Last edit: April 22, 2020, 06:44:23 AM by fillippone
Merited by The Sceptical Chymist (4), logfiles (1)
 #27

Somebody help me understand. So Oil prices took a deep dive to the lowest price in 20 years. But in most countries, the price of gasoline in most countries hasn't even dropped. Why is this so?

The most reasonable reason why the price of fuel oil in various countries has not decreased even though the price of world crude oil dropped. There are several factors that determine the selling price of BBM as a basis for calculation. The main components of this calculation are the price of crude oil and the dollar exchange rate. While the other components are distribution costs, storage costs, margins, and others. One thing that should not be ignored is the period of importing crude oil for raw materials for producing BBM.

The average crude oil currently produced to be sorted into fuel is the crude oil that was imported 2 months ago when the price of crude oil was still high. So, of course, the calculation of fuel prices still refers to the price of oil in February instead of using the current price. Current prices are only used for the calculation of fuel prices over the next 2 months. That is the reason why fuel prices have not yet come down. Plus the current high dollar exchange rate makes price reductions even harder to realize. Then it is predicted that a new decline around May and June can be adjusted prices.

Yes and No.
Yes there are many other factor to include in computation when assessing impact on petrol station prices. Mainly taxes. Where I live those are more than 50% of the final price, hence the "industrial price of gasoline" has little effect on the final prices, as you said there are many more margins, costs, taxes and excises to be added. As @figmentofmyass mentioned in his post, most taxes are actually excises, so a fixed amount per liter, and their toll on final prices has grown dramatically lately.
Of course in many other world region the FX aspect of a devaluing currency can play a major role in that dynamic also, I have no direct experience of that being in the EUR area, but of course it is true for many regions.


The No part is regarding the industrial price itself. This is determined by some kind of "spot" (meaning "real time") price indicators. So the price at which the products are sold is always tied somehow to the current price of oil. There are many agencies to provide such indicators, one of the prominent being Platts. The point is: what is real time? In the past two days the first WTI future was NOT included in this definition of price. So the fall in that particular instrument had NO IMPACT in the industrial price. This is something I already pointed out here, a few post above in this very threrad.

There is simply  too much OIL.
And too many non-OPEC producers (USA and Russia) are flooding the market with OIL.
OPEC is non anymore the powerhouse it used to be.
And also it's market share is a fraction of what it used to be years ago. Now the USA alone have a production roughly at 50% of OPEC volumes.

A few production cuts will be enacted from May 1st. Let's see how it plans out.

Regarding the negative prices the explanation is quite simple. And very much of a short term reasons.

There are several reasons for this.
First of all, the move is due to the future of May, which will stop trading tomorrow.
From Thursday the oil will trade at the June expiration and the price will return to being more "normal" level around 22 dollars.
As mentioned all oil related products (gas, heating oil etc) are already priced on Jun expiry.

But why May contract has dropped so much?

1. The WTI has a single delivery point in Cushing (OK). All the deposits in Cushing are full, so nobody wants to "buy" oil in that location, because the cost of storage is very high.So nobody want to buy May expiry.
2. There are many "financial speculators", that is, subjects who do not want/can in any case get physical oil delivered in Cushing. This causes the fact that these subjects must necessarily close the position before the expiry of the future and therefore are forced to "sell" the future forcibly. so something like a  Long Squeeze.
3. Who are those longs? Apparently Oil ETF say the biggest inflows in history during last week., both in linear and in leveraged flavours. This caused a MASSIVE long positions in front months. So this answer the above: who needed to roll their position selling May futures to buy Jun?
4. The June expiration future has an greater open interest and much larger volumes, so this one is more difficult to move with "few volumes" and in fact has fallen much less.


Of course COVID-19 can be a perfect explanation for the "2020 leg" of the long trend graph you posted above.


Of course June expiry is going down the same path now, as the disruption continues.
As I said the world had never been so full of OIL lately. US  has begun to literally crack Oil our of rocks, russians are desperate to sustain them self, on top of that OPEC is falling apart.
This is a secular trend.
On this secular trend added the Coronavirus.
Major oil consumers are lagging (transportation for obvious reasons are a missing buyers here- air lines in particular, but also industrial users or land transportation).
Many oil producers simply cannot turn the well out, as the costs will be massive, so they keep pumping oil and filling every hole on Earth. Deposits at Cushing, OK (delivery point of US WTI)  are nearly full capacity, OIL tankers are full just anchoring idle outside ports everywhere.
So, this is the temporary trend.

On topo of those trends there was the last technical trend, the less relevant, but the most dramatic relating the May US WTI future Expiry.

Summing up in just two lines: everyone saw low petrol prices, so a lt of investors put money in OIL ETF's. Those ETF saw massive capital inflows in the last weeks. This caused some "smart" ETF manager to hedge themselves not only with JUNE, JUL and AUG contracts, but also with MAY Contracts, that were trading at huge discount (why pay more for the same product?).
Nearing future expiry they HAD to roll the expiry (they are banks after all, they cannot take the physical delivery), so they had to SELL the MAY expiry to buy the JUN expiry (or JULY, or AUG), whatever the price.
THIS sent the price negative to -40 USD.

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April 22, 2020, 07:25:31 AM
 #28

Somebody help me understand. So Oil prices took a deep dive to the lowest price in 20 years. But in most countries, the price of gasoline in most countries hasn't even dropped. Why is this so?

Indeed oil price has taken a deep drive and reached to the lowest level in last 22 years. However, majority of the countries have not seen a single penny less. The reason is simple - government taxes! It's an opportunity to the government to increase the tax on the oil price to fill their own coffers. I can give you a simple example of India. The news is a month old but it would give you a clear understanding on the tax bifurcation on oil.

https://www.mycarhelpline.com/index.php?option=com_latestnews&view=detail&n_id=417&Itemid=10

Hope this helps!

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April 22, 2020, 07:28:57 AM
 #29

Somebody help me understand. So Oil prices took a deep dive to the lowest price in 20 years. But in most countries, the price of gasoline in most countries hasn't even dropped. Why is this so?

In my country we didn't realize a huge drop in the oil price.
There is a small decrease of about 0.20 cents but this is not totally the change that we expected.
The price stays high due to the high taxation that is imposed from the government.
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April 22, 2020, 07:39:36 AM
 #30

Obviously one of the most reasons is about this pandemic has a huge role for the changes in the price of oil. During this global crisis where a limited number of transportations are allowed to be operational as well as production and other business are a force to shutdown temporarily then the demand on oil has been reduced. In order for oil companies to sell, they will do it at a lower price to encourage everyone to purchase their oil.

For now, let us enjoy the low price because after this pandemic the price might become back to the normal price. Good benefits to the consumers but it is really sad to the investors and businessmen that probably they will experience as of now a huge loss.



No, the pandemic is not the main reason. The main reason the disagreement between OPEC and non-OPEC countries. 

The demand was really going down a bit and OPEC countries wanted to decrease production so that the prices wouldn't go down drastically.

I read that some countries don't know what to do with oil surplus so they're loading every single container they have and keep trains fully loaded ready for export. I believe the prices will go down even more.

It's a mixture of the two.

Russia and Saudia Arabia are currently in the midst of a oil price war at the moment. What this has lead to is the two countries continuing to pump out as much oil as possible to stick it to the other. Typically, in a time like this OPEC and other large drillers of oil would have limited the supply of oil to help themselves out to stabilize the price.

The Coronavirus situation isn't helping as some of the biggest users of oil -- Cruises, Airline Companies, etc -- are not using as much oil as usual as a large amount of flights are cancelled due to lack of demand and cruise have been stopped for awhile in the US as well (pretty sure the government is making them stop for like 120 days or so?)

People also don't really understand how the oil futures contracts work as well: I'll try to explain it as best as possible. The futures contracts that went negative (down to -38 per barrel at a point) if held to expiry would force you to have to purchase 1000 barrels of oil at $-37 a barrel. While that sounds perfect, the problem is that no one wants that oil and there's no cheap way to store crude oil. There's a major glut in the market, and you'd kinda just be sitting on product that you'd have to pay to go pickup.

1000 barrels of oil is 42,000 gallons of oil. You'd need like two extra long tractor trailers to go hold that product and then you'd have to store it and find someone to sell it to later. Contracts expired yesterday, April 21st. Which is why people were playing hot potato with it.




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April 22, 2020, 07:41:10 AM
 #31

Well, it was coming just around the corner...
People don't need to use that much oil today (Electric transport, alternative energy).
I just counted for myself, and it appears it's cheaper to get a solar electrostation rather than paying electricity bill 3 - 4 years

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April 22, 2020, 12:24:54 PM
 #32

Okay we get it, less cars, less vehicles traveling so the oil is not that what we really need right now

But, why is the price be looking like this? It is not only the cars that uses oil, we also have a lot of machines that isn't running without the oil

Don't tell me the covid-19 global pandemic cases is inversely proportional with the oil price lol



as of now XRP is worth more than a barrel of oil. Smack it to the face of those people who's shouting that cryptocurrency is soooo VOLATILE  Cheesy





We know that most countries affected by the pandemic implement social restrictions and lockouts that result in reduced oil consumption in all countries, while oil-producing countries must continue to produce so that the contract price of oil in April reaches minus this is the worst event of all time.
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April 22, 2020, 01:59:24 PM
 #33

Its simple, there is no demand for oil across the world, we can say that only cars are not running but we need fuels for other machines but every government keep the required fuels in the stocks so they will use that oil for now and production companies are even willing to give it for free no government is ready to take it because almost every country filled their stock level when it hits $30 range but now it keep falling.
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April 22, 2020, 03:47:49 PM
 #34

I think that falling oil prices have the following reasons. First, due to the COVID-19 epidemic, many countries restrict people from leaving their homes. Therefore, the world demand for gasoline dropped sharply.
Well it is very obvious, from all of the markets falling now the only thing that caused it is the virus, almost everything that is happening now is actually because of the covid-19.

Second, the oil producing countries cannot close their oil production companies because the cost to close the companies and open the companiest after the epidemic is over is huge. So they chose the solution that produces oil as always. Therefore, the amount of oil in the storage is very large. So I think these are the main reasons for the significant drop in oil prices.
There is only significant in the oil price, not in the demand therefore it has nothing to do with the oil price at all. So what if the price hits the ground? If no one will buy it or sell it right now it should be fine. And some of you guys might wonder why is the current price of oil or gas right now have not change yet, simply because it was not from the price were they bought it, in short they were stock.

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April 22, 2020, 05:39:12 PM
 #35

It is not only the cars that uses oil, we also have a lot of machines that isn't running without the oil
There are a lot of things that depend on the oil industry, not just oil for cars and other machines.  Oil refineries are responsible for other kinds of hydrocarbons which are used in lot of other industries if I'm not mistaken. 

I haven't really been keeping abreast of the news lately, and I'm not sure why oil prices have gotten hammered in the past month or so, but it fills my heart with glee that oil is in fact getting slaughtered in the market.  I'm happy that people only have to pay $1.57/gallon of gas near where I live.  That entire sector has been corrupt for decades, and more than a century actually.  But nor do I know how the viral outbreak is playing a part in all this.  I'm kind of thinking that those two things are related, but I'm not sure exactly how.

Its simple, there is no demand for oil across the world
The demand for oil isn't exactly zero, but there might have been a significant drop in it since the coronavirus outbreak.  All around the world, people have been shut up in their homes and probably haven't been doing as much traveling in their cars as they usually do.  If that's one of the contributing factors, I'd expect oil prices to rebound once life starts to get back to normal (whenever that is).  Might not be a bad time to buy some oil stocks, because they're probably good bargains right about now.

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April 22, 2020, 07:51:52 PM
 #36

Somebody help me understand. So Oil prices took a deep dive to the lowest price in 20 years. But in most countries, the price of gasoline in most countries hasn't even dropped. Why is this so?

if im not mistake

this price is from WTI futures

most countries buy oil from Brent
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April 22, 2020, 10:24:21 PM
 #37

There are a lot of things that depend on the oil industry, not just oil for cars and other machines.  Oil refineries are responsible for other kinds of hydrocarbons which are used in lot of other industries if I'm not mistaken.

oil demand = 50% road transportation sector, 11% aviation and shipping. so the bulk of demand is being hit quite hard by the economic halt.

petrochemicals (including plastic feedstocks) = 14%, not nothing, but i assume that plunging general consumer demand and industrial shutdowns should cause a major decline in manufacturer demand for petrochemicals too.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/307194/top-oil-consuming-sectors-worldwide/

I haven't really been keeping abreast of the news lately, and I'm not sure why oil prices have gotten hammered in the past month or so, but it fills my heart with glee that oil is in fact getting slaughtered in the market.  I'm happy that people only have to pay $1.57/gallon of gas near where I live.

i'm happy to see gas prices down 25-30% but frankly i have nowhere to drive anymore and haven't filled my tank in weeks. Cheesy

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April 22, 2020, 11:14:48 PM
 #38

Somebody help me understand. So Oil prices took a deep dive to the lowest price in 20 years. But in most countries, the price of gasoline in most countries hasn't even dropped. Why is this so?

In my country we didn't realize a huge drop in the oil price.
There is a small decrease of about 0.20 cents but this is not totally the change that we expected.
The price stays high due to the high taxation that is imposed from the government.
This is really shit by many governments as many are not going to give any incentive to common peoples same happening in our country they are still selling on very high price and taking very good profit which is not good in this lock down electercity price also very high as they are not adjusting fuel cost as its happening in world.
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April 23, 2020, 03:18:05 AM
 #39

Well I think Covid 19 has some impacts on companies who uses oil in their machines. Some companies stopped their production that's why oil have this all time low price. This virus has gone wild and affect many industries.
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April 23, 2020, 04:06:29 AM
 #40

Don't tell me the covid-19 global pandemic cases is inversely proportional with the oil price lol
Hmm, I can say YES for that. I mean that seems true simply because numbers don't lie. Don't worry, the oil price rollback you are witnessing is not unusual. We also experience here in our country Cheesy. And this happened due to the low demand of people.

So if you have a car, better to get a full tank now before the low price lasts. That's the best move you can do right now. Though it will be useless because you can't totally use it right now due to wide lockdown, but at least you now have a plenty supply when the price go back to normal. The few bucks you save from it is not bad in all fairness.

Well, sad to say for oil companies but I guess their Black Gold weakens at this moment Grin
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